Ian Dewhirst

Agreed Paul. I think it probably is illegal to pass on a portion of the licence fee to promoters - the PRS annual fee should be part of the venue's fixed overhead surely? But I don't think the 'one size fits all' template works any longer. The whole music biz is changing almost on a daily basis, so I guess it's only a matter of time before the collection agencies will have to update anyway. Can't be soon enough for me. Ian D

Thanks for coming back Carl. One thing which I think the agencies could do which would re-align some of the present inequities, would be to maybe set up something like an 'unpaid' artists benevolent fund where a small percentage of PRS income or MCPS Copyright Control income could go into a pot and maybe help out some of those artists who haven't fared so well over the years. We know most of 'em so tracing 'em won't be so much of a problem LOL... This would be similar to the Rhythm & Blues Foundation which was set up to address the problem of royalty payment inequities in the U.S. in 1988. For further information please check https://www.rhythm-n-blues.org/ I mean it's all very well the agencies doing what they're paid to do but I'd be much happier with it all, if I knew that the payments were going to the people who deserve them the most - especially in the world of Northern Soul. I'm sure Paul McCartney would be fine with that. Let's face it, the Beatles owe a lot to the Isley Brothers, Smokey Robinson and the Marvellettes. But it was that bloody Berry Gordy Jr that steered 'em the wrong way with "Money (That's What I Want)"! Boy, this thread started off with a simple question from Jayne LOL... Jayne - one other thing you could check is: what is the actual fee that the council pay the PRS? Has it mammothly ramped-up just lately or something? Maybe the PRS has become even more complicated then it was? I thought it was a one-off annual fee in most cases unless someone can tell me any different. I'd look into it myself but I hate all this stuff - I can't be arsed with filling in forms and studying small print which I seem to do on an almost daily basis these days. Life's too short for all this LOL......... Ian D

And there lies the problem John. The system works like a dream for George Michael but not at all for George Blackwell. I'm really amazed that in 2008 there's not more clarification on many things like this. It's obviously patently unfair for a scene which plays predominently unknown U.S. black music from 40 years ago to further line the pockets of Paul McCartney, whilst making no real effort to address the problems of compensating the original artists. It doesn't make sense to me, unless of course, you're a fee paying member of the UK PRS, which most of our 70-80 year old heroes aren't. If somebody approached me tomorrow and funded me to set up a 'rights clarification' agency and get hundreds of artists registered in ALL the appropriate areas (MCPS/PRS/PPL) I'd do it in a flash. But whilst I've suggested it to various people in the past, no one's beaten down my door with enthusiasm as yet. It's simply not in their interests. Unfortunately though, this is just the tip of a rather large iceberg. I'd like to see a damn sight more transparency about some of the murkier stuff that still goes on to this day, especially in the Publishing arena. For instance, unless the law has changed, it's still perfectly legal for a UK publisher to claim UK publishing for a song that 'they haven't been able to trace' (or probably don't want to trace in all reality). The money is then collected from that song and put in an escrow account for a 6 year period. If, at the end of 6 years, the original writer has still not been traced, then the UK publisher gets the money. Simple ay? And legal. No, I don't get it either. It certainly doesn't constitute what I would consider to be fair and equitible practice. I'd put it more strongly but I don't want to break the law LOL! The reason why I feel so emotive about this is because I got conned myself by one of the great and good in that world and, to this day, whenever I speak to the artist in question (who luckily still trusts me), he always tells me how ripped-off he feels about that particular situation. Never again. One bitten, twice shy. Like many large institutions in the UK (the National Health service, the Post Office, The Tax Office, The Civil Service etc) I think the Music Rights organisations seem to act like quasi goverment quangos (which they are of course) and, therefore, are somewhat innured to change or common sense. But we are now living in the digital age where I can download anything I want in a second, so it would make sense to me to re-design all these daft systems which are based on a world which no longer exists and are patently outdated in this day and age. But, hey, I forgot! We're living in the UK where councils are spying on tax payers over school places whilst kids are stabbing each other every week on a road near you............. Ian D

Hi KathDJ, Dead right. The venue's responsibily for sure. And yep, I'm dead interested in being a researcher for your company! I'm the living expert in these arenas. Seriously, PM me 'cos I know this stuff backwards as a result of me being around forever LOL.... Ian D

Hi Carl, I still maintain that it's the venues responsibility to purchase the appropriate license from the PRS in the first place. If a venue is in the business of hosting musical events and even just playing music, then surely the onus is on them to make sure the venue is PRS licenced is it not? Off course, everything that Carl says above is true in a fashion. However, as per usual, with Northern Soul, there's numerous anomalies. Very, very few of the fly-by-night U.S. labels that we treasure would have had either the infrastructure or forsesight to register with a foreign performing rights society back then. It just wasn't on the radar in Buttf*&k, Indiana at the time. They were too busy figuring how to sell records in the next town leave alone another continent. Plus they'd more than likely go bust a couple of months later anyway LOL... So consequently, they didn't spend much time dealing with any adminstrative stuff in any other country. Why would they? Nobody knew that the records would ever make it outside the state, leave alone the country..... So, apart from the U.S. majors and a few very sussed independents from the 50's, 60's and 70's, the majority of Northern Soul copyright owners simply aren't registered in the U.K. period. Hence they're not collecting any income which is derived from their copyrights being aired in PRS licenced UK venues. Sad but true. There's a million horror stories and I don't want to air them here but suffice to say that 90% of the artists and record companies I've interviewed or talked to have never derived any benefit from the play of their records from venues in the UK. They just didn't know the system. Still don't in most cases unfortunately. And before you can draw anything, you have to sign up and get registered etc, etc... And let's not forget that they're not getting any younger either! A few people on here know about this scenario - it's not exactly fresh news. It's basically a major administrative process to get the right people registered so they can collect their rightful dues. In Northern Soul's cases many of these people are now dead, messed-up, not in great shape or their estates are under the impression that's there's millions of dollars at stake from a play in Burnley on pissing-down Tuesday night in February. Y'know, not easy........ Funnily enough, you'd think that'd more or less be the perfect job wouldn't you, i.e. contacting a singer you worship and saying "hey, want some free dosh? Then just sign right here on the dotted line on this and this and this".....etc, etc, etc.... It's not that easy believe me. It takes a TON of time, a lot of resource, a lot of admin, a lot of headache, a lot of heartache and a large degree of compassion for a hero that has been somewhat shortchanged from the system. I'm sure we all remember the fact that James Fountain received the princely sum of $8 for recording "Seven Day Lover". Ask him what UK residuals he's picked up lately.....? Essentially, the PRS does a wonderful job for it's members and I don't think anyone would blame 'em for taking their responsibilities seriously. Certainly not me. A good team to have on your side believe me - I'm mates with the chairman and he runs a whippersnapper ship. But I think we need to be realistic here. I'm pretty sure that Northern Soul isn't the PRS's No.1 target - especially for promoters who book a venue for a Northern night in good faith and who suddenly get stuck with the dilemma of the venue using the PRS as an excuse for hiking the price! Switch venues Jayne. They don't deserve you. Ian D

I thought it was the venue's responsibility to cover the PRS licence - most of 'em pay an annual fee for the priviledge of playing music. It doesn't make logistical sense to have promoters paying seperately........ Ian D

All horribly complicated Jayne. All the details are here: www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk. I've always thought it's a little bit cheeky for the PRS to charge for Northern Soul stuff since none of the money will ever get back to the original acts in most cases as most of 'em aren't registered in the UK! I think it's fair to say that most U.S, acts from the 60's and 70's wouldn't have a clue about registering for PRS/PPL/MCPS in the UK. Musicians in 60's Detroit, Michigan just didn't think like that. Anyway, hope it helps....... Ian D

It's amazing just how Northern it is when the Beach Boys harmonies are removed. I've just done a comparison and you can plainly hear a straight Northern backing underneath the vocals. If it was the Sons Of Moses we'd all be lapping it up LOL......... Ian D

Yep, very sad but it's the nature of the beast I'm afraid. The stuff we look for was commercially unsuccessful for the most part, so not many fairy stories there unfortunately. Found it sad when Steve Mancha turned up in the UK to record a vocal of a song we were doing and he patently couldn't sing anymore plus it was a bitch even getting him to the studio LOL..... Such a shame that many of our heroes ended up with nowt. But we must remember that it's not our fault. Everyone got ripped off in the 60's music biz and many turned to drink or drugs as a result. Some of 'em died as a result - anyone ever read the Frankie Lymon story? Worst thing for me was seeing Jackie Lee spark out on a park bench in L.A. in the 70's......... Ian D

Just going through some gear and I came across a Beach Boys album called "Stack O' Tracks" from '68 which is the original instrumental backing tracks of their hits from the mid 60's. Track 1, Side 1 is a 100% storming Northern instrumental version of "Darlin'" which sounds incredible. It is the 'Wreckin Crue' (the cream of L.A. session musicians) so it's obviously vintage stuff - not a million miles away from Mike Post IMO. Anyone know it? Ian D

Found in a junk shop a while back - a nice white promo of "Get Out" - Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes on Landa for the princely sum of 10p. It certainly looks original but is it too good to be true? I dunno. But why would they bother booting it? The record had been a mini-hit on a UK re-issue so can't see the point really. So, did it ever get booted on a white? Ian D

Nah, that's greedy Dave! You should be sharing your vast knowledge with some up-and-comers and give 'em the chance to be played out. If you can bear to part with 'em that is LOL..... I know it sounds nuts, but I regularly flog stuff to people I think can use certain tunes - that's how things like Si Hightower and Bobby Taylor finally got out there. I'd almost rather see 'em being used than have 'em on the shelves gathering dust if you see what I mean. I'm just going through all my gear at the moment and finding that I've got a ton of oddball stuff and quite a bit of this crossover gear too.... It is fun going through 'em and wondering why you kept something - I've still got some right oddballs though...... Ian D

Don't think I've heard either of those two in a gaff EVER Max! Bet not that many other people have either........ Ian D

Ever wondered why I collect weapons as well as records LOL? Always handy to have at least 2 different-sized extendable steel coshes (in case there's a few of 'em), at least two different types of liquid disablers - US government endorsed mace or a really potent pepper spray will do and a stun gun with an effective range of 50 feet. That's just for the UK..... For the US stronger measures are necessary. I'll put you in touch with the old Death Row boys - they seemed to rule the turf the last time I was over. "Gangbanger Slim" will look after you..... Ian D

Yep, the TUME's an issue. Other side is a Philly beat ballad "I'll Be Your Everything" with Howard Huntsberry on vocals and written and produced by Bobby Eli. Typical Philly groover not disimiliar to William Devaughn...... Ian D

OK, I've been having a vinyl purge and will be sticking these up ont' bay shortly. Thought I'd offer 'em out to Soul Source first though just in case there's anything which rings someone's bells. Dunno what they're worth particularly, so I guess if anyone wants anything then PM offers per item and it'll hopefuly save me the hassle of listing 'em..... All copies will be VG-Mint - will grade more deeply if anyone wants more info Anyway, here goes: Albums: Clyde McPhatter "Welcome Home" LP UK MCA MUPS 418 The Miracles "From The Beginning" LP UK Tamla Motown TML 11031 Deon Jackson "Love Makes The World Go Around" LP US Atco 33-188 Nolan Porter "Nolan" US ABC Promo LP ABCX 766 U.S. 45's: Early Editions "What Is Wrong With Groovin'" Aries Gregory Washington "Tea & Understanding" Brainstorm The Newday "Wait A Minute" On Top Deniece Chandler & Lee Sain "Glorious Feeling" Toddlin' Town Eddy Ray "Glad I Found You" Prix 100 Proof Aged In Soul "90 Day Freeze" Hot Wax Promo Kenny Lupper "Passion Flower" Motown Garnet Mimms "Somebody, Someplace" G.S.F. Joe Towns "Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music" Top Dog James Gadson "Got To Find My Baby" Cream The Right Combination "I'm Still In Love With You" Gold Mine Aged In Harmony - "Theme For Someone Special" More-Tones New Birth "Fastest Gun" Ariola Leon Collins "I Just Wana Say I Love You" Elf Promo Troy Keyes "Love Explosions" ABC The Ebony's "Making Love Ain't Fun (Without The One You Love)" Buddah Webster Lewis "Love Is The Way" Epic Stamped Promo The Spinners "Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music" Motown Promo Carol Dionne - I'm So In Love With You" Gateway The Donations "I'm Going To Treat You Good" Dee Perfect Touch "What Goes Around" Celebrity T.U.M.E. "Love Shortage" MGM Guitar Red "Share Your Love" Mod-Art Promo Eloise Laws "1000 Laughs" ABC The Livin' Inn "It's Hard To Stop (When I Start Lovin You)" Epic Promo London To Rome "Let's Not Wait" Roulette Promo Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes "Prayin'" Source White Promo Mystique "What Would The World Be Without Music" Curtom Promo Charles Veal "I Believe In You" Capitol New Experience - "Soul Music" Ariola America The Magic Touch - "Lost & Lonely Boy" Roulette Hopefully something for everyone..... Ian D

And those are SLOW compared to some! Mind you, "My Little Girl" is FAST! You could have had a heart atack! Ian D

I thought that there may be generational aspects to the speed of the records played. Given that the average age of Northern Soulers was in their teens in the early 70's, I just wondered whether the beat has slowed down to compensate for older legs! The last few gigs I've been to, I've noticed that the tempos are considerably slower than 30 odd years ago. I mean CAN anyone in the UK dance to "I've Gotta Find Me Somebody", "You Don't Mean It" or "Being Without You" these days LOL or is it too knackering? I've never really danced so I don't know........... Ian D

Sartorial elegance and digging for Northern aren't regular bedfellows as I pointed out to Tim Brown, who was wearing a badly torn jumper which was falling off him when I flogged him a Duke Browner for £11 in '74! Enough for 4 brand new jumpers at the time...... Ian D :smile:

Well, there's another interest which came a close second to vinyl and occasionally even took the top spot! Ian D

Brilliant story Blake! But the difference between you and me, is that I would definitely have taken off with the Entertainers 4 guy. Your wife was at the bloody hotel - she had sun, food and roof over her head! You could have taken off for HOURS at least LOL...... Are you nuts? EVERYTHING would've been there! Ian D

Mmmm. I could imagine it going for 3 figures. I don't think I've seen that many on UK and I've always kept an eye out. Nice thick pressing too. Cheers Mossy, Ian D

Neil had Mel Britt's as well? Were they originals or the last of the re-presses? Sounds like a bargain either way....... Ian D

LOL! That's probably what she said when you popped out! Ian D

Yep, sounds about right to me. Any ideas on Clyde McPhatter, the Miracles and Nolan while yer at it? Cheers. Ian D