Robbk

I don't think our ears are hearing different things. I never cared much about The Rotations' songs. I never even recorded one of them. I bought a few at 5 or 10 ¢, and never played them again. I bought one Rotations on Law-Ton because I got it for almost nothing. I don't have any others of their '70s records. So, I never compared them to the Frantic record and Mala songs. I have few '70s records, and recorded less. I don't like many songs from The '70s (the few I like are mostly Motown from 1970-early '72, with an older sound). So, I never played Rotations' songs from different labels back-to-back comparing them. I just always assumed that they were all the same East Coast group. My buying and collecting records was already taking too much time away from my personal life and other pursuits. I couldn't get anywhere as deep into finding out about non-Detroit and Chicago record labels, or I would have had to try to create a career in researching Soul music (which I clearly didn't want to do - or I'd have tried it). I lost quite a bit of money owning a record company as it was, and didn't get much satisfaction from it because nobody wanted to make or buy the old-fashioned music I liked; and I found out that I couldn't write music, and also wasn't willing to put in the practise time to learn to play the piano or guitar well enough to write better. Anyway, there are Anoraks on this website that know a lot more about the late '60s and '70s East Coast Soul music, and looking up information online and websites and other sources online, and have a lot more friends into NS to ask, who can answer this question better. I use mainly just my own collection, plus a few websites I know, plus some old paper discographies I put together over the years. I DID find the later Jamie-Guyden Inspirations' release. It was Jamie 1212 (rather than Guyden). It has, I think, a re-recording or alternate take of "Dry Your Eyes". I think it's an updated version with Strings added, if I recall. And that's why I bought it. I think "Goodbye" on the flip is a more modern '60s recording.

Yes, that's the Inspirations record I said I bought in 1958. Maybe Jamie-Guyden Records re-issued it on Guyden in 1962 or 1963. But, I also have a couple New Jersey or Philadelphia small indie labels with cuts by The Inspirations from the early '60s, plus one on a tiny New York label. I always thought they were the same Philly group or Philadelphia suburbs of South NJ. I'm not with my 45s now so can't check. Anyway, that doesn't preclude some members of The Inspirations starting up a new group called The Rotations. I just mentioned that I had never seen or heard evidence of that. There are big holes in my knowledge of US East Coast Soul productions. I never talked with any East Coast production people, artists, musicians or even big-time East Coast Soul & R&B record collectors like I did with Chicago and Detroit and L.A. people. I always thought The Rotations who recorded for some Cleveland labels Cleveland (Law-Ton, etc. ) were the same group from New Jersey that recorded for Frantic, and New York's Mala. As Cleveland didn't have as large a recording industry as Philadelphia and New York, and credits and labels showed they also recorded in Philadelphia (Law-Ton and Frantic) I assumed they were the same group. Bill Justis and Miles Grayson certainly were West Coasters. I wonder if The Mala group really was a West Coast group containing some of The Attractions' members? I never really paid much attention to The Rotations as I never cared that much about any of their recordings. But IF they were a west coast group that signed to New York's Amy-Mala-Bell Records, why wouldn't some of their people know about the Philadelphia/Cleveland group and suggest re-naming the group? It seems to me the Cleveland labels are the newest. And, I'm guessing Mala is right before Frantic. But I don't remember. Can someone here tell me the chronological releases of the Rotations' groups' records?

I can't remember on which early '60s Philadelphia labels The Philadelphia/NJ inspirations had releases, other than Grand Records, which ran all the way from 1953 to the early mid '60s. But, I seem to remember that they were on one or two others (and also, I think they had an early '60s release on Guyden). One of those I can't remember may have been on a New York label. I'm not so knowledgeable on East Coast labels as Midwest or California. And my memory of what I DID know is naturally weaker for areas where I never resided. I'm not saying that The NJ/Phil Inspirations couldn't have morphed into The Rotations in the mid or later mid '60s. I just mentioned that I'd never heard anything about them being connected in any way. That means only literally what was stated. My knowledge of East Coast groups' line-ups through the years is not all that good.

Yes. As I recall, Ralph Chestnut sang lead on Tell me. If it had been Morris, I'd have liked it better. Although, I just don't like the music writing or arrangement on that song. And weren't The Inspirations on all those Philadelphia labels the same group that sang the regional hit song, "Dry your Eyes" on Guyden Records? And, I never heard of them also being The Rotations on Mala. And, of course they had nothing to do with the Wisconsin Inspirations who recorded for several Chicago labels.

Yers, Tim, That's the same label design ZTSP copy i have. So., I'd guess that mine is styrene, too.

I have it on ZTSP Columbia, which is East Coast (New York), not Terre Haute. There was an L.A. Monarch pressing, on styrene. I have that one too. It is, of course styrene. I've never heard of any ZTSC Columbia Terre Haute (styrene or otherwise). I'm not with my 45s now so can't check. But, I think my ZTSP East coaster is styrene, but not completely sure. Seems to me that I've seen quite a few mid '60s UA ZTSP white DJs that are vinyl.

Mine is the Gold one (which was released first). I didn't see that one till some months later. The yellow issue got to Chicago. I don't remember seeing the gold one there.

My copy has 501-A and 501-B sides, both having also Nashville Matrix 95 etched into the dead wax. It lists 11825 Hamilton in Highland Park, as the address. It's older than the Ed Crook record, as the copyright for B&B music was still pending non this one, earlier in 1966 than Crook's release. No indication that it was pressed at Archer, and no Archer number code.

I've never seen it on A&M, even in a mock-up. Maybe it was a foreign issue of A&M. I suspect any cuts that were issued on Omen in USA that would be thought worth a try in another country would be released on A&M. But, I can't imagine that record being marketed in foreign countries, with so much excellent US Soul music competition back then. Who would have risked money on marketing, pressing, and other costs on that slim chance that either side could stand up against Motown, Atlantic or Stax hits that were out at that time? I certainly wouldn't have done.

"Love That One" is terrific, a beautiful "Milwaukee Sound" straight out of 1963. I have a hard time believing they recorded that in 1969. What great guitar playing by Harvey, and a very nice sax solo. The whole song is right up my alley. I could see that on a solid green Cuca label. I wish it had been released back then. But at least it's nice to be able to hear it now.

I don't remember ever noticing those Summit records. I DO remember seeing Mcfarland's RPR issue, during the late 1960s. That leads me to believe they were released 1972 or later, as IF I passed them in shuffling through 45s, I didn't pay attention to them because they had a "well-into-The '70s design", representing a time when I didn't like much of them music released. Does anyone know when the Jimmy McFarland Summit 45 was issued?

Rather than trying to distill the long essay down to some basic points, I've decided to give you a specific example of the type of explanation of one of the possible participation scenarios I might have used in my answer to your question. Here is a general description of Johnny Terry's projects, in which he acted as a Middle Man: Some of you Detroit Soul fans might know his name from producer credits on Soul records recorded in Detroit, but released on New York record labels, and wondered how that came about. Working out of New York in the early to later mid 1960s, singing and recording with The Drifters, he knew a lot of people in that city's music industry (musicians, record label owners, and songwriters). Apparently, he had connections in Detroit, as well. I don't know if he was a cousin of Andrew (Mike ) Terry, as Winford (Johnny) was raised in Washington, D.C. But Mike arranged a few sessions on Johnny Terry's recording sessions in Detroit. Starting in 1965, when his time with Drifters was winding down (he left them in 1966), he started getting involved in producing records (on the executive producer level), mainly as a middle man, getting talented artists or independent record producers paired up with recording session producers, and/or record labels that wanted to press and distribute their records. His main Detroit project financier was Don Montgomery, who owned The Travler Motel. Travler Music Publishing Co. was either set up by Montgomery alone, or a partnership of Montgomery and John (Winford) Terry, to publish their projects' songs. Together, they partnered with Don (Juan) Mancha, in deals made with New York's Scepter-Wand/Garrison Records, in which they used Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey, or Mike Terry to arrange their songs in Detroit recording sessions. Johnny Terry must have gotten to know Scepter-Wand's Florence Greenberg through Brill Building song writers that wrote for The Drifters AND for Scepter-Wand's artists, and heard, through them that that label was looking to lease already recorded songs from independent producers for label/and record distribution deals. Some other Travler projects' sessions were produced by Johnny Nash(Johnny Daye on Jomada), or Johnny Terry and Juggy Murry in New York, with New York's Arthur Jenkins or Detroit's James Bryant arranging(Betty Green). So you can see that many different people, who provided different services along the track of a single record's production, marketing, and distribution, end up receiving portions of the records' sales revenue. I was told, back in the '60s by an industry insider, that Johnny Terry was not present at all the Detroit recording sessions. But, he got credited as co-producer ("executive producer") along with Don Mancha, and even Don Montgomery(on a couple), because he was the project initiator, and without his connections, the record would have existed. I believe the co-producer credit for "Montgomery" on The Honey Bees' Garrison record stands for financier, Don Montgomery as "Executive producer for financing the project, rather than singer, Jack Montgomery(AKA Marvin Jones), whose stage name was named after Marvin Gaye and Don Montgomery). Mancha got co-producer credits, because he ran the sessions, and brought in Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey, or Mike Terry, or Bob Hamilton(Taurus & Leo) as asst. producers or arrangers. Johnny Terry also initiated a few projects whose sessions were run in New York, and picked up by New York Soul labels, like Juggy Murry's Sue(Crackerjack) Records. Murry had also leased a 1963 Detroit production by Fred Brown and Joe Hunter from their Mickay's Records (by Detroit's first Dramatics group). Several of these independent players in the recording/record-producing industry play multiple roles to varying degrees on different record projects, and, thus, get differing cuts of the revenue pie, from project-to project. Even inside the major record labels, the cut of the revenue differs, depended upon whether the contributor was a full-time employee, or a pay per-service contractor, based on the contract for that project, or having a contract for providing a single service, or set of services at an agreed upon regular fee for each service, or an employee with a regular salary, plus a contract for production services on each in-house record project. So, most projects have a different mix of contractors paid for services, and different groups of outside services provided by one or more contractors. It gets very complicated. Songwriters get paid individually, for writing the words and music. If a record label uses their song, they each got an upfront advance on their upcoming royalties from record sales. Which would be taken from them from the first sales, until fully paid off. I seem to remember their usual cut was 3% for previously successful writers. But, I think many record companies, who published the songs through their own in-house publishing companies, sometimes offered only 1 or 2% in their contract, because of the greater risk of getting no sales. And those writers were generally forced to accept, or not get their music on record to get public exposure. Usually the beginning writers (often teenaged group member singers) didn't have the cash to pay for the set-up of a music publishing business, and to pay the annual BMI or ASCAP member fees. Singers got fees agreed to by contract. I'm pretty sure they varied according to the current artists' popularity. Arranger and Producer fees varied, depending upon the relationship of the service provider to the record company, and the demand for the outside provider's services. Different cuts of a record's sales revenues depended upon how many people were involved. If there were more middlemen (e.g. outside services were needed that are often provided by company staffs in larger labels), the cut for the record company diminished, but the royalties of the writers and singing artists, or instrumental featured artists (as opposed to session musicians (who were usually payed flat fees per session)) were the same in either situation. And, of course financiers got a % of the revenue based on the % of project costs they financed, possibly including recording session, pressing fees, marketing, and distribution costs. I think record projects varied so much in their detailed structure, that trying to place industry norm figures to given services for any decade or 5-year period might be misleading due to so many different possible combinations of services provided by inside and outside providers. Given the fact that having to pay several professional fees to outside contractors for different services might get quite costly because those fees are reflective of those contractors' own businesses' overheads. So, we can understand how Berry Gordy's Motown's assembly-line structure, and soon after starting to roll, paying mostly flat salaries to non-artists and key musicians, really cut down production costs, to end up bringing in larger profits. But the major national record companies (RCA, Columbia, ABC/Paramount, Capitol, Warner Bros., United Artists, Mercury, etc.) with hundreds of employees in regional offices, even though containing more of the recording and record industry services in-house, might have been less efficient overall, and more costly to operate, due to too many employees with overlap in duties, and most employees having far less stake and participation in their company's success and profits.

David, (1) The response to what you request from me would be at least a 10-12 page essay or treatise on how all contributors to a record being produced, marketed, and sold, at least a bit, locally had its sales revenue divided, worthy of being a well-respected "Webisode" on SoulfulDetroit.com (such as Graham's). The reason for that is the very reason you've asked for it, which came from the "guess scenario" I brought up. It's because there were several different ways the writers, singers, musicians, artist agents, artist managers, financiers( for recording, record pressing & record distribution costs & fees), recording companies, recording technicians, record producers, go-between men (project facilitators (who brought key functional parties together)), record marketers, record distributors in different combinations, leading to a different way the record's sales revenues were divided up. All those variables then have to have the explanation of adding in the typical %s paid to arrangers, artist managers, etc. I don't have time right now to compose and write such a piece, and organise it coherently to do justice to your request (providing actual examples of the various combinations of who did what and who all got cuts of the pie), to my satisfaction that I'd be happy to have my name attached. I'll try to come up with something more condensed and basic (maybe a few pages), as soon as I get the time. A lot of thinking is involved in addition to the writing. I'm a very slow typist, too. (2) That was an excellent point I made in an earlier post on this thread. Terry had left Motown several years before, specifically because he was capable of handling ALL those functions and could get paid for them, so WHY would he just settle for playing sax on an Appreciations record, or playing sax and just arranging it? My statement was that he very likely would have wanted to produce it, as well (whether or not a so-called "executive producer" facilitated the project (e.g. got the necessary participating entities together). (3) Bobby was correct in my book. The arrangement of the music is much more important to me than even the quality of the singing, or the composition of the tune or the quality of the singer(s) performance on the recording. That is why Motown became so successful. Just think of how a weak-voiced 1940s-style MOR singer like Margaret Whiting had a NS hit; or why the weak-voiced Messengers' version of "California Soul" sounds even better than the much higher-quality vocal version by Marvin & Tammy, because The Messengers' version got the A-side (Hit treatment), while M&T's got a weaker arrangement and mix worthy of a toss-in LP cut, or why Tommy Good's "Baby I Miss You" sounds so much better than any of his other Motown cuts (because of its fantastic arrangement). I'll try to put something up here in a few days.

Chattlee Productions could get producer credits rights, just because The Appreciations were their artists, and, by agreement in the artists' contract, or deal with the studio producer, they get to be called executive producers regardless of whether they run the recording session, or farm it out to someone else. It's certainly not a guarantee that they handled all the production "on the ground". That's why we often saw credits for Berry Gordy as producer, when Smokey Robinson ran the session. I rather think the demo was made for, and left with, Dave Hamilton, as samples, because Mitchell was looking for a Detroit producer to run his upcoming Detroit Appreciations' recording sessions.

I have that record and bought it new, also Sport 111. I always assumed this one was recorded in Detroit. I hear some Detroit musicians on it. The acoustics sound a lot like Sidra/TerraShirma Studio as opposed to Golden World. I guess this record represented the Appreciations coming to Detroit and recording there. I See that Willie Mitchell was credited as producer. But, I'm not convinced The Aware record was recorded in Detroit. The bari sax on Sport 108 sounds like mike Terry's style, and could well be him. But it's too sparse, and subdued in the background, to tell for sure. But I'd still bet that Mike Terry arranged it, and played the sax on it, too. This is the reason why I originally thought that The Appreciations were a Detroit group. I also have the Gaines-Leeper penned Appreciations' record on Jubilee. I'm surprised I didn't connect it with The Sport group. And I never liked the Aware cuts, and thought they were a different "Southern" group.

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry". but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record. I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

Thanks for informing me of that. And I've read that Aware Records was located in Charlotte, NC. So why do people think this song was recorded at Golden World, in Detroit? It certainly doesn't sound like Golden World to me. And I don't hear any distinctive Detroit musicians playing on it (other than the Mike Terry emulator). Maybe it was Willie Mitchell in Charlotte, trying to sound like Terry (because The Appreciations had previously recorded in Detroit, for Sport)?

Yes, the notes and entire musical phrase are typical of a Mike Terry intro, which reminds me of a Supremes' song from late 1964 or early '65 (I can't remember which). But, to me, it sounds like IF it was Mike, he was suffering from the flu, or it was another sax player trying his best to imitate Mike. And the acoustics don't sound to me like this was recorded at Golden World. The sax doesn't sound to me like Willie Mitchell, either. Could it have been Mitchell, trying hard to use Terry's style because he was recording in a Detroit studio for a Detroit group?

That's been my experience too, David; and I've also been surprised to have fans show me scenes in stories I wrote and drew 45-50 years ago that I had forgotten about, until shown them. If you've worked on hundreds of productions half a century to 40 years ago, it's difficult to remember EVERY one, at the drop of a hat, without being in context. But, the bari sax solo on The Appreciations' cut doesn't sound "warm" enough to be Mike, it sounds "flat". Actually, I don't like anything about this recording's production, for a 60s Detroit Soul record, including the songwriting, arrangement, and the musicians' performances. They definitely don't sound like The Funk Brothers and other Motown musicians who played on most of Golden World's, Correc-Tone's, Thelma's, Solid Hitbound's, plus other better quality "off-Motown" Detroit musicians. Also, by this late in the '60s, Mike didn't just sign on to a recording project as a sax player, without being the arranger (and a lot of the time, the producer). This sounds NOTHING like a mike Terry arrangement. The melody and direction of the song is too "muddy" a mix, and not at all crisp and with good separation like his normal productions. Until shown proof to the contrary, I really think he wasn't involved in this one.

No, sadly, I haven't.

Thanks Graham for uploading this great interview. I always wondered why Ron Davis, who wrote such good songs, disappeared from the music business so quickly. Now I understand that he quit after finding out he was cheated out of his royalty money for his songs that sold well.

I can believe the sax player on this recording is someone other than Mike Terry. It sounds a bit like him, but is rougher than his usual. It just doesn't sound nearly as good as what I remember by him. If I see actual documentation stating it IS him, I'll believe it, but recognise that this wasn't his best performance by far.

That's what it had to be. And I've seen many credits listed as Henry, rather than "Hank".

Was Hank "Cosby" or "Crosby" his actual name. From the scores(maybe hundreds?) of record credits I've seen for him over the years, it was spelled much, much more as "Cosby". I always thought the "Crosby" spelling was a misprint.

I'm almost sure it did, because " Correc-Tone/SonBert's record issue numbers were (after #503 (1962)) were taken from their RCA recording numbers, which were based on a chronological numbering system. 5800 series (1965), was quite a bit later than the 3100 series (1963-64). And "Just Like You Did Me" sounds intrumentally, and in recording technology, like 1965, while "So Much In Love"/"I'm In Love" sounds a lot more like early 1964.