Robbk

I have been looking through literally millions of US 45s since 1953 (more than a million between 1958 and 1972 - when I could have seen that record). And, yet, I have never seen one, nor heard of one, and I have always seen it listed as unreleased. Apparently, it was slated for release, but then pulled back. Then "Don't Cry No More" was released as the flip of Duke 340, with "St. James Infirmary" as the "A" Side. I think that Don Robey was so enthusiastic about the latter's chances of becoming a big hit, that he junked Bland's non-hit-worthy release, and hurriedly got the new pairing of recordings ready for a quick release.

"Manufactured by Phonogram, Inc." gives that away, as Mercury had been bought by a conglomerate by the start of the 1970s.

Surely someone must have asked Don, Melvin or Steve who The Professionals were? Don't we know the answer to that question (and also which of the 2 records was released first)? I'm sure that The Professionals was released quite a bit before the second Groove City release (e.g. the second series was a "resurrection" of that label, and that The Professionals came out as a 2nd Don Davis label, while Groovesville was still operating).

First of all, we know that Don Davis produced both versions. He and Steve Mancha were the writers. Upon listening to both versions many times, I believe that the instrumental track is basically the same (perhaps a slight adjustment added later, on the second release-but not necessarily even that). One problem is with the voice of the lead singer. The basic phrasing and intonations sound very much alike. But, The Steve Mancha vocal is much smoother, while The Professionals' is more gravelly and gruff. That could mean that the two are two different singers (e.g. that The Professionals' is Melvin Davis), OR , more likely, that both leads are Steve Mancha, but that his voice was slightly hoarse on The Professionals' take, after having sung many more takes (as in the case of Mary Wells and her final take of "Bye Bye Baby" as compared to her softer, smoother, regular singing voice). Another problem is that BOTH Steve Mancha AND Melvin Davis were protegés of Don Davis, and were working for him at the time of these recordings. And they both had that similar gravelly singing voice (as did Edward Hamilton, Clifford Binns and J.J. Barnes). Of the latter 3, only Barnes was working with Davis at the time of both recordings, and he had voice delivery mannerisms different enough from Mancha and Davis to rule him out. So, it comes down to Mancha or Melvin Davis. I believe that BOTH were Steve Mancha, and that the background singers in The Professionals were a "studio group", composed of a regular group that worked with Davis around that time (possibly The Holidays?). I'm sure that "The Professionals" were just a studio group (just a group name) to re-release Mancha's song, which had failed to sell the first time, as Mike Hanks didn't give it the push (exposure) it needed nor enough distribution to get enough sales. I don't remember EVER seeing any adverts (posters/flyers) advertising any appearances of that group, nor seeing any photos of them. So, Davis put it out on his own label to see if it could sell as a group. Or, conversely, Davis had first released it on his own label, as a group record, and it didn't sell because he had no distribution outside Detroit, and later, he leased it with a redone vocal, under Mancha's own name (when he wasn't so hoarse), trying to take advantage of Hanks' label's national distribution. It is difficult to detect the date of The Professionals' release, because that first Groove City release was NOT contiguous with all the other Groove City releases, just as Don Davis' first Groovesville Records release (777 in early 1964) occurred long before his regular series of Groovesville started as distributed by Ed Wingate's Golden World (when Don started working for him in late 1965, after he left Thelma Records). Both The Professionals and the Steve Mancha Wheelsville USA releases occurred in 1965, and it's difficult to know which came first, unless we hear it from the horse's mouth. I'm pretty sure that Don Davis is still alive, as is Melvin Davis. Not sure about Steve Mancha (Clyde Wilson). But, surely they've been asked before who sang lead on The Professionals' cuts, and who the group members were, and also which version came first? There should be SOMEONE on this forum who knows the answer to these questions because he has talked to Don Davis, Clyde Wilson or Melvin Davis about these questions. Let's hope he (or they) comment on this thread. It's too bad that we didn't ask Melvin these questions when he was posting on Soulful Detroit Forum. Nowadays, almost ALL of the 1960s Detroit music industry people who used to post there are gone (deceased or no longer posting there because the threads there are no longer interesting).

Hi Mel. Nice to see you on here. We've both got about 2,200 posts, and yet, we've never posted on the same thread??? How is that possible? We must have both posted on at least 5,000 of the same threads on Soulful Detroit, since 2001. Oh yeah....... I forgot to list Ian Melia.

Rod Shard. He heard about me, and contacted me in 1979 or so. Then, he visited me starting in 1980 or 1981, and did so every year through the 1980s and early 1990s. He was the first actual friend I made on The NS scene. Why: Because he found me a lot of great records over those years, and he hoovered my flat (so he could breathe). I was also friendly with Dave Withers. But, I had dealings with Martin Koppel, Dave Raistrick, Nev Wherry, Tim Ashibende (posing as "John Sullivan"), Ady Croasdell, Tony Rounce, John Manship, John Anderson, Bob "Larry" Wagner, and Larry (Snakepit), who used to go to The Twisted Wheel. I also had several meetings with Simon Soussan (but, I wouldn't call him a "mate"). Of course, I also visited Rod and Dave in Lancashire most of the years in the 1980s and early 1990s, plus a few years in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I attended a few all-nighters, and some dayers. I always visited John Anderson and John Manship on my annual UK visit.

I see that a few posters on this thread "gave me reputation". I hope it's not a virus! I hope it's a good reputation, and not a notorious one (as in "Look at the idiotic posts this tosser inflicts upon us!" But, seriously, folks,.... I'd like to find out what is the purpose of this forum "feature", and how it works. If it's something GOOD, like giving kudos for answering a question and providing good information, I don't understand why Roburt, who answered the question, and provided the theory with which I only agreed, didn't get the "reputation" instead of me, or, at least, along with me. Maybe I've got a 'reputation" for trying to steal glory from the rightful owners!

Van McCoy was known to have saved a lot of money and ensured the high quality of his recordings' background vocals by heavily overdubbing his own, Chris Bartley's and Kendra Spotswood's voices to produce a group sound on many of his recordings. So, given that The Vonettes were supposed to be a "studio group", it is not unlikely that once The Vonnettes' record started selling, and there was demand for appearances, that Van decided it would be better to actually have a group to appear, and found Brenda McGregor, a New York Metro Area singer, who may have been known by Kendra or another of Van's industry connections.

Actually, "Tony Orlando and Dawn" was chosen by Orlando's producer as his "artist name" before his song was released and became a hit. He needed a back-up "group". I think that Joyce Vincent was one of his back-up singers on the recording. But, his label had to sign her, and the other singer to a contract afterward, so he could have a "group" for his personal appearances.

It's a fairly fast R&B song, and does NOT have the shag/beach or Popcorn beat. So, I doubt that it was made for those markets. I also doubt that it was made for the general film-related "oldies" market, as those were all big hits. This record only did some scattered regional charting.

It doesn't look like a recent pressing. It looks more like a '70s pressing. But, maybe it WASN'T made for The NS scene, but, rather for US demand, during the 1970s?

I'm no expert on bootlegs or legitimate re-issues made for The NS, Popcorn or Beach Scenes. But, that looks like a legitimate re-issue made by H.B. Barnum (resurrecting his Little Star label to take advantage of European or US demand. I'd guess it was a late '70s or very early '80s pressing made because people from one of those scenes had contact with him, and told him of the demand. So, he pressed them up. Was that song played on The Northern scene? If so, when was it hot? Maybe that will lead you to your answer.

This sounds very reasonable and likely, as a duo is not really considered to be a "group". A minimum of 3 is required. The Raindrops, the "studio group" outlet for Jeff Barry's and Ellie Greenwich's songs (composed merely of Jeff and Ellie, themselves, needed to look and sound like a group when making personal appearances. So, they added Bobby Bosco. The same tactic could have been employed by Van McCoy with The Vonettes. These studio groups had gotten their full group sound by overdubbing in the studio. But in live performances, they needed an extra voice. So, they added in a group member. I seem to remember this situation occurring with several more studio groups, but can't remember off the top of my head, which they were.

I take it that you know That the Superlatives record and group on Uptite was from New Jersey, while the group on Dynamics and record was from Detroit. They were 2 unrelated groups.

Of Marc Gordon and Hal Davis' regular female background singers for their Los Angeles Jobete Music office, only The Holloway Sisters were signed to Motown Records as recording artists. Mary Love, Gloria Jones, Sandy Wynns (Edna Wright), and Pat Hunt were NOT signed and recorded (Mary and Gloria had to wait until when Motown moved to L.A.).

Yes. There was a paper-covered styrene pressing made at Monarch.

For Keith Hughes or any of The Motown Insiders: Has anyone ever seen a listing or heard anything about a Motown produced, Detroit-recorded version of "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" sung by a Motown-signed artist? During my Time perusing The Motown Vaults and Motown's paper documentation, I never came across any reference to such a recording. I really wonder why, as even "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)", I'm So Thankful", "You Hit Me (Right Where It Hurts)", and "My Heart is Calling You". And those songs were not nearly as good as "Bitter Into Sweet" was. I can't imagine why some Detroit producer at Motown didn't want to use it on one of his artists or groups. With all the singles and all the album cuts that needed filling, and the 24 hours a day use of the recording studios, I can't understand why it wasn't recorded by at least one Motown-contracted act. Does anyone have any ideas?

Yes, The World of Music, and, specifically, Soul Music, is very fascinating. There are always surprises popping up as the years go by. They never cease to amaze me.

No WONDER I missed the good old days in Lebanon! I was there for only a couple days during the '60s, and not inclined to use my first days there for record scrounging, rather than seeing the sights, and after that, I was only there during the civil war (1970s and 1980s). Somehow, I never thought of looking for vinyl records in the suq. I DID by several swords and daggers, a galabia (jalaba) or 2, Kufia, and aghal or 3. I looked like Jordan's King Hussain when doffing my Arab attire (except that I, unlike The King, had a long beard. So, during my time in Jordan, I was thought to be an Imam by my Bedu neighbours (who used to drive their goats below my window at 5:00 AM every morning (just after The Muezzen blasted his message that "God is Great, and it is better to pray than to sleep!"

Ha! Ha! Genius! Absolute genius! This is one of the very best comic strips I have EVER seen - and that's saying a lot, - as I have vast experience in that area, as a cartoonist, myself, who creates comic books and comic strips professionally, and have been doing that for more than 30 years..

Yes, exactly. That interview was some years ago. It may well have been after the statute of limitations. I'm sure Dunbar made a promise to HDH on what he'd say if asked. So, I expect him to keep his word until HDH are deceased, or they admit, publicly, all the details.

I agree with Frank. The instrumental rambles all over the place, unlike most of the Detroit-produced Motown cuts that have solid structure. His vocal was uneven, too. I bought the record for the flip side, "Sweeter As The Days Go By", which sounds much more like a Gordon-Wilson song (like "I'm So Thankful"). To me, Frank Wilson's solo written songs all had no structure, and rambled all over the place. I think that he needed Marc Gordon to rein in his wildness, and provide structure to his songs. I absolutely HATED his solo songs on Power Records, "Bridge of Love", etc. But, after working in Detroit, he became a better writer, and wrote a few very good songs on his own. But, I really love some of the best Gordon-Wilson songs, like "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet". I'm still waiting for a Motown artist version (recorded in Detroit by The Funk Brothers) to be found in The Vaults.

The actor's name is spelt: Joseph Cotten. So, no, I don't think it was he who recorded this. I doubt if he could have sung so soulful a rendition. I am actually a friend of the actor's son. And, I doubt that producer, Danny Thomas, was the actor-comedian star of "Make Room For Daddy, generous benefactor of Saint Jude's Hospital, and father of Marlo Thomas. That Pashlo record is interesting. What year was it released? Is it an l.A. production?

Dunbar HAD to use "selective memory", and refer to Edith Wayne as his partner, because of the potential legal ramifications to HDH. If he mentioned that HDH wrote the music for that song("Band of Gold"), or, that Eddie Holland co-wrote the lyrics (IF he, indeed did), he'd have been out of a job. So, there are no surprises there.

This is a joke, isn't it? Do they actually sell American Soul music there? I lived in Jordan for 6 years, and Arab countries for 15 years and all I remember is traditional Arab music being played on the radio. I know there were a few discos and Western nightclubs in Beirut, but would ABC really spend money to market their records in Lebanon for that tiny minority crowd???