George G

I have the Lyte Brigade 45, with pic sleeve, part of my Ohio collection - and it's 'documented' on my web site. I've seen at least 5 more copies. It's sold on eBay for $20 or less. "Showtime" is the Detroit Emeralds song - decent, but inferior to the original IMO. Not something that would get played in the US soul club scene, but others may think differently. The flip side is a ballad, not really 'sweet', just a slow ballad. The record is borderline soul, more of a nightclub rock/soul mix sound, think of early Three Dog Night. If anyone wants to hear it I can post sound files Saturday. - George

This is NOT a Rite press. Believe me, I've been studying them for more than 30 years. I was wondering if the number has something to do with the date. It does resemble a Pama pressing from Cleveland. There's another pressing plant, name escapes me, that looks like this as well. What's in the dead wax? - George

I'm from the 'other side'. I figured I'd try to put some legs back on this thread in a conversational manner. In two places I've lived (Cleveland and Seattle) the most knowledgable people about local music histories have always been people who are from the cities. The person with the most 'preservationist' knowledge of Cleveland soul music was a white Clevelander who started seeing R&B bands in the early 1960s and wrote about some of that in local papers. Unfortunately he was murdered many years ago, but I've read some of what he wrote and it's pretty amazing detail. There's many layers to the 'guardianship' of culture, and records are only a fraction. Music in the 1960s and even more so the 1970s was more about live shows than the records. Records were often nothing more than a way of padding the resume and getting better gigs, unless you were one of the few percent that actually got some substantial airplay and sales. I've been 'schooled' about Cleveland soul music venues from some people who were major figures there and as I said they talk much more about the live shows, the friendships, the excitement living in the times, the after hours joints, famous artists they saw and met, etc than about their records - if they even had records. I guess that's one question to ask - do people like Tim Brown*and other people who may fancy themselves as guardians or historians have any interest in soul artists who did not cut any records? Why - or why not? Just like I'll never understand what 'Swinging London' was like in 1966, You (and I) can't understand what Lee/Miles or E.105th and Euclid in Cleveland (or Jackson Street in Seattle) was like. That's one way of looking at it. OTOH, I see the reactions of people when they learn their old non-hit records of 30-45 years ago have been played and enjoyed by 1000s of people they've never met. That in of itself is a true 'real life' moment that carries a lot of power. Had there not been a Northern Soul scene, it would never have happened. *Being not of the scene, the only thing I know about Tim Brown is from the price guide, so I am a blank slate when it comes to his level of expertise with this topic.

Some people were drafted, while others joined so they could have more control over what branch/duration of service they had. Rock bands, soul groups, funk bands, were all affected, as just about every group had the shadow of the draft hanging over them. If you had 5 young men in your group, 100% odds that at least one of them would be in the service. People with connections could find ways to avoid it (cue the Creedence Clearwater Revival song Fortunate Son), which I'm sure that some high profile stars did. One way was to join the National Guard - something that previous US President George W Bush did (and got a lot of criticism for, deservedly) - but getting into the Guard took someone to pull strings, it was not easy. A few people tried to get out of it by flunking the physical or ignoring the draft notices. All of which had consequences. Also, there was the college deferment which meant if you stayed in college you could postpone your service - but if you flunked out (a not uncommon event for working musicians), you were called in ASAP. There was no such thing as being exempt for drug addiction - if you were caught using drugs, you got prison, not an exemption! The law came down hard on drug users, especially young musicians, to 'set an example'. The US draft ended two years before I was old enough. - George

Here ya go.... https://www.popsike.c...0125493474.html https://www.popsike.com/DAVID-BOWIE-LOWER-THIRD-Cant-Help-Thinking-MOD-WB-45/130025873677.html

Do you want the US versions of "Rubber Band" and "Free Festival"? The US WB stock/issue copy of "Can't help..." is a legendary rarity, as is the stock/issue "All the Madmen"/"Janine" 45 on US Mercury. I love the MWSTW era Bowie stuff!

This was true for every genre of music - unless you were in NYC looking for doowop. Has nothing to do with regards to soul music vs rockabilly, garage, psych, R&B. It was still true in many places until eBay changed the game forever. Look at an old Jerry Osborn record price guide if you need validation. Pop culture has always been considered disposable in the US. That's hardly a revelation to anyone who's a native. For good or for bad, that's the way it is. - George

Wanted...I have a serious crush on this....missed one here for 300UKP - I'd pay that in a heartbeat And no, I'm not buying it from Les Harris, the only way I'm buying a record from him is if I see it before I buy and I pick it up in person. send PM or email georgeg45@verizon.net

Pay To Play ops are what I call 'em. The 'new' Fraternity records (when Shad O'Shea ran it) did the same kind of deal, AMG probably learned the business model from him. One of the guys involved with AMG was Bill Stith, who was in the Cincinnati group the Covairs with his twin brother. Stith spent some time behind Great World Of Sound/Twin records in Miami but returned home around 1975 for the AMG run. GWS/Twin (now you know how the label got that name) was similar. Brite Star/Bryte seemed to originate the concept - stereotyped as a 'song poem' label, they released a lot of source recordings as well - in their case you gave them the recording and paid them to 'promote' it. Synod on AMG are from Chicago as well. Sub-par commercial rock.

I didn't know that (I do have the CT and R'n'C records). AMG/Pilot Master is one strange operation. The Trans National Funck Co were from Cleveland, so there may be more ties there. I'm still gathering info..... - George

Could someone tell me about this alleged boot of the Imperial Wonders 45? The record was a hit in some places and there were probably several thousand of the original pressings. This is not the first time I've heard about a boot, but I've never seen one - at least not in the US. I don't know anything about the Four Wonders - well, anything that's relevant. They are not the IW, as Al Boyd's 'autobiography' referenced above makes clear. Regarding the phantom album, these were mentioned on the label as hype, there were never any LPs by them or the 9th Street Exit (a real group on which I do have info). - George

There's also two garage 45s by the State Of Mind on Chavis, and a garage 45 by the Tree on Barvis, all of which were found in quantity around 1980. I can provide the details if needed. I was told Barvis was the Gospel label, how a garage 45 about a 'big fat ugly woman' got on the label is a mystery....

Thank you for all the help I have the record and have played it out a few years ago. I figured it was probably more like a $800 record, but I'm not in the loop. Considering, I will put the record up for trade. - George

I see that the Sheepherders "If You Ever Need Me" sold for $2400 and change. Is this a realistic price? Is this a really big record at the moment?

She has at least three 45s. Sent you a PM - George

Yes, I agree - and you can't determine how rare a record is unless you have some really detailed and valid information about what happened to the pressing run. The same misinformation exists for all collecting genres, garage, rockabilly, funk, doowop. If you count records that were actually distributed to people (sales, giveaways, etc) there's probably a formula you could use to asess the attrition rate - if 450 copies were distributed, can we say that 15% survive in playable condition, depending on circumstances? Are there rare soul (and other) records in the hands of people who are completely out of the loop and will probably never be counted unless their collection is dispersed through mainstream channel.....hell yes! I was trying to give some parallels to my areas of expertise. In the case of the Vikings record I mentioned, a 100 press is confirmed, and a few copies were destroyed, so then a survival rate of 15 copies or less is probably reasonable, and if copy surfaces for sale, it could be a buy it or regret it situation (that's what I thought when I bought mine 8 years ago, it's never been offered for sale in public since). Another variable here is that in this band, three of the four members were brothers, so that would mean that less copies were distributed to families since there were only two families involved, where a five member group of non-relatives would have 5 families and the number of 'heirloom' copies potentially in closets awaiting their eBay sales could be much higher. An example like this happened very recently, when a rare NY state garage 45 was 'discovered' by the band to be valuable and soon several members of the band's circle (family, friends) were unloading their copies. It was comical, at one point three appeared in one week on eBay, talk about undercutting your sales......

There's never logic behind the number of surviving copies. Records that were completely self distributed have been found in quantity from band member or their families. Sometimes the pressings were 'sold out' and mint copies are very rare. Many of the garage bands (and soul groups) I've talked to from Ohio were from areas that are have been ecomonically ravaged for years. The core population is dispersed, moved away. Some of the areas in Ohio, like Youngstown, have less that 50% of the population they had back in the late 1960s - amazing, and even more so when you consider the US population has nearly doubled in that time. When people left, they likely discarded their records. Even people who stayed and 'downsized' got rid of their non-essentials. A lot of the mass exodus from NE Ohio took place during the 'rust belt' period of the early 1980s (hey, me included), long before eBay and Craigslist. Who knows how many records were disposed of back then? Rural areas where records never made it past the county line are even more obscure and hard to track down, and are some of rarest US records, often unknown outside of the local collector circle. This is particularly true in places like Idaho and eastern Washington and Oregon (these are rock records, no soul there.....). The only copies you'll find are gonna be at a estate sale in the town, or in a radio station load. All these factors (distribution, population density, population decay) factor into a record's rarity. Also, the audience. People who bought the records at their release time bought them to play and to take around, not to preserve. Three of my rarest Ohio garage 45s (Vikings, Hazards, Kaleidoscope Machine, all of which are less than 5, uh, 'known copies' ) have the previous owner's name written on the label and are VG condition at best. All three of these records were strictly hand distributed, and in the case of the KM 45, the band broke up only a few months after the record was pressed and the band leader left town and trashed the remainder.

501 and 502 are rock records, not R&B. I think Bo-Pete was a pseudonym for Harry Nilsson or someone like that.

The Triumphs on Cha Cha (2 45s) were a 'salt and pepper' band from Dayton, OH. They recorded the songs in Chicago. I guess these records could be called 'soul'. I have a discography on paper that I put together many years ago. I'd sure love to have all the garage 45s on the label. The Hatfields and Mogen David and the Grapes of Wrath 45s are killer! A well known reissue label had worked on a Cha Cha retrospective but it's not seen the light of day.

Thanks! I'll post up again later! - George

If you don't mind the comments from a Yank outsider, I have spent a lot of time researching the 'ecomonics's of the US record business, primarily in 60s garage bands, and more recently, soul and funk. There were a few different levels on how records were pressed and distributed. I'll start with the bottom. Many US cities had recording studios that offered 'packages' to aspiring recording artists. For, say, $300, you could have a couple hours of recording time and the studio would then have a few hundred copies of your record pressed. The studio would handle all the 'paperwork' and 3 or so weeks after the session the group would have all the copies in their possesion. They would distribute by word of mouth - selling them at their live shows, getting the local music store to sell them (often on consignment), and get a few to radio stations and promoters in the area. Many they would send a copy or two to a relative in a different part of the country. Sometimes, the recording session and records cost would be part of a 'battle of the bands' or talent show prize. This model was pretty common for US garage bands. Over the years, label names like Fenton, Orlyn, WAM, all of which were 'house' labels assigned by the studio to their custom, or vanity, records, have become legendary to garage collectors as Shrine, etc are to soul collectors. A good example of this would be the Shaddows and Insights 45s on United Audio. UA was the house label for the United Audio recording studio in Youngstown, OH. It was formerly WAM and later Peppermint (Peppermint was a different facility). The groups recorded the 45s in the studios and had the studio send the tapes to QCA for pressing and had the house label placed on the record. In the case of the Shaddows, they had a person with the money fund the cost of recording and pressing, in hopes of having a successful payback. In the case of the Insights, they and their manager funded the cost of the recording. In other cases, groups would record in places like local radio stations, school music rooms, even clubs, and take their tapes and send them to a custom pressing plant. During the 'prime time' (mid 60s - early 70s) there were something like 30 custom pressing plants in the US. You all know the big ones - Monarch, RCA, ARP, Wakefield, QCA, but there others like Kelmar and Pama in Cleveland that are not as well known but pressed some significant records. These plants advertised for custom work in trade mags like Billboard. The big ones like Rite and Wakefield advertised constantly. Regarding the number of pressings, the standard figures seem to be 250, 500, and 1000. In some cases records would have some modest success and the band would re-press another 500-1000. 100 seems to be minimum. There are some records that I have seen documentation for a pressing of less than 100 but those are few and far between, as most of the larger plants had a minimum order of 100, or 200. Pama, the place in Cleveland, did some 100 press runs, and a documented press of 85 for a record. The now famous Boddie/Kelmar pressing plant in Cleveland had pressed at least 200 of every record. You can go to my BuckeyeBeat site and look under the Soul Kitchen label for documented pressing runs. For example, Jackie Russell was a 500 pressing (done at Kelmar in Cleveland) but due to a dispute between Russell and Boddie, a lot of the copies were not distributed (most of them ended up in storage a good number were water damaged). Very few copies of this record were found 'in the wild' (I found one 20 or so years ago). Well, that's enough for now. If there's interest I will post similar details. - George

This is one of the most famous US garage 45s, as iconic to that scene as Frank Wilson, JD Bryant on Shrine, or Junior McCants "Try Me" are to US Northern Soul 45s. Be that as it may, the record does not play through and the winner was an infamous collector known as the 'Caveman', someone whose thinking is rather diminutive to their wallet size.... Getting back to my first sentence, if a copy of one of the three records I mentioned, or a similar item came up for sale, an unplayable copy, I wonder what it would sell for.....

I'm no price expert but I've seen this record go unsold for $10. It's pretty common in the US, it was a hit in many areas, probably Billboard charted. A promo/demo could be worth more 'cause....

I made a simultaneous post about this.... The General American/GAR label has a strange history. It was started in St. Louis, moved to Illinois, and then transferred to Cincinnati. I don't have the details at my recall. I think Kenny's involvement was related to his TV show. I don't know about Soussan and boots. The Goldspot copies that I've seen for sale by US dealers in the area are guaranteed original 1971 copies. Pressed at QCA.

No. The only 45 on Goldspot is Lord....it's the only 45 of Kenny's that I don't have AFAIK. Goldspot was originally Kenny's BMI publishing handle, he's had that since the early 1960s. I think I posted about this some time ago, maybe there is more info about Kenny in that thread.