Robbk

This is a joke, isn't it? Do they actually sell American Soul music there? I lived in Jordan for 6 years, and Arab countries for 15 years and all I remember is traditional Arab music being played on the radio. I know there were a few discos and Western nightclubs in Beirut, but would ABC really spend money to market their records in Lebanon for that tiny minority crowd???

I don't agree with the Soulful Detroit thread's conclusion that "Edith Wayne" represented only Eddie Holland. That would mean that only Eddie Holland wrote ALL the music on ALL those Invictus and Hot Wax hits, and Eddie co-wrote the words with Ron Dunbar. I rather believe that H-D-H wrote ALL the music, and Eddie Holland co-wrote most of the songs with Ron Dunbar (and Lamont and Brian Holland probably participated in some of the lyrics writing. Therefore, I believe that "Edith Wayne stood for Brian Holland, Lamont Dozier and Eddie Holland, and when Ron Dunbar was credited, he had participated in the lyrics writing. If HDH had participated in BOTH music and lyrics writing, they wouldn't have gotten their names twice in the credits. So, if their "pen name" (Edith Wayne) was in the credits, they surely wrote the music, and they may, or may not have participated in the lyrics writing. Based on what was stated in the Soulful Detroit thread, I would guess that the most common situation was only Eddie Holland co-writing with Ron Dunbar, but on some songs, the other two did, as well. Based on the wording and sound of the song, "Band of Gold", I believe that Eddie Holland participated in the lyrics writing with Ron Dunbar, either as a full co-writer, or only directing him from above (e.g. brainstorming with him, letting him run with it and come up with lyrics, then "editing" it - coming up with recommended changes and additions). I am sure that Ron Dunbar didn't attempt to aggrandise himself to give a false impression that he wrote "Band of Gold" without ANY "guidance". He just had to be careful; about how he worded his description of what happened, so that Universal or Berry Gordy wouldn't sue HDH again.

Yes, I DID direct it towards Golden 101. There was a defect in that post that made it appear that Stateside made that quote. But, if you look closely, I placed "27 minutes ago, The Golden 101 said:" above my response.

That seems to be the case. It seems that HDH always participated in the music writing in the Dunbar-Wayne songs, and the only questions are whether or not Dunbar participated in the music writing on some songs, and whether or not HDH participated in the songwriting in some or most of the songs (other than "Band of Gold".

Given that Lamont Dozier, himself, told you that he and The Holland Brothers didn't write "Band of Gold", but Ron Dunbar and Edith Wayne wrote the song, I will defer to your information. So, apparently, Ron Dunbar wrote the words to Band of Gold". But Edith Wayne must, then, have written the music. So, IF all that we've read and heard, that "Edith Wayne" was a placeholder for HDH is true, then The Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier wrote the music to "Band of Gold" and those other Dunbar Wayne songs. That jibes with what Dunbar said in his interview, that he was given a tape of the music, and he wrote the lyrics to fit to the music. So, I assume that either Ron Dunbar did (1), ALL the lyric writing in all the Dunbar/Wayne songs, OR, (2), he, alone, wrote all the lyrics to "Band of Gold", and otherwise had participated to a varying degree in the lyric writing (and, possibly, the music writing) from writing all the lyrics, to co-writing them with HDH or one or more of that trio as an equal partner, or just played a minor role in the lyric writing. I can believe that Ron Dunbar wrote all the lyrics to "Band of Gold". I can even believe that he wrote all the lyrics to The Honey Cone's songs. But, I couldn't possibly believe that HE or someone else wrote all the music to those songs, and that HDH did not have ALL, or the major portion of the writing contribution to the writing of the music.

Regarding producer credits, Ron Dunbar got only one listing as producer(Honey Cone's 1st Hot Wax release) early in Invictus' and Hot Wax's operations, while HDH Productions' Staff and HDH Productions got the Invictus credits, and Gold Coach Productions got Hot Wax's. After HDH returned he got a couple producer credits on Invictus and a few on Hot Wax. Those certainly must have stood for him alone. Lamont Dozier got a couple production credits on his own, otherwise, "HDH Productions" continued to be used to stand for The Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier, together.

From what I've read, Edith Wayne was a friend of The Holland family, She was just a name used for a money collection designation for The Hollands and Lamont, and she made no creative contribution to HDH Production's product. Dunbar, on the other hand, was part of the creative staff. He was likely involved every time his name was used. HOWEVER, during the time that HDH still could not list their names, his part in the production or songwriting was likely to have been significantly less than that of The Hollands and Lamont. WE can all hear it on "Band of Gold" and "Give Me Just A Little More Time" and The Honey Cone's hits. On the songs after HDH were eligible to be listed, surely Dunbar stood for Ron Dunbar alone. Wayne no longer was used at that point. Dunbar was groomed by HDH as a "junior" A&R man and producer. He proved that after HDH Productions stopped, by doing a creditable job on projects together with George Clinton, and a few other independent projects. But, the story about HDH using Edith Wayne's and Ron Dunbar's to stand for credits that should have been theirs is true. Wayne's name must have stood for the music writing, and Dunbar's, for the majority of the lyrics writing, with Dunbar as a junior writing "helper" until they were allowed to use their own names. Dunbar acted as assistant producer to HDH, when they couldn't give themselves producer credit. After they could take the credit, he must have been the sole producer for his name's portion of the credits. when he was given production credit (e.g. "Patches"?). So, the rumours and story WAS true, and yet, Dunbar was also telling some truth about himself. It was just a blending of the two. But no one can convince me that Ron Dunbar, alone, wrote the music for those HDH Productions hits, or even that he was the lead writer on them.

Her's an excerpt from an interview with Dunbar: "They [Holland-Dozier-Holland] helped to develop, by coaching and by directing the writers and producers that they were "mentoring," and I was one of those people, so I helped in development. I was given certain projects to write. "Band of Gold" was one of those projects and I came up with the title "Band of Gold" first. I helped write the lyrics according to how the track was and used the melody structure that we got listening to the track. I also co-wrote "Patches" with General Johnson, the lead singer of Chairmen of the Board. I was part of the "in-house" team that was being developed at the time. It wound up being a heck of an opportunity for newer writers, like myself and to some other people in getting their careers developed. When I say "newer" I mean people that had some experience but nowhere near the success of the HDH team. It was a great treat to be under the umbrella of H-D-H." I think he probably only helped Eddie Holland on the lyrics of "Band of Gold", and may have come up with the title. But, maybe he did co-write "Patches" with General Johnson. It seems a lot more likely that he worked in the creative side of HDH productions, rather than just being the janitor of their office building, as he'd been a songwriter previously with D-Town, and also was a songwriter/producer working with George Clinton, afterwards.

Wasn't Ronnie Love Ron Dunbar of The Peps (later, Fabulous Peps)? Ron Dunbar was credited writer of Ronnie Love's D-Town songs in the early '60s. So, that "janitor" could very well have been that same person. Muddy Waters was one of the painters at Chess' office. Lots of Motown artists and writers had menial "day jobs" at Motown. I had heard, since the early '70s, that THE Ron Dunbar DID, indeed, do some of his own REAL songwriting at HDH Productions, ostensibly, at the very least, the songs that appeared after HDH were again allowed to have their credits listed. Apparently, Dunbar WAS working with HDH all along, which is one of the reasons they used his name for a "front", as he had to pass the songwriting proceeds along to The Hollands and Lamont. He hadn't been with The Peps for some years before 1969, so it is natural that they picked him up, along with other unaffiliated Detroit artists and songwriters when they left Motown.

Sorry to hear this, and a bit surprised. I had had some nice conversations with him recently. Usually, cancer moves slowly when first diagnosed at a patient's advanced age. But colon cancer is always very dangerous. I just hope he didn't suffer much. He was too young - only a few years older than I. He was one of the main reasons for Motown's success, getting their acts through doors that African-American acts and business had previously been barred.

The E-Bay version is West Coast, and was pressed at Monarch. I have seen only "Snowflakes" on both sides on the white vinyl DJ pressed on The East Coast. So, it seems that it WAS an East/West Coast difference, and separate decision.

The Florence Devore (Phi-Dan was released on a store stock issue on both styrene (from Monarch), and vinyl (Midwest and East Coast).

Yes, I've been seeing your posts here for over a year now. I don't post much at Soulful Detroit anymore, because there are not many threads have any interest for me there these days, unless I START IT.

I think it's a slightly different mix. Nice to see you arrived here, Larry, if this is you!

Only one "gem" for me - the uptempo version of "Envious" by Linda Griner. That proves that a well-written song will sound good at any tempo. I like the Oma Heard and Brenda Holloway's version of "Lonely Teardrops:, as well as one of The Gladys Knights, one of The Connie Haines' and The Lollipops. All in all, it's roughly at the quality I expected" a few pleasant surprises, and most of the rest listenable, but nothing special, or songs I already had in some form. But, I'd have gotten it just for The Linda Griner. alone.

Jack is one of Marvin Jones' best friends. Dan Mancha is yet another stage name for another guy Don suggested use his family name.

Good catch. I'm convinced the bootleggers leave a little something small, but obvious when finally seen, just to keep peope from thinking they tried to flood the market with boots, and, perhaps, pass some off through secondary sellers, as originals. I am also of the opinion that those boots were made in Britain. Why bother to have a US plant press them, and then have to ship them to UK, when the existing US plants can't make them look any more legitimate than these are?

Not to mention "Catologue Music"on the Musicor record, rather than "Catalogue", and my friend, Dennis Coffey should be insulted that his name is misspelled as: "Coffee". Do they make one small misspelling to identify it easily as NOT being original, for those amateurs, that don't know how the original fonts for each pressing plant looked.

I also have the raised X on the "I Love You 1000 Times" side, with ZTSP 106382 1 Delta on the flip. So, it was mastered by ALCO in Hollywood, and pressed at Allied Pressing plant. As you might remember from a thread we had a couple years ago, the Delta symbol does NOT always indicate Monarch Pressing Plant in L.A. When NOT, it indicates Allied. Allied was connected to ARDCO (Allied Record Distribution Co.), which distributed many small, independent L.A.-based record labels. ALCO Steel made the stampers for Allield, and, if I remember correctly, was Allied Steel, owner of Allied Pressing Plant and ARDCO, as well.

That was the flip of "I Love You 1000 Times", which was their biggest hit on Musicor. I have the "Don't Hear, Speak, See No Evil" version. It has the ZTSP pressing code, indicating that it was likely pressed in Columbia's New York plant. I bought it in 1966, when the record was out, so we know that it was legitimate, and, thus, not a bootleg. There were a small number of ZTSPs pressed in Hollywood, California. And this was pressed on styrene. But, New York's plant used styrene as well, at times. I bought this in Chicago, and we mainly got Columbia pressings from New York. Columbia Chicago/Terre Haute, Indiana was used mainly for custom, small outside label runs from Detroit and Chicago. I've seen a lot of both titles, but I think that there were more of the one I have originally pressed.

Yes, thats's the legitimate jukebox issue. I bought it in 1964. Unfortunately, I didn't get it with the cardboard picture cover.

Going abroad isn't cheap for ANYONE! (unless your boss or clients are paying for it!

That must be München, they are constantly sending me invitations to attend (I live there 2-3 months per year). I also live in Noord Holland for 5-6 months. So. I could potentially attend the Amsterdam nighter. I also live 1-2 months in Nord Sjaeland in Danmark, so could attend Soul venues in Kopenhagen.

Great for me to see it. I watched the first episode -4 hours. Great to see what all these people look like, who I have dealt with for records, and or had conversations with on fora, or heard stories about. NONE of them look even remotely as I'd imagined them. It gave me a little better perspective on Northern Soul, especially the late 1960s pre- NS Soul scene, and Northern Soul in the early '70s (before I came to Lancashire to meet any Soulies.