Ian Dewhirst

That's weird in itself. Why on earth would they want Len Jewell records up there? Mind you, I had an OK hit in Madison once I seem to remember.... Ian D

Jesus. You're all nuts. Has no one heard the Jimmy Radcliffe supposed demo of this which knocks the Ray and LJB covers into the bin? Ian D

Wow. Pzazz distributed inland? All of which confirms the point I was making earlier, namely, ya never know. And yep, I got your e-mail and apologies for my tardy response sir. More of the same please mate! We have an open canvass and a willing audience........... Ian D

So how's the West Coast these days then Sean? Ian D

Just curious really. My artwork guy Jaffa has been driving me crazy all week getting me to listen to this under-promoted EMI CD release. I'm totally stunned at how good it is. I've heard at least 3 Northern monsters including his version of "On A Magic Carpet Ride" and the absolutely brilliant "Baby What Changed Your Mind" which is vaguely reminiscent of Billy Prophets "What Can I Do". And "Flashback" is just absolutely f*ckin' BRILLIANT. Is this stuff known? Was any of it on acetate or something? Ian D

Nah. None of us are any good at complaining, except me of course Kev. That's why they get away with it! Ian D

Yeah, but to be honest there's a romantic view and a pragmatic view. Both clubs have had a significant effect on my life over different eras. Wigan Casino was an incredible experience for a kid in his teens and to DJ there at such a significant point in the early 70's was really like a fairy tale come true. The best night in the country bar none in that era in my opinion. But the venue itself probably wouldn't have the same degree of attraction to me some 35 years later. I have different needs these days. Much as Iove Wigan, I'll be unlikely to be swinging round there anytime soon 'cos I'm 200 miles away for a start. Circumstances change and people bounce around. So when I moved to London in '83, by that point I was only a part-time dabbler in the world of Northern Soul. However, the 100 Club was always there throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's, keeping the ethos alive right in the middle of London, so over the last 27 years since, I've ended up down there quite often. Generally inebriated but hey......I always make a point of trying to get down at least once or twice a year because I like to touch base with lots of people that I never generally see. The last couple of times I've probably spent more time outside chatting away with people on Oxford Street having ciggies then I've spent inside. But if I'm going to be brutally honest, it was never my idea of heaven going to a sweatbox in Oxford Street. Leeds Central was a similar sweatbox so I've done my time don't worry. If The 100 Club continues in it's current location it'll be the most expensive sweatbox in the world! There's a whole heap of great Soho underground clubs that The 100 Club could locate to within a 1/2 mile radius of where they are now which would be much, much better than the current location believe me. With the current groundswell of support, I'm sure The 100 Club could finance a move to a much better location in Soho and simply transfer the ethos, goodwill and support to an appropriate new venue with much better facilities and a much more supportive vibe. Honestly, in my opinion this is an opportunity rather than a setback. If I were in their shoes I'd be inclined to argue with National Heritage or the National Lottery that The 100 Club is a national institution and thus needs sufficient funding to relocate to a suitable new location. This is a national treasure and thus should be supported for the outstanding influence it's had on British culture for the last 50 years. Being re-located within half-a-mile of it's old address would be a godsend rather than a curse IMO. Ian D

Salt Lake City anyone? There's just no way that anyone could justify paying to go there. It's 500 miles from anywhere else for a start. But the whole Osmonds thing was huge in the U.S.A. from the mid 60's and they were based there, so there must have been records flowing into Salt Lake City from the mid 60's onwards. Including Motown. Somewhere, in a Mormon cellar in Salt Lake City, there'll be a shitload of local distributor stock or radio station promos you can betcha ass....... I never made it there, but I always have this romantic notion that sometimes the best hits are in the most unlikely places. As an example, the 100% greatest-ever 70's Album and 12" hit I ever had was in Nashville, Tenessee 'cos a hot 60's/70's Black jock from Chicago switched stations and moved to Nashville, then got bounced and dumped his collection in a second-hand record store in the heart of C&W country. By the time I got there, the albums were marked down to 50 cents each and the 12"'s were 10 cents. Unbelievable hit. I bought around 5000 records right there. The Nashville branch of the freight-forwarders couldn't believe it. F*ck right. Gimme a Leo's Sunship album for 50 cents and a Norman Connor's "Once I've Been There" 12" for 10 cents and I'm ready to party.......... I reckon there's lot's of records in those upmarket retirement communities. All those rich retired music biz execs who kept everything 'cos they could. Probably haven't even thought about that stuff they put in storage in the early 80's that they'd accumulated over the previous 20 years. Don't even get me going......... The possibilities are endless 'cos the U.S. is just so friggin' BIG. Ian D

Interesting thread this.It's a question I've asked myself many a time over the last 30 years. The answer is: I don't think it is cleaned out yet but you've got to be very, very dedicated to locate untouched stuff these days. Or very lucky. I've employed loads of methods to figure out where records could be. From studying U.S. population and demographic statistics to figure out where the Black populations were relocating to in the mid 60's, to going to the New York public library to dig out old 1960's telephone books from around the U.S. and find old record shops that looked good back in the day. I even once went in concentric circles around Detroit up to a 250 mile radius and bloody cleaned up! I once had to go to Denver, Colorado (cowboy country) on business and knew I'd clean up 'cos it's a pain in the ass to go there 'cos it's in the middle of nowhere. As it happens I was wrong 'cos central Denver had been comprehensively cleared but I scored a brilliant one-off hit in the outskirts plus good hits in Buffalo and St Aspen and then Dave Raistrick hit the area and cleaned up again due to my lack of knowledge of the then current biggies. I've had pretty good hits on business in New York and on holiday in California and Florida when I wasn't really trying that hard. I had to sneak off for a couple of hours and dig out what I could! So anything's possible. I'm sure most of the professionals on here will know of great and very promising looking stashes that somehow they've never managed to access for one reason or another. There's plenty of great collections and old shop stock that's in storage over there for one reason or another. There's cellars and lofts packed full of failed records which haven't even been thought about for 40 years until 'those weird guys from England contacted us'. Etc, etc, etc. Still plenty out there I reckon. It's digging 'em that's become so much harder. Plus, you can trust anyone on this scene to not miss too many tricks, so you have to dig deeper and deeper and really take time to cultivate good contacts or promising leads. All of which takes time and dedicated focus and is almost a full-time job I reckon. But there'll be great hits to come for sure. Maybe some amazing ones 'cos most people from the era we love are coming to the end of their days, so a whole heap of treasure will appear out of nowhere over the next 10 years and there's bound to be some great records in there somewhere. I've got a personal hit-list of the areas I'm gonna concentrate on and I'm reasonably certain there'll be some unheard goodies in there, because, after all, this is what we do isn't it? Having spent the whole day listening to the INCREDIBLE CD of Derek Martin's Roulette recorded tracks (released on EMI with little fanfare) with at least 2 absolute stonking Northern monsters and 1 Crossover piece of brilliance (thanks Jaffa), I realise how much I still have to learn. There's tons of stuff yet. It's out there. We've just gotta find it. Ian D

Well put and bang on the money Dave. Very diplomatic too. Both venues were/are institutions in their respective eras and the world is and/or will be a sadder place without 'em. They couldn't preserve the Cavern or the Marquee - both arguably the most influential UK venues of the 60's, so it's been a miracle that the 100 Club has survived so long. But I don't think this a battle they can win to be honest. It doesn't make any financial sense to be located on one of the most expensive streets in the world anyway. I work around the corner and that whole section of London is undergoing major redevelopment so everything's changing. Busby's and the Astoria (and they both had their moments for sure) got caned a few months back for the Tottenham Court Tube area redevelopement scheme. The site of the Royal Middlesex Hospital behind the 100 Club, recently nicknamed 'Noho Square' has been lying idle for a couple of years now but something will happen there shortly apparently. Tin Pan Alley (another site of significant historical importance) will be next to go without a shadow of a doubt. It's obvious what's happening to me. They've gotta keep that central London 'prime location' real-estate value engine pumping. So they're pricing all the old tenants out of the market so they can develop the sites on the most financially important street in the world. It's a no brainer for them and they'll probably get their way 'cos they always do. What I'd do if I were the owner of the 100 Club would be to maintain ownership of the name and brand, remove all the original fixtures and fittings including the dancefloor and relocate them to a much cheaper and better location which would probably have better facilities anyway. And continue the ethos. The 100 Club brand is the single most valuable assett and was due for an upgrade anyway. Now's the opportunity. And truth be known, the main thing that Wigan Casino and The 100 Club had in common was the appalling state of the bogs in both gaffs. I mean what's the deal here anyway? Do they think that Soul fans actually enjoy wading through piss, shit and discarded toilet rolls or something? Ian D

She also DJ'd in the Soul Casino @ Vintage @ Goodwood a few weeks back....... Ian D

Often those date stamps were done by radio stations so they had a log of what releases came in what week if you see what I mean. Ian D

Ian D

Well, the vote seems to be pretty unanimous. What gets me is why on earth would she make the claims? She's certainly the most successful female bass player of all time with numerous major hits to her credit so why besmirch the reputation of a fellow musician? What could she gain. Just plain weird......... May 1995 In light of half-a-dozen magazine articles by Carol Kaye in the last few years and the distress they caused the Jamerson family, I find it necessary to state the following information about the ongoing debate. I've remained silent for the last five years but I think it's time to step forward with some hard facts. I hope it helps to clear up the issue. Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky "Who Played "I Was Made to Love" Her? The Carol Kaye-James Jamerson Enigma" He was dead, buried, and forgotten. Even 99% of the bass players in the world had no idea who he was. But in the last seven years, his life and music have been center stage amidst an explosion of newspaper and magazine articles (more than 350 worldwide), a long overdue biography, and an upcoming film documentary. The Fender custom shop has made a signature bass in his name, flat wound strings have begun selling again, and in the last two years, the recording company that had employed him for a decade and a half finally gave him official recognition in the liner notes of 3 recent historical CD box sets. After three decades of obscurity, musicians and music lovers throughout the world were discovering the holy grail of the bass world-James Jamerson, the tormented genius whose earthquake-heavy bass lines fueled the Motown hit machine through the '60s and early '70s. Even though it was posthumous, he was finally getting his long overdue recognition. And everyone lived happily ever after, right? Not exactly. As Jamerson rose in prominence, his reputation was given a serious challenge through the media by another icon of the bass, Carol Kaye. Well aware of her claims through the years about her recording sessions with the Supremes, Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, and other stars in Berry Gordy's stable, I contacted her in 1987 when I first began my research for STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN: The Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson. This was done out of the highest regard for Carol's monumental achievements and contributions to the bass, and popular music in general. My intention was to find out first-hand what she had played on so I could avoid stepping on her toes. I had expected her to name a few significant hits but was floored when she laid claim to "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", and dozens of others Motown classics-in short, the majority of James Jamerson's signature performances. At that point I decided to rethink the entire project. If I could substantiate Carol's allegations, I would write the book about her instead of Jamerson. I expected my research to turn up pros and cons for each player's position, along with the usual grey areas you can expect when researching multiple claims to the same material. Instead, what I found was overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that James Jamerson played the tunes in question. Here are the facts that my research turned up: 1) The songwriting-production team of Holland-Dozier-Holland attested to the fact that James Jamerson played on almost every one of their productions, and they never allowed others to produce songs that they had written. Brian Holland signed a notarized affidavit categorically stating that "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Can't Help Myself", "Keep Me Hanging On", "Standing in the Shadows of Love", "Reflections", "Baby Love", "Back In My Arms Again", "Come See About Me", and "Can't Hurry Love", (all tunes claimed by Carol) were in fact, played by James Jamerson. Most damning was his statement that he had never even heard of Carol Kaye. 2) Smokey Robinson who wrote or produced probably 30-40 percent of Motown's biggest hits also denied that she had any major role in the Motown story, and had no part at all on the songs in question. 3) The performance credit that Carol has pursued with the greatest tenacity over the years is the bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her". Hank Cosby who co-wrote, produced it, and who, in his own words, "was there every step of the way from the writing of the song to the day the 45's were shipped", vehemently denied any participation by Carol Kaye on this recording. Cosby added, "Fifty percent of the song was James Jamerson's bass line. No one played like that but Jamerson." Cosby also signed an affidavit similar to Brian Holland's attesting to Jamerson's performance. *********Point-Counterpoint: Carol's Side of the Story********** 1) The Politics of Race and Gender-Carol contends that Motown was afraid to admit that a white female bassist was the driving force behind some of their biggest hits. They wanted to push a black male agenda. There are two faults with this argument. First of all, when it came to musicians, Motown had no racial or gender bias. They were all faceless cogs to them. Regardless of whether they were black, white, female, male, or Martian, they weren't going to get any recognition-period! It was a star driven phenomena and the company never gave the slightest thought to publicizing background figures. In addition, the Motown studio band (which was called the Funk Brothers) was not exclusively black. Guitarists Joe Messina and Dennis Coffey, percussionist Jack Brokensha, arranger Dave Van dePitte, and bassist Bob Babbit, who also played quite a few important Motown dates, were all white. 2) Improvised vs. Written Parts - Her claim to "Reach Out" is based upon her contention that "discerning musicians can hear that the parts weren't improvised. It was a written part". James Jamerson regularly improvised and sight read parts of that complexity. Part of his genius was that he could take a written part and make it sound as if it was his. Regardless of this argument, I have a photocopy of the original Union contract from the "Reach Out" session. It's dated July 6, 1966 (the year of the tune's release), it lists James Jamerson as the bassist (for which he received the princely sum of $61.00), and Detroit's Hitsville studio is indicated as the place where it was recorded. Carol herself admits that she never recorded in Detroit. 3) The West Coast Connection-Carol maintains that a great deal of Motown's output was being cut on the West Coast in Los Angeles. That is true, but don't forget that Motown also had acts like Tony Martin, James Darren, and Soupy Sales signed to their label. There were also various Broadway and Las Vegas style orchestrated albums produced like the the Temptations in a Mellow Mood and The Four Tops on Broadway, not to mention the constant demand for filler material on albums. There was plenty of work to go around and Detroit could not possibly handle all of it. Frank Wilson who produced hits for Motown in both Detroit and Los Angeles supports Carol's claim that she worked numerous sessions for the company. However, he qualifies it by stating, "They used her a lot but not on the hard core R&B stuff. That stuff came out of Detroit. They didn't like her sound for R&B because she played with a pick. It didn't have that fat round sound that Jamerson got with his fingers." 4) "I Was Made to Love Her"-According to Carol, this tune was recorded at Armin Steiner's studio and she recalls "I didn't like the final written riff that I played high up in unison with the horns. You can also hear where I was scuffling a bit with open strings a couple of times". Now it starts to get complicated. First of all, the detailed studio log that Carol kept does not support her position. The log lists every date she played from 1963-1971. She painstakingly listed artists, studios, record labels, contractors and arrangers on each date. "I Was Made to Love Her" was released in 1967 which means it was cut in '66 or '67. There are no listings for a session at Steiner's or a Stevie Wonder date during that time span. As far as "scuffling" around, the performance is perfect. Don't trust my ears. Trust the auditory ability of one of the world's most highly regarded bassists-lifelong Jamerson devotee, Anthony Jackson. He couldn't hear what she was talking about either. The "final written riff played in unison with the horns" argument also is problematic. "I Was Made To Love Her" is rhythm section and strings. There are no horns on that record. 5) Ask My Friends-Carol asked me to talk to Gene Page, Jerry Steinholtz, Earl Palmer, and some of the other studio musicians who played the West Coast Motown sessions with her. She felt they would back up her story. I didn't just call a few of them. I talked to every one she recommended, naming the songs in question and telling them about Carol's claims. Arranger Gene Page immediately burst out laughing and said, "She said that? No way . . . never. That stuff was all Jamerson". Percussionist Steinholtz remembered playing Motown sessions with Carol but that was as much as he could remember. The closest I got to her viewpoint was with veteran R&B session drummer Earl Palmer who bristled at my suggestion that perhaps they played the demo versions of the songs in question. "Hell no!", he countered. "We weren't playing demos. We were playing hits". The only problem was that he also couldn't remember any song titles. Now we all know that studio musicians live by their reputations, so remembering hits that they played on is of paramount importance. If they had even remembered one title-just one-I would have had something to pursue, but as it stood, they gave me no material at all to back up her story. Back in Detroit, In stark contrast to my California research, the Funk Brothers remembered everything- song titles, intricate details, times, dates, and fellow musicians on the session and it all revolved around James Jamerson. 6) The Great Cover-Up-Carol has accused many of Motown's producers of conducting illegal non-union, under scale sessions, and in efforts to cover their backs, they refuse to admit working with her. First of all, if the sessions were illegal, why was a union musician like Carol playing them in direct violation of union rules? Secondly, the Motown story is full of lawsuits and union problems but that doesn't exactly strike fear in their hearts. It's just business as usual. James Jamerson certainly played under scale Motown sessions at different times. Why do these same producers admit working with him? 7) Demos That Became Hits-Amidst the thousand of studio dates in Carol's logs, quite a few are marked as demos and many of those were with Motown. According to her, the company misled the musicians because many of these sessions became the actual records. Carol may have a legitimate grievance in this instance but not in regard to the songs in question. When the recent Platinum CD Box set The Hitsville Singles Collection was produced two years ago, most of the songs in question were pulled from the vaults and re-mastered. Motown's filing system lists whether the songs were recorded in Detroit or Los Angeles (and in a few instances in New York) on each storage box. All the disputed songs were listed as being cut in Detroit. During the sixties and seventies, Carol Kaye contributed more to popular music than most musicians, including myself, could hope to equal in several lifetimes. By all accounts of people who know her well, she is also a wonderful, warm, loving person. I have no desire in any way to hurt her or ruin her reputation, but as James Jamerson's biographer, I do have a responsibility to him. James died a brokenhearted alcoholic, tortured by the lack of recognition for his part in the Motown story. It took the world thirty years to find out and appreciate exactly what he did and I intend to further that recognition to the best of my abilities. If that includes defending him in the face of unfounded attacks on his life's work, so be it. I'm still open to any information which would change the story and support Carol Kaye's version but so far, I've yet to find a single shred of evidence. I'd even go as far as to say that I wouldn't doubt that somewhere out there, there is some evidence that would support her claims on a few disputed songs. She has my humblest apologies for the few that I may have missed. But when you're talking about "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", Standing In The Shadows of Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", and dozens of others . . . Sorry Carol. That magical legacy belongs to someone else. Ian D

There ya go Paul. A perfect explanation for why she was singing so badly on the track. Ed was re-writing the bloody lyrics as he took the call and she was recording. That explains everything. Another mystery solved then! It's really easy once yoiu get going isn't it.....? Ian D

Yeah, for sure Paul, but I'm interested in which tracks she claims she played on and which ones were recorded in L.A. with her and the Wrecking Crew and whether there's any way of differentiating 'em from the Detroit recordings. I actually had no idea at all that the Wrecking Crew did the backing track for "Reach Out, I'll Be There" 'cos that sounds like a vintage Snakepit recording to me. However, the seperation and clarity of that recording does stand out from other stuff. It's crystal clear, beautifully recorded and the bass cuts through beautifully. It's not a million miles from the level of clarity that Phil Spector achieved on his L.A. recordings from the same period. It now makes sense if "Reach Out, I'll Be There" was recorded by the same musicans in possibly the same studios that they did the Spector stuff in. It's just a piece of Motown history that I'd never assimilated before now. This all kinda dovetails with the Frank Wilson connection though. Frank could obviously do the Motown Sound to a tee as Connie Clark's "My Sugar Baby" and "Double Cooking" prove, so it makes sense that a few months down the line, the Wrecking Crew were suddenly cranking out tons of Motown sounding recordings that were 100% on par with the Detroit recordings if not better. Any 'confusion' as to who did the recordings and where they were recorded was probably to Berry Gordy's advantage.The main story was always about the Motown/Detroit success story not about what came through the L.A. office. It'd be fascinating to have a musicologist study the recordings. A spectrum analyzer would probably sort it out in no time. Ian D

Baby Love rec 29-Oct-64 My Guy' rec 24-Aug-65 Reach Out, I'll Be There 27-Jul-66 You Keep Me Hangin' On rec 01-Aug-66 You Can't Hurry Love rec 11-Sep-66 Standing In The Shadows Of Love rec 06-Nov-66 Bernadette rec 24-Jan-67 I Was Made To Love Her rec 31-Mar-67 OK, we've got the dates but does it say where they were recorded? If these turned out to be L.A. recordings then it turns the whole myth of 'the Motown sound' and the company's Detroit history on it's head because I would have pegged every one of those as being vintage Detroit recordings. If they were actually West Coast Wrecking Crew recordings then that tells a vastly different story to the one I know. I mean, it's kind of unbelievable that the backing track for a record like "Reach Out, I'll Be There" was recorded on the West Coast by a bunch of white musicians isn't it? If any record sounded like an archetypical Funk Brothers recording, then "Reach Out, I'll Be There" would probably have got my vote for sure. Also, I'm wondering if there's any tell-tale differences between the West Coast recordings and the Detroit recordings? Are there any subtle little L.A. session tricks that differentiated the L.A. stuff from Detroit? Was the L.A. stuff 'cleaner' than the Snakepit stuff? Was it better recorded? I mean Berry moved the whole company over to L.A. in '72 and the story that's painted in "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" is that Berry ripped the guts out of the Detroit music scene virtually overnight when Motown left. But it now looks like he'd been building the foundations for a West Coast operation over the previous 9 years. Plus Stevie was doing all his recording there, Marvin and Diana probably already lived there, Berry was getting involved in films and Detroit was just too f*ckin' COLD in Winter so it probably made sense. Who wouldn't want to sip a glass of chilled wine at the Playboy Mansion in February whilst everyone in Detroit was freezing their arses off? This also made me wonder whether Motown ever had a New York office in the 60's and whether any New York recordings were commissioned? Ian D

Jesus Stevie. You just found the ultimate holy grail for the huge canine-audio market. It has long been rumoured within Lassie circles that this recording existed but no one really believed it. Whack it in the next issue of Canine Collectors Guide and see what happens........... Ian D

Nah. You don't need help Andy. That was the famous telephone call that Ed Wingate had to take in the studio when Berry Gordy offered to buy the Ric-Tic/Golden World operation. They decided it would be a nice touch to leave it on just as they'd run out of ideas and were trying to coax a decent vocal out of Laura Lee on an old San Remo Strings backing track.......... Ian D

So are there any Motown logs for the California recordings then? It's be interesting to compare them to the Detroit recordings log. It might be that the logging system was based in Detroit so every tape that came in was automatically logged as Detroit recording wherever it was recorded. I'm sure someone can clear this up. Also I think Carole Kay covers the finger and pluck situation (sounds vaguely obscene doesn't it?) on the website link above. I mean she LOVED James Jamerson, so as the world's top session bassist at the time, why would she need to try and steal credit from a fellow musician? I just can't see why she'd need to do that. Most musicians I know can recognise their own playing and someone at Carol Kay's level wouldn't risk harming her reputation with other musicians by bullshitting about records she never played on would she? It's real interesting though and reputations are at stake here. This arguement has been raging within the bass playing community since 2004. Essentially we have a white female bassist from L.A. (and arguably the best bass player ever) claiming that she played the Funk Brothers basslines on some key Motown records. Where's Tony Rounce when we need him........? Ian D

Actually I just realised that the links in the first post didn't work due to me being a buffoon of the highest order. All now fixed folks so please check 'em to get more background on this fascinating story. To be honest, I haven't had time today to do the sort of in-depth research that I enjoy with stuff like this. When Greg rang me at lunchtime to ask me what I thought, I'd just eaten a massive pizza and was still nursing a king hell b*stard hangover from the night before plus was walking back to the office with a guy I'd just had a meeting with. But then I started thinking about Frank Wilson who was West Coast based and who Motown must have recruited circa '64 or thereabouts after he'd already had a smash with the Frank Wilson & The Cavaliers record ("Just Kissed My Baby" I think). Which meant that Motown had a West Coast presence probably from '63 or thereabouts. Because all the books obviously tend to focus on Detroit, there's a tendency for most writers to either miss or kind of ignore the West Coast Motown office. I really know nothing about it at all but I'm not a Motown scholar so I'm sure someone on here can dig up some info about this Los Angeles outpost of an independent black-owned Detroit company. Who ran it? Who was A&R? What tracks were recorded there and by whom? How many Motown sessions were done on the West Coast and who were the L.A. players? Where was the office? Etc, etc, etc. I think it's entirely plausable that Carole Kaye did play bass on those tunes. She has no need to make it up as she's probably the most commercially successful session bassist in the world with the most hit records. Plus she handled Phil Spector pretty well. She was boss and acknowledged for being better than the guys, so it's not like she needs to bullshit anyone. As Mick Howard pointed out, it's entirely possible that the Wreckin' Crew backing tracks were shipped to Detroit and then sweetened and overdubbed with strings and vocals etc, but you'd be kinda nuts to remove a Carole Kaye bassline. No point. She's pretty insistent that those basslines are hers. I reckon that it all made perfect sense for Berry Gordy. He was working the Funk Brothers to the max by '64, probably 24/7 in the Snakepit in Detroit and he probably wanted another crack team to keep everyone on their toes, preferably far away and in nicer climate. We know he bought property in L.A. in '63, recruited Frank Wilson, a young L.A. Black guy who'd already scored a national hit in '64 and now we know he used the Wrecking Crew as early as '65. I never really made the connection or thought about it before today, but now I'm wondering how many of the hits did the Wrecking Crew play on? Berry Gordy was a consumate operator and a PR genius - he invented both Artist Development and 'The Charm School' as just two great examples. When his ex-secretary, Elaine Jesmer wrote a book called "No.1 With A Bullet" - a thinly-veiled and highly contentious novel about a black-owned U.S. record company, he had it pullled off the shelves within 48 hours and bought the film rights for perpetuity. Try finding it now LOL...His PR focus and spin-doctoring always focused on Motown being a Detroit company so he probably didn't shout about the L.A. operation that much because it didn't suit a company that was named after the motor city so why muddy the story? So I find it fascinating that he had a hit-making operation on the West Coast as early as '65 using the same musicians that Phil Spector used. Yet those West Coast recordings sound just like they were made in Detroit. He basically managed to replicate the Detroit sound in L.A. with a completely different bunch of musicians and different studios which is some feat believe me. Fascinating stuff and I've now sorted my reading material for the next couple of weeks. I've got the Orange Motown book but never bothered reading it 'cos it looked like tough going but I'm sure glad I kept it. I knew it'd come in handy at some point. Similarly I've also got that massive Master Recordings book so I feel some serious research time coming up..... Having written all this it occurs to me that there's experts out there who will probably know every single West Coast Wrecking Crew Motown recording and if there are, then please whack up a list if poss. It makes sense when you listen to stuff like "My Sugar Baby", a Frank Wilson produced West Coast brilliantly authentic Motown soundalike. In fact, was THAT the Wrecking Crew I wonder? Ian D

So, in effect, Harboro Horace was a cover-up of the original Ady Croasdell? F*ckin' weird scene this is....... Ian D

Mmm. Interesting topic this. Greg Wilson mentioned this to me earlier today so I said it would be worth posting on S.S. to see what extra knowledge could be gleaned from any Motown experts. Here's what Greg just sent me:- "The book I mentioned is 'Good Vibrations - The History Of The Record Producer' by Mark Cunningham. It criticises Nelson George for not mentioning that there were sessions in the early to mid-60's in LA (once Berry Gordy had bought property there) with the Wrecking Crew. These were supposedly recorded by Armin Steiner and brought back to Detroit for the vocals to be added. The musicians apparently didn't know the titles of the songs they were recording, but recognised some of them later, when issued by Motown. Carol Kaye says she has a letter on Jobete Music stationary saying she played bass on a number of Motown recordings between 63-69. She claims that these include 'Reach Out, I'll Be There', 'Standing In The Shadows Of Love', 'Bernadette', 'Baby Love', 'You Keep Me Hangin' On', 'You Can't Hurry Love', 'I Was Made To Love Her', and 'My Guy'. This would be quite a revelation if true, given that 'Reach Out' is considered to be one of James Jamerson greatest basslines, although her claim to have played the bass on this track doesn't seem to backed up by other Wrecking Crew musicians who would have been on the same session, so would surely have made similar claims.. Found this, which discusses the subject: My link And this is from Carol Kaye's website: My link Any thoughts anyone? Ian D

And, to be honest Phil, I've always thought that was one of your major failings mate. Ian D

Fifty quid's a snap for such a great record! Is the vocalist white though? I know nothing about the U.S. Rock Candy but Joe Tate is a brilliant arranger....... Ian D