Robbk

I remember mistitled copies having only "little togetherness". Having Delta starting at 64000 and being styrene makes it clear that it's an original. The label looks like the proper "age" to be a 1967 record. A beat up and water-stained record made after 1980 or so, would look different from one from the mid '60s. I think yours is an original. It looks exactly like those originals of that variation looked. I was in Los Angeles in 1967, and I saw that variation there.

Here's a link to a short bio on him: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/james-thunderbird-davis-mn0000133249 He died of a heart attack on stage in 1989. He was nicknamed "Thunderbird", not for his size or singing style, but after his favourite libation. I can't remember how many Duke singles i have by him, but, certainly over 10. He was with them for more than 10 years. He had Guitar Slim for his guitar man early in his career. He was a Blues singer early in his career, before switching to R&B (just like Bobby Bland).

I never saw him appear in The Chicago or L.A. Areas, but he was a Bluesy R&B singer, who had several records released on Duke Records during the late '50s and throughout most of the 1960s. I would guess that he was based in East Texas or Memphis. He was a good singer in my book.

Sorry to hear this. I was a big fan of The Peps. He still has a lot of fans.

Sorry to hear this. I was a big fan of The Peps. He still has a lot of fans.

I THOUGHT Wheelsville 101 and 102 were MUCH earlier than 1967. Soulful Detroit's webisode on Mike Hanks has Wheelsville USA 10001 (Freddy Butler), and 10002 (Rudy Robinson) as being released in February and March of 1965, and says that 101 and 102 (leased from Don Davis) (Jimmy Gilford and Steve Mancha) being released a couple months later. Steve Mancha's record charted in July, 1965. So, Mancha's and The Professionals' releases were only a handful of months apart, at most. My Groove City records were all pressed in Michigan plants (one being Archer. They started in mid 1966, so I KNOW that Groove City's 100 series started AT LEAST a year after The Professionals' release. And, Groove City thus started almost 2 years before Groovesville ended. I assume that Don Davis "resurrected" Groove City, when his partnership with Lebaron Taylor in Solid Hitbound ended, and Groovesville and Revilot stopped.

My Steve Mancha on Wheelsville USA 102 was mastered at Sheldon, and pressed at Midwest Pressing Plant in Chicago, and has the pressing code number MW-518. The few after it still in the 100s rise up into the 600s. The Midwest Pressing Plant's code numbers bounce around, as the later Wheelsville USA releases in the 110s have pressing codes in the 200s. So, it may be difficult to date, as Anorak's Corner does NOT have data on Midwest.

They probably do on the East Coast and Midwest issues. I don't have The Tempos on yellow, but my yellow Younghearts has only the Monarch Deltaand number, "LR" etched on and a circle insignia stamp (that I can't make out what it is). The SAME is true for my maroon Tempos. So, I'm guessing all the L.A. pressings were like that, and Midwest (and possibly East Coast) had Nashville Matrix. Those L.A. pressings must have been mastered at Allied Steel (Allied fed Monarch and also used the Delta on their own pressings in their own pressing plant.

Wheelsville started a lot later than D-Town. I think the blue Freddy Butler was late 1965. I think the early pink issues were 1966. So, I'd guess 1966. But, I can find out by checking the pressing plant codes. In any case, we now know that The professionals' release in 1965 was one and a half to 2 years before the regular run of Groove City Records, and out before a large portion of the Groovesville releases.

That's a legit L.A. pressing. It was pressed both on maroon and yellow at Monarch. I saw the yellow ones before the maroon.

Looks real enough to me. The elaborate labeled record is the New York (or, at least, East Coast) pressing plant, while your issue was pressed in Los Angeles (and is certainly legitimate).

Id also like to find out when the remainder of The Groove City releases came out. I have a feeling that the second series was after a gap in time after the Professionals was released, and that The Professionals was released while Groovesville was still in operation, releasing J.J. Barnes records.

Thanks, Chalky! Good to know all this after so many years. I'd still like to know exactly when the Professionals' record was released, and also the Steve Mancha on Wheelsville USA. I assume now, that The Professionals release was after the Wheelsville, and that Don Davis used that Steve Mancha cut, rather than any other Steve Mancha or Melvin Davis cut he had in the can, because it was the best song he had available in a voice that was similar to Calloway's, AND, because he had not been satisfied that the public had had a chance to hear "Did My Baby Call" the first time, as Hanks hadn't pushed it at all. I know that, because several of the Wheelsville USA sides made the radio in Chicago, but I don't remember that one, and also never saw the record when it was out. It was shocking to me after finding it many years later, as, to me, it was BY FAR, the best cut that ever came out on that label.

I have been looking through literally millions of US 45s since 1953 (more than a million between 1958 and 1972 - when I could have seen that record). And, yet, I have never seen one, nor heard of one, and I have always seen it listed as unreleased. Apparently, it was slated for release, but then pulled back. Then "Don't Cry No More" was released as the flip of Duke 340, with "St. James Infirmary" as the "A" Side. I think that Don Robey was so enthusiastic about the latter's chances of becoming a big hit, that he junked Bland's non-hit-worthy release, and hurriedly got the new pairing of recordings ready for a quick release.

"Manufactured by Phonogram, Inc." gives that away, as Mercury had been bought by a conglomerate by the start of the 1970s.

Surely someone must have asked Don, Melvin or Steve who The Professionals were? Don't we know the answer to that question (and also which of the 2 records was released first)? I'm sure that The Professionals was released quite a bit before the second Groove City release (e.g. the second series was a "resurrection" of that label, and that The Professionals came out as a 2nd Don Davis label, while Groovesville was still operating).

First of all, we know that Don Davis produced both versions. He and Steve Mancha were the writers. Upon listening to both versions many times, I believe that the instrumental track is basically the same (perhaps a slight adjustment added later, on the second release-but not necessarily even that). One problem is with the voice of the lead singer. The basic phrasing and intonations sound very much alike. But, The Steve Mancha vocal is much smoother, while The Professionals' is more gravelly and gruff. That could mean that the two are two different singers (e.g. that The Professionals' is Melvin Davis), OR , more likely, that both leads are Steve Mancha, but that his voice was slightly hoarse on The Professionals' take, after having sung many more takes (as in the case of Mary Wells and her final take of "Bye Bye Baby" as compared to her softer, smoother, regular singing voice). Another problem is that BOTH Steve Mancha AND Melvin Davis were protegés of Don Davis, and were working for him at the time of these recordings. And they both had that similar gravelly singing voice (as did Edward Hamilton, Clifford Binns and J.J. Barnes). Of the latter 3, only Barnes was working with Davis at the time of both recordings, and he had voice delivery mannerisms different enough from Mancha and Davis to rule him out. So, it comes down to Mancha or Melvin Davis. I believe that BOTH were Steve Mancha, and that the background singers in The Professionals were a "studio group", composed of a regular group that worked with Davis around that time (possibly The Holidays?). I'm sure that "The Professionals" were just a studio group (just a group name) to re-release Mancha's song, which had failed to sell the first time, as Mike Hanks didn't give it the push (exposure) it needed nor enough distribution to get enough sales. I don't remember EVER seeing any adverts (posters/flyers) advertising any appearances of that group, nor seeing any photos of them. So, Davis put it out on his own label to see if it could sell as a group. Or, conversely, Davis had first released it on his own label, as a group record, and it didn't sell because he had no distribution outside Detroit, and later, he leased it with a redone vocal, under Mancha's own name (when he wasn't so hoarse), trying to take advantage of Hanks' label's national distribution. It is difficult to detect the date of The Professionals' release, because that first Groove City release was NOT contiguous with all the other Groove City releases, just as Don Davis' first Groovesville Records release (777 in early 1964) occurred long before his regular series of Groovesville started as distributed by Ed Wingate's Golden World (when Don started working for him in late 1965, after he left Thelma Records). Both The Professionals and the Steve Mancha Wheelsville USA releases occurred in 1965, and it's difficult to know which came first, unless we hear it from the horse's mouth. I'm pretty sure that Don Davis is still alive, as is Melvin Davis. Not sure about Steve Mancha (Clyde Wilson). But, surely they've been asked before who sang lead on The Professionals' cuts, and who the group members were, and also which version came first? There should be SOMEONE on this forum who knows the answer to these questions because he has talked to Don Davis, Clyde Wilson or Melvin Davis about these questions. Let's hope he (or they) comment on this thread. It's too bad that we didn't ask Melvin these questions when he was posting on Soulful Detroit Forum. Nowadays, almost ALL of the 1960s Detroit music industry people who used to post there are gone (deceased or no longer posting there because the threads there are no longer interesting).

Hi Mel. Nice to see you on here. We've both got about 2,200 posts, and yet, we've never posted on the same thread??? How is that possible? We must have both posted on at least 5,000 of the same threads on Soulful Detroit, since 2001. Oh yeah....... I forgot to list Ian Melia.

Rod Shard. He heard about me, and contacted me in 1979 or so. Then, he visited me starting in 1980 or 1981, and did so every year through the 1980s and early 1990s. He was the first actual friend I made on The NS scene. Why: Because he found me a lot of great records over those years, and he hoovered my flat (so he could breathe). I was also friendly with Dave Withers. But, I had dealings with Martin Koppel, Dave Raistrick, Nev Wherry, Tim Ashibende (posing as "John Sullivan"), Ady Croasdell, Tony Rounce, John Manship, John Anderson, Bob "Larry" Wagner, and Larry (Snakepit), who used to go to The Twisted Wheel. I also had several meetings with Simon Soussan (but, I wouldn't call him a "mate"). Of course, I also visited Rod and Dave in Lancashire most of the years in the 1980s and early 1990s, plus a few years in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I attended a few all-nighters, and some dayers. I always visited John Anderson and John Manship on my annual UK visit.

I see that a few posters on this thread "gave me reputation". I hope it's not a virus! I hope it's a good reputation, and not a notorious one (as in "Look at the idiotic posts this tosser inflicts upon us!" But, seriously, folks,.... I'd like to find out what is the purpose of this forum "feature", and how it works. If it's something GOOD, like giving kudos for answering a question and providing good information, I don't understand why Roburt, who answered the question, and provided the theory with which I only agreed, didn't get the "reputation" instead of me, or, at least, along with me. Maybe I've got a 'reputation" for trying to steal glory from the rightful owners!

Van McCoy was known to have saved a lot of money and ensured the high quality of his recordings' background vocals by heavily overdubbing his own, Chris Bartley's and Kendra Spotswood's voices to produce a group sound on many of his recordings. So, given that The Vonettes were supposed to be a "studio group", it is not unlikely that once The Vonnettes' record started selling, and there was demand for appearances, that Van decided it would be better to actually have a group to appear, and found Brenda McGregor, a New York Metro Area singer, who may have been known by Kendra or another of Van's industry connections.

Actually, "Tony Orlando and Dawn" was chosen by Orlando's producer as his "artist name" before his song was released and became a hit. He needed a back-up "group". I think that Joyce Vincent was one of his back-up singers on the recording. But, his label had to sign her, and the other singer to a contract afterward, so he could have a "group" for his personal appearances.

It's a fairly fast R&B song, and does NOT have the shag/beach or Popcorn beat. So, I doubt that it was made for those markets. I also doubt that it was made for the general film-related "oldies" market, as those were all big hits. This record only did some scattered regional charting.

It doesn't look like a recent pressing. It looks more like a '70s pressing. But, maybe it WASN'T made for The NS scene, but, rather for US demand, during the 1970s?

I'm no expert on bootlegs or legitimate re-issues made for The NS, Popcorn or Beach Scenes. But, that looks like a legitimate re-issue made by H.B. Barnum (resurrecting his Little Star label to take advantage of European or US demand. I'd guess it was a late '70s or very early '80s pressing made because people from one of those scenes had contact with him, and told him of the demand. So, he pressed them up. Was that song played on The Northern scene? If so, when was it hot? Maybe that will lead you to your answer.