Robbk

You mean most of their Mercury cuts. ALL their Federal cuts were greasy and even raunchy, at times. Also, a few of the Mercury cuts were pure R&B, like "Bark, Battle & Ball".

At least Berry didn't let his ego keep himself from admitting his mistake. Motown would have been somewhat less for not having had The Miracles, and, especially, Smokey Robinson, involved.

I assume that any label "restoration" would be considered additional defacing of an original label, and should reduce the record's value, rather than increase it, as artwork added could never pass for part of an original label, because the aging of the paper would be different. I doubt if artwork could be added where someone with good eyes couldn't tell that that had been done.

I've never seen a West Coast pressing of that record.

Was this release AFTER their Mir-A-Don and M.B.S. releases, or before?

The Crickets (MGM-early '50s vocal harmony R&B group) (Buddy Holly's late '50s early '60s group), Tempos (Det. Soul group-Riley's/Diamond Jim), (late '50s East Coast White Doo Wop Group), Jewels (early '50s L.A. R&B group)('60s Girls Wash. DC Soul Group) ('60s N.Y. Girls Soul Group), Ascots-(Mir-A-Don/M.B.S. D.C. group) (Huey Meaux Texas group), Individuals ('50s R&B group (Showtime) (60s Soul group), Arcades ('50s East Coast Harmony group) (late '50s early '60s R&B/Soul group), The Four Seasons (Frankie Valli group) (Pittsburgh group (Alanna), Dots (female '50s R&B group) Five Dots(early '50s R&B male group), The Mints (N.Y. '50s male R&B group) The Four Mints (Columbus male Soul group), Devotions ('50s NY male Doo Wop group) ('60s female Detroit Soul group), Deans (late '50s East Coast White Pop group) ('60s Detroit Soul group)

Here's one of theirs from 1953: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv7lp4W9pIw

Nobody mentioned their early '50s period on Federal Records. They were one of the great L.A. early '50s vocal harmony groups along with The Hollywood Flames, Robins, Flairs, Arthur Lee Maye & The Crowns, Jacks, etc. They had a less instrumentally polished sound, stressing vocal talent and harmony, rather than strings and horns. It was a more raw and basic sound, but very classy.

Yes. I have both, and they are exactly the same take. And, back in the old days, The Proto-Jays was much rarer. i have never heard of any other takes of that cut.

Another cut that sounds a LOT more like "The Chicago Sound" than like Motown.

Yes. I'M one of those blokes.

There was also an L.A. instrumental group called The Originals (I believe the were The Champs, moonlighting).

The Passions (NY White Doo-Wop group, Philadelphia Girls Group), Billy Joe & The Checkmates. The Checkmates, Checkmates, Ltd., Tangeers('60s Soul) Tangiers ('50s R&B Decca/Specialty), Voice Masters(Anna/Check-Mate-Detroit), (Bamboo-St. Louis), (Francisco-New Orleans), Dramatics (Joe Hunter/Fred Brown Detroit group -Crackerjack) (WingateVolt/Mercury Detroit Group), Blossoms(Darlene Love L.A. group) (NY Okeh group)(D.C. Blossoms- Shrine). Blue Jays('50s Chicago Chess-Checker)(Hollywood Blue Jays(AKA Hollywood Flames-L.A. '50s), (early'60s Leon Peels Group), Eagles ('50s R&B group-Mercury)('70s-present White Rock group).

I agree. I can only speak for my own taste. We all come from unique, different points of view. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. Often people are talking about apples, when others are talking about oranges. They aren't disagreeing, they are talking about different issues, which, sometimes can produce superfluous posts in the minds of some of the posters.

It doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Heatwave" to me, other than a few notes similar to Martha's voice mannerisms. It's a typical Ashford-Simpson faster song (fast mid-tempo), which were typically sung by The Apollas. This sounds a lot more like an Apollas' song than a Motown song.

"The Real Thing" sounds pure Ashford-Simpson. But NOT the Motown Ashford-Simpson, but the New York Ashford-Simpson of Scepter-Wand. Actually, this light-hearted mid tempo song sounds more like a "Chicago Sound" song than a Motown song.

There was also a Soulettes group in L.A., and probably at the very least, 6 Sequins groups (NY(Goffin-King), Atlanta, L.A., Chicago, Detroit, East Coast (Wash/Balt.?)

USA is a ridiculously sue-happy nation, in which a large portion of the lawsuits and what judges and juries "find" for the plaintiff has no basis in logic or "fairness". Agreeing with Berry Gordy that a competitor "stole" the opening hook from one of his songs to benefit from what Gordy's employees produced does NOT mean that "1-2-3" really sounds like a Motown cut. First, we have to define what "sounding like a Motown cut" means. To ME, it means, if someone plays me an unknown instrumental recording, and asks me, "do you think this recording was recorded by people currently employed by Motown Record Corp., or Tamla, Motown, Miracle, or Rayber Records before incorporated?", and I and I answer YES (whether I am correct or incorrect), then, yes, the cut "sounds like a Motown cut". If I say, "I don't think so", it DOES NOT (regardless of whether or not it really WAS recorded by Motown personnel). What I guess as being a Motown recording probably will have at least 5 of the 8 elements for which I listen, and often more (6 to 8). For most of you here, even as low as 1 to 3 of those elements suffice for it to "sound like Motown" to you. I understand that. We just have different points of reference. As far as what we like. THAT is very different. Much of what Northern Soul fans like, because "it 'sounds like Motown' " I don't like very much, don't even like in the slightest, or even detest. That song above, "Marching Out of Your Life", does nothing for me. Yet, we probably ALL agree that "This Old Heart of Mine (is Weak For You)" is a fantastic recording. I like "1-2-3" a lot. But, to me, it sounds like an Northeast/East Coast (NY/Philly hybrid)-to be more specific, a Johnny Madera cut - almost NOTHING like a Motown cut, I'm someone who thinks Stevenson-Hunter songs sound extremely different from Dean-Weatherspoon and Fuqua-Bristol cuts. I can see that laypeople, and even many Soulies might not notice nor care about such differences. In other words, just because a song may have an element or two that REMINDS me of Motown, doesn't mean I will like it. A lot more goes into my deciding to like a song than one or two of its elements. With many NS fans, just having a good, danceable beat is enough.

Exactly why it sounds mostly like a New York cut with a little Philadelphia flavour, and NOT like a Motown cut.

Yes, The Motown Sound is much "fuller" than The Funk Brothers playing for Ed Wingate, Don Davis and LeBaron Taylor, Wilbur Golden and other producers/label owners. How the equipment is miked and recorded, plus the mix etc. Signature drum fills, guitar back beats and riffs and more players contribute to the fuller sound. I have listened to "Dear Tammi". It has a nice, full sound. But, it is not as crisp and clear as typical mid '60s Motown cuts. But, maybe that's partly a function of my speakers?

OEPS!!! I thought I was READING Eddie Daye! No, there was no Sonny Daye with The 4 Bars.So, there were only 2 Sonny Dayes. Sorry! But, I am old. I have an excuse. I can't find an emoticon for embarrassment, so a pirate will have to do. As The Duets sang, "Please Forgive Me".

One in the same. Baltimore/Washington are very close, almost like twin cities. They behave like one single metropolitan area.

I understand his point very well. To me, only the first 4-5 cuts I've listed on this thread really "sound like Motown recordings" to me. All the rest really are just "reminiscent of Motown". as they only share sameness in one or 2 of the different elements in the recording. I can almost always tell the difference, for example, in recordings in Golden World Studio before and after Motown took over EVEN though most (if not ALL) the session instrument players were working for Motown at the time of their sessions for Wingate, and even the arrangers and songwriters had previously worked for Motown. I also can't remember an HDH production for one of their own labels, which really sounded like a Motown production. Sure, they all had 1-3 elements that sounded like Motown. But, for me, there are 7 or 8 elements that must ALL or most sound like Motown to reach the quality of a Motown recording. But, then, I've been called insane - to which Rod S. can attest.

Then there were THREE Sonny Dayes! Frank Wilson, the lead singer of Washington D.C.'s 4 Bars, and Tje lead of L.A.'s Sly, Slick & The Wicked. It reminds me of how many Robert Kleins there are!

Yes, she became enamoured with those songs from hearing them on that tour. And she suggested that she record an LP of them. The Fox bigwigs liked the idea, not knowing that the "Pop market" wouldn't take to them. Those recordings just don't have much zip and energy to them, probably because her Soul producers and arrangers weren't all that inspired by The Beatles' songs, and making Pop records wasn't their expertise.