Robbk

The Del-Phi's record came out only on Check-Mate, but the group was signed to Kable at the time and, I'm sure that the session was paid for by Brown and Hunter, rather than Chess. Otherwise, the master would have been found long ago, together with other Chess masters. I'm sure that Brown and Hunter, as Kable Record Co., leased the masters to Check-Mate Records (Chess).

I knew there was lots of interchange between Cleveland and Detroit back then. But it was mostly Cleveland talent going to Detroit to record, because Detroit had a LOT of good and decent studios, and Cleveland only had a couple decent ones. Detroit had a plethora of good session musicians, while Cleveland had very few. Joe Hunter, having been a band leader for so many years had many connections in Detroit studios. Why would he and his partner, Fred Brown take his session musicians ans singing artists all the way to Cleveland, to record in a mediocre studio? It couldn't be that they couldn't get a recording date in ANY of the 50+ available Detroit Studios. Even Motown's Snakepit was available for rent back then. Could The Del-Phi's have been on a weekend gig in Cleveland, and Brown and Hunter decided to take their backing band into a Cleveland studio while there? Even that doesn't make sense.

I'm interested in his early life AND, more importantly, his earlier career, up to the point when he started The Watts 103rd Street Band. He was part of a circle of L.A, songwriters and producers that had connections with H. B. Barnum and Frank Wilson and Marc Gordon, Willie Hutchison and Hal Davis during the early to mid '60s, which is undoubtedly how he came to use some songs in his productions that he had written for Los Angeles' Jobete Music office. I'm interested in find out with whom he was working, how he made which connections, what he recorded for whom (who owns the masters now, if there's anything left in the can.

Why would Fred Brown, Joe Hunter and Dave Hamilton take other Detroit session players and a Detroit group to Cleveland to record???

Yes, and a "Baxter" was also involved. I don't recognise that combination of names (Wright/Hanson/Phillips/Baxter/Jones/DeBose(De Brossard) in any production group in any city. L.A. had Arthur and Charles Wright, Chicago had Phil Wright.

The Ambassadors' cuts sound absolutely NOTHING like Detroit recordings. The Ambassadors, Intertains and Marsha Gee all were Wri-Han (Wright-Hanson or Wright-Hanson-Phillips) Productions. Their songs were all published by Smashville Music. If I remember correctly, I was told many years ago that The Intertains were from Cleveland. But, I also have a record by The Symphonics (female group) on Dee-Jon Records (which I thought was from Philadelphia, both songs on which were publishrd by Smashville Music, but written by Charles DeBose. Could "DeBose" have been a misspelling of "DeB(r)ose (short for DeBrossard (owner's name)? I also remember hearing that Marsha Gee was said to have been from Philadelphia (but also heard Cleveland). I would guess those 3 records (and, probably The Dee-Jon, as well) were produced in Cleveland, rather than L.A., Detroit, or Philadelphia. I just don't hear anything in anything in any of those 6 cuts that sounds like session players or recording studios in those other cities. The Dee-Jon looks like a Detroit pressing. Many Toledo and Cleveland records were pressed in Detroit. It looks like it has ARP stamped on it.

"Back Up Train" got a lot of action on the Soul charts, and got a lot of air play in Chicago, Detroit, L.A. San Francisco Bay Area and NewYork/New Jersey. I don't remember it getting any play on the Pop stations.

"Heartbeat" was a pretty big hit on the Soul stations. I think it charted on the Pop stations, as well.

I've heard from several ex-Motowners, and read in several quotes from interviews and quotes about Motown's recordings, that they often used two drummers, two bassists, several guitarists on the same recording, and THAT is how they got the "Motown Full Sound". They often had Pistol Allen AND Benny Benjamin, or Benjamin AND Uriel Jones, and, yes, I heard that they had Newton along with Jamerson, and Robert White and Joe Messina. I've seen Tony Newton on a LOT of the recording lists for many, many songs at Motown. He certainly worked on a lot of sessions there. I recognise a good many of those names above as regular session players at Motown (Trombonist, Herbie Williams, Miller Brisker (Bonnie Brisker's brother), Choker Campbell, Tate Houston, Norris Patterson, Johnny Wilson, Tommy Perkson, Marvin Tarplin, Cornelius Grant, Teddy Harris, James Outcault, etc. There certainly were a LOT more regular session musicians than the 11 or 12 so-called "Funk Brothers" (who were mostly Joe Hunter's Band (Pre-Motown)). Famous so-called "non-Motowners", like Don Davis, Bruce McGregor, Johnny Allen, Gil Askey, Melvin Davis also played on many sessions at Motown. I think Tony Newton's session work on Edwin Starr's cuts were BEFORE Motown took over Golden World' studio, and before they got Edwin's contract.

Weren't Pat and Lolly Vegas the founders and lead creative artistic members of Redbone?

I also mentioned there were other Ambassadors groups, but didn't get specific. Another was the L.A. group on Uptown, and a late '50s New York group. One of these was Donnie Murphy & The Ambassadors on RedBug Records, produced by Gene Redd. The record was pressed at King Records' pressing plant in late 1964 or early 1965, and may have been a subsidiary of King. Located in Cincinnati, Ohio, and being close in time to The Ambassadors' Uptown release, those Red Bug Ambassadors may have been the Cleveland group. Imaginations on Bacon Fat (Black Philly group), Imaginations(Caucasian New York DooWop group).

Spyder told us that his mother told him to change the "i" to "y", as it would make his name more "memorable". As to his playing the part of the spider after the film: He mentioned that he was the class "cut up" in his elementary school. He used to get attention from the girls by creeping up behind them to scare them, with his "spider routine". That act was his calling card, and the nickname stuck. He's a very good singer, a sharp and funny guy. To me, his "I Can't Make It Anymore" is one of the classic Detroit cuts. It couldn't become a giant Northern hit because it wasn't a rare record.

Excellent slow Soul version. I like Spyder's, Richie's, this one and Henfield's as well. That shows how great a song this is, that can be sung in almost any style and sound great.

I always thought that The Ambassadors on Uptown were an L.A. group, different from The Philly and Detroit groups. So that makes 3 Ambassadors groups from three different cities. But, of course, there were more. I seem to remember a late '50s group from New York, and a few others. But this should be on the "Groups With Same Names" thread (actually, it is). Does anyone here know anything about this Uptown group? It's a "Wri - Han Production". Does the "Wri" stand for Arthur Wright? I know that Smashville Music was Uptown's in-house music publishing company, so it's likely to have been a local L.A. signing and production.

Ha! Ha! I must be older than I thought. I was sure I'd mentioned Johnnie Mae Matthews' Detroit Ambassadors vs. The Philly Arctic/Atlantic group, and The Caucasian DooWop Temptations vs. Motown group, and also Columbus' Ace Supremes vs. Motown group! I'm too busy to go back and look, but I'd bet I'd find ALL of those in my posts above. But this thread is now too long to remember all the entries. But, there are still many hundreds of same group names we haven't mentioned (if not thousands (if we count different music genres), even if we don't confuse "Skip & Fruit" with "Skip & Flip"!

Thanks!

I bought this when it was new. Curtis Mayfield is my top songwriter. I've searched in vain for an original release on a Chicago artist for these 50 years. Has anyone heard if there was a release of this song sung by a Chicago artist? Even just an unreleased demo version?

Thanks! Wow! I'd love to hear all the songs from that session. Was it before or after the Kable one?

As far as I remember, Fred Brown and Joe Hunter recorded their Kable cuts in mid to late 1961 and early 1962 at United Sound Systems with Hunter arranging and Don Davis on lead guitar. The Del-Phi's 2 cuts, were recorded in early 1962 (February or March) if I remember correctly. I can't imagine why Dave Hamilton ended up with "It Takes Two". Brown and Hunter leased "It Takes Two" and "I'll Let You Know" to Billy Davis' Check-Mate Records (Chess subsidiary). Chess may have only had use of the master for a year or two. It should have reverted back to Brown and Hunter. Could Dave Hamilton have bought it from them?

Both sides are great. I have all their records. I had their Reo release, but traded it off many years ago. I've traded off more than half of my Canadian records over the years. I had already moved to USA when their Apex release came out. But, I've had pressings from 2 or 3 different plants.

I wonder why "It Takes Two" by The Del-Phi's (Dell-Fi's) ((Martha & Vandellas with Gloria Williamson on lead (Motown's Vells)) is included in a Dave Hamilton CD. That session was run and produced by Joe Hunter and Fred Brown for their Kable Records. Hunter was the pianist and arranger, and Don Davis was lead guitarist. Maybe Dave Hamilton was 2nd guitarist (he certainly didn't play the vibes on it). Hamilton wasn't likely to have been as important as Hunter or Brown on that session. I guess Ady will chime in on this, and give us the lowdown.

This is definitely true. Pianists/arrangers Joe Hunter, Johnny Allen, Gil Askey were all Jazz musicians, as were ALL of Joe Hunter's band (including Mike Terry, James Jamerson, drummers Benny Benjamin, Uriel Jones and Pistol Allen, Robert White, Joe Messina, sax man Beans Bowles, guitarist Don Davis (Don Davis Trio). trombonist Herbie Williams, etc. Earl Van Dyke and Popcorn Wylie were Jazz pianists before Motown. I would say that MOST Motown session players played Jazz. Those few who didn't (Gordon Staples-Motown Strings) played Classical music.

So! You don't want members here to know who you are on SDF, eh? You'll notice that I have the same member name on every forum I frequent, and my own legal name is well known and relatively easy to find from most of those fora. Luckily, all my valuable records are buried in an underground bunker in The Libyan Desert, south of the line between Benghazi and El Alamein. So, if a Soul records thief were to break into my house in The Netherlands, or mine in USA, or my flat in Germany or in Denmark, they'd find nothing but some ancient cassette tapes, homemade CDs, and some Ace/Kent CDs and a few reprint LPs.

Why not? Lot's of posters here respect Soulful Detroit as a great (former) resource for information on Detroit in the '60s. What was your handle (monniker) there?

Which other place? The one Wade Flemons sang about? Or Soulful Detroit, Motown Junkies, Motown Records Corp., Airwave Records, or the other Northern Soul forum I frequented before Soul-Source? (I'm embarrassed to admit that I've forgotten its name. )