Robbk

MOST of their talent from Cleveland? Weren't The Intertains, Ambassadors and Marsha Gee ALL from Cleveland? And, with The Symphonics on Dee Jon also published by Smashville Music, and DeBose (DeB(r)ose as the writer and producer, I assume that DeBrossard was the financier. Do you know if The Symphonics were also from Cleveland?

One listen reveals the recording was produced for VJ by Calvin Carter in late 1962, and arranged by Riley Hampton (probably recorded at Universal), and sounds like a typical Dee Clark (Conrad published) self-penned song of the period - (so much so, that THAT is probably why it was not released - as it sounded too much like several of his other songs that had come out as singles or on his latest LP).

The Ambassadors in this Gene Redd-produced King Records. Cincinnati - pressed Red Bug cut, sound very like Cleveland's Uptown Ambassadors:

This makes a lot of sense. I don't see why these artists' Detroit-based managers wouldn't have taken advantage of Robey's connections. It would have been in their own interest, as well as their clients'.

Wow! I wonder what Chuck did to that lady? It's better to live by The Golden Rule and act like a saint. You never know with whom you are really dealing with until you cross them.

Maybe it was never released on vinyl, and only finally released on a CD of Dee Clark VJ cuts having the same title as one of the original VJ vinyl LPs. I'm not with my LPs now, so can't check. Or, maybe it was only released on VJ's Oldies 45 series, as were several previously unreleased VJ recordings. I'm sure I heard that song back in the '60s.

I'd be surprised if Carl Carlton used Buffalo Booking, as he lived in Detroit, and most of the artists on Buffalo's roster lived in Houston, or, at least, Texas. Even Buddy Guy and Otis Rush, who lived in Chicago, spent a LOT of time in The South, on The Chittlin' Circuit, and visiting family in The Delta area (not so far from Houston). I think Carlton and the other Detroit artists on Duke, Peacock and Sure Shot, came from production/lease deals with Detroit producers like Robert West, Andre Williams, Joe Hunter and others ( Carl Carlton, Bobby Williams, Jeanette Williams, Buddy Lamp, The Lamp Sisters). I assume they all lived in Detroit. They did do some of their recording in Houston. But, I think it would have been impractical for them to be represented by a firm so far away, unless they spent a lot of time on The Chittlin' Circuit in The Deep South, as The Blues singers.

It was a VJ recording, released originally on a VJ Dee Clark LP. I don't believe it's ever been on a US 45. The Stardust 45 is Canadian, and must be fairly recent (I would guess - maybe for the Popcorn market?).

It looks legit to me in colouring, print ink, font, label style cut edge of the label paper, and runout. It would be difficult to get the colouring and ink on the print to be consistently correct on a label taken from a scan or photograph. But, there's an easy way to check. It appears to be an L.A. Monarch, styrene pressing. If it IS, indeed original, it will have the following Monarch pressing Delta number: 62560. If it has a Delta number of 90000 or more, it would be a '70s boot. But, I have little doubt that it is real, and you have a fairly rare misprint.

I've known about Gloria Shannon, who is a Chicago "Barrelhouse" Blues singer ('20s & '30s style). I've listened to several of her Blues songs back-to-back with her 2 Real Side cuts, and I've come to the conclusion that SHE is the same Gloria Shannon who sang on the Real Side cuts. The background track on "Tears" doesn't sound like Detroit, but, it DOES sound like it could have been recorded in 1970-72. The Real Side record states that the song was recorded in Houston ca. 1970. I can believe that the backgrounds could have been recorded there, back then. I can also believe that Gloria Shannon could have recorded that vocal as early as the early 1970s, given that her latest Internet Photos make her appear to be in her 60s. My guess is that she recorded the 2 vocals some time in the 1970s, or any time later, to be placed over the newly-found unreleased background track of "Tears". Maybe they recorded the backgrounds for the "B" side, also at that later time. It doesn't sound so old as "Tears". Those backgrounds could possibly have been recorded in Houston, as stated on the record.

This is one of my favourites, albeit probably not the prper beat for NS dancing:

There's NO WAY that the voice on "Tears" is Gladys Knight. I've never heard that voice before. And it doesn't sound at all like the so-called "Gloria Shannon on "Shining My Lovelight". Also, the backing track on "Tears" seems awfully weak for a 1970 Motown recording, arranged by Mike Terry, and played by The Funk Brothers, albeit being recorded at United Sound rather than The Snakepit or Golden World. Recordings made by Motown at United Sound usually sounded better to me. Why would Berry have hired Mike Terry to run a session for him in 1970? Wasn't he angry at Terry for leaving him altogether in early 1965? Why didn't he just have his people recorded it for him at one of his 2 studios? It makes no sense to me, at all. If it had so low a priority to record, that it couldn't be fit into Motown's 2 studios schedules, why did it have enough priority to use The Funk Brothers in recording it at United Sound? And who was recording in The Snakepit then? Why would they bring in 3rd -string session players to record normal Motown product in The Snakepit, to take The Funk Brothers to an outside studio to record a LOWER priority project???

I hadn't noticed that same writer name. So, maybe the St. Louis group went to New Orleans to record for Frisco? The groups DO sound like each other. Regarding the 1966 existence of the Caucasian Midwestern Mad Lads: The L.A. group was DEFINITELY an African-American group that was NOT the Volt group. But, maybe the Capitol group was the Milwaukee group? The Capitol sounded Black to me, but I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of them. And I only assumed they were the same group that had worked with Motola. I've just played The Mad Lads' "Don't Cry At The Party" on Capitol, and can state that they DEFINITELY are a Black group. and the lead sounds just like the L.A. Mad Lads, so, I guess The Bally group never got another record out (that at least had any sales to speak of).

I hadn't mentioned that, nor the other Black R&B.Soul transition Mad Lads from 1961-64, who had a nice record out on Capitol in 1963, plus one or 2 more out on small L.A. labels. I think they worked with George Motola, H.B. Barnum on those, and Marion Oliver and Reggie Boyd on Capitol.

The Del-Phi's record came out only on Check-Mate, but the group was signed to Kable at the time and, I'm sure that the session was paid for by Brown and Hunter, rather than Chess. Otherwise, the master would have been found long ago, together with other Chess masters. I'm sure that Brown and Hunter, as Kable Record Co., leased the masters to Check-Mate Records (Chess).

I knew there was lots of interchange between Cleveland and Detroit back then. But it was mostly Cleveland talent going to Detroit to record, because Detroit had a LOT of good and decent studios, and Cleveland only had a couple decent ones. Detroit had a plethora of good session musicians, while Cleveland had very few. Joe Hunter, having been a band leader for so many years had many connections in Detroit studios. Why would he and his partner, Fred Brown take his session musicians ans singing artists all the way to Cleveland, to record in a mediocre studio? It couldn't be that they couldn't get a recording date in ANY of the 50+ available Detroit Studios. Even Motown's Snakepit was available for rent back then. Could The Del-Phi's have been on a weekend gig in Cleveland, and Brown and Hunter decided to take their backing band into a Cleveland studio while there? Even that doesn't make sense.

I'm interested in his early life AND, more importantly, his earlier career, up to the point when he started The Watts 103rd Street Band. He was part of a circle of L.A, songwriters and producers that had connections with H. B. Barnum and Frank Wilson and Marc Gordon, Willie Hutchison and Hal Davis during the early to mid '60s, which is undoubtedly how he came to use some songs in his productions that he had written for Los Angeles' Jobete Music office. I'm interested in find out with whom he was working, how he made which connections, what he recorded for whom (who owns the masters now, if there's anything left in the can.

Why would Fred Brown, Joe Hunter and Dave Hamilton take other Detroit session players and a Detroit group to Cleveland to record???

Yes, and a "Baxter" was also involved. I don't recognise that combination of names (Wright/Hanson/Phillips/Baxter/Jones/DeBose(De Brossard) in any production group in any city. L.A. had Arthur and Charles Wright, Chicago had Phil Wright.

The Ambassadors' cuts sound absolutely NOTHING like Detroit recordings. The Ambassadors, Intertains and Marsha Gee all were Wri-Han (Wright-Hanson or Wright-Hanson-Phillips) Productions. Their songs were all published by Smashville Music. If I remember correctly, I was told many years ago that The Intertains were from Cleveland. But, I also have a record by The Symphonics (female group) on Dee-Jon Records (which I thought was from Philadelphia, both songs on which were publishrd by Smashville Music, but written by Charles DeBose. Could "DeBose" have been a misspelling of "DeB(r)ose (short for DeBrossard (owner's name)? I also remember hearing that Marsha Gee was said to have been from Philadelphia (but also heard Cleveland). I would guess those 3 records (and, probably The Dee-Jon, as well) were produced in Cleveland, rather than L.A., Detroit, or Philadelphia. I just don't hear anything in anything in any of those 6 cuts that sounds like session players or recording studios in those other cities. The Dee-Jon looks like a Detroit pressing. Many Toledo and Cleveland records were pressed in Detroit. It looks like it has ARP stamped on it.

"Back Up Train" got a lot of action on the Soul charts, and got a lot of air play in Chicago, Detroit, L.A. San Francisco Bay Area and NewYork/New Jersey. I don't remember it getting any play on the Pop stations.

"Heartbeat" was a pretty big hit on the Soul stations. I think it charted on the Pop stations, as well.

I've heard from several ex-Motowners, and read in several quotes from interviews and quotes about Motown's recordings, that they often used two drummers, two bassists, several guitarists on the same recording, and THAT is how they got the "Motown Full Sound". They often had Pistol Allen AND Benny Benjamin, or Benjamin AND Uriel Jones, and, yes, I heard that they had Newton along with Jamerson, and Robert White and Joe Messina. I've seen Tony Newton on a LOT of the recording lists for many, many songs at Motown. He certainly worked on a lot of sessions there. I recognise a good many of those names above as regular session players at Motown (Trombonist, Herbie Williams, Miller Brisker (Bonnie Brisker's brother), Choker Campbell, Tate Houston, Norris Patterson, Johnny Wilson, Tommy Perkson, Marvin Tarplin, Cornelius Grant, Teddy Harris, James Outcault, etc. There certainly were a LOT more regular session musicians than the 11 or 12 so-called "Funk Brothers" (who were mostly Joe Hunter's Band (Pre-Motown)). Famous so-called "non-Motowners", like Don Davis, Bruce McGregor, Johnny Allen, Gil Askey, Melvin Davis also played on many sessions at Motown. I think Tony Newton's session work on Edwin Starr's cuts were BEFORE Motown took over Golden World' studio, and before they got Edwin's contract.

Weren't Pat and Lolly Vegas the founders and lead creative artistic members of Redbone?

I also mentioned there were other Ambassadors groups, but didn't get specific. Another was the L.A. group on Uptown, and a late '50s New York group. One of these was Donnie Murphy & The Ambassadors on RedBug Records, produced by Gene Redd. The record was pressed at King Records' pressing plant in late 1964 or early 1965, and may have been a subsidiary of King. Located in Cincinnati, Ohio, and being close in time to The Ambassadors' Uptown release, those Red Bug Ambassadors may have been the Cleveland group. Imaginations on Bacon Fat (Black Philly group), Imaginations(Caucasian New York DooWop group).