Robbk

As far as I remember, Fred Brown and Joe Hunter recorded their Kable cuts in mid to late 1961 and early 1962 at United Sound Systems with Hunter arranging and Don Davis on lead guitar. The Del-Phi's 2 cuts, were recorded in early 1962 (February or March) if I remember correctly. I can't imagine why Dave Hamilton ended up with "It Takes Two". Brown and Hunter leased "It Takes Two" and "I'll Let You Know" to Billy Davis' Check-Mate Records (Chess subsidiary). Chess may have only had use of the master for a year or two. It should have reverted back to Brown and Hunter. Could Dave Hamilton have bought it from them?

Both sides are great. I have all their records. I had their Reo release, but traded it off many years ago. I've traded off more than half of my Canadian records over the years. I had already moved to USA when their Apex release came out. But, I've had pressings from 2 or 3 different plants.

I wonder why "It Takes Two" by The Del-Phi's (Dell-Fi's) ((Martha & Vandellas with Gloria Williamson on lead (Motown's Vells)) is included in a Dave Hamilton CD. That session was run and produced by Joe Hunter and Fred Brown for their Kable Records. Hunter was the pianist and arranger, and Don Davis was lead guitarist. Maybe Dave Hamilton was 2nd guitarist (he certainly didn't play the vibes on it). Hamilton wasn't likely to have been as important as Hunter or Brown on that session. I guess Ady will chime in on this, and give us the lowdown.

This is definitely true. Pianists/arrangers Joe Hunter, Johnny Allen, Gil Askey were all Jazz musicians, as were ALL of Joe Hunter's band (including Mike Terry, James Jamerson, drummers Benny Benjamin, Uriel Jones and Pistol Allen, Robert White, Joe Messina, sax man Beans Bowles, guitarist Don Davis (Don Davis Trio). trombonist Herbie Williams, etc. Earl Van Dyke and Popcorn Wylie were Jazz pianists before Motown. I would say that MOST Motown session players played Jazz. Those few who didn't (Gordon Staples-Motown Strings) played Classical music.

So! You don't want members here to know who you are on SDF, eh? You'll notice that I have the same member name on every forum I frequent, and my own legal name is well known and relatively easy to find from most of those fora. Luckily, all my valuable records are buried in an underground bunker in The Libyan Desert, south of the line between Benghazi and El Alamein. So, if a Soul records thief were to break into my house in The Netherlands, or mine in USA, or my flat in Germany or in Denmark, they'd find nothing but some ancient cassette tapes, homemade CDs, and some Ace/Kent CDs and a few reprint LPs.

Why not? Lot's of posters here respect Soulful Detroit as a great (former) resource for information on Detroit in the '60s. What was your handle (monniker) there?

Which other place? The one Wade Flemons sang about? Or Soulful Detroit, Motown Junkies, Motown Records Corp., Airwave Records, or the other Northern Soul forum I frequented before Soul-Source? (I'm embarrassed to admit that I've forgotten its name. )

You mean most of their Mercury cuts. ALL their Federal cuts were greasy and even raunchy, at times. Also, a few of the Mercury cuts were pure R&B, like "Bark, Battle & Ball".

At least Berry didn't let his ego keep himself from admitting his mistake. Motown would have been somewhat less for not having had The Miracles, and, especially, Smokey Robinson, involved.

I assume that any label "restoration" would be considered additional defacing of an original label, and should reduce the record's value, rather than increase it, as artwork added could never pass for part of an original label, because the aging of the paper would be different. I doubt if artwork could be added where someone with good eyes couldn't tell that that had been done.

I've never seen a West Coast pressing of that record.

Was this release AFTER their Mir-A-Don and M.B.S. releases, or before?

The Crickets (MGM-early '50s vocal harmony R&B group) (Buddy Holly's late '50s early '60s group), Tempos (Det. Soul group-Riley's/Diamond Jim), (late '50s East Coast White Doo Wop Group), Jewels (early '50s L.A. R&B group)('60s Girls Wash. DC Soul Group) ('60s N.Y. Girls Soul Group), Ascots-(Mir-A-Don/M.B.S. D.C. group) (Huey Meaux Texas group), Individuals ('50s R&B group (Showtime) (60s Soul group), Arcades ('50s East Coast Harmony group) (late '50s early '60s R&B/Soul group), The Four Seasons (Frankie Valli group) (Pittsburgh group (Alanna), Dots (female '50s R&B group) Five Dots(early '50s R&B male group), The Mints (N.Y. '50s male R&B group) The Four Mints (Columbus male Soul group), Devotions ('50s NY male Doo Wop group) ('60s female Detroit Soul group), Deans (late '50s East Coast White Pop group) ('60s Detroit Soul group)

Here's one of theirs from 1953: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv7lp4W9pIw

Nobody mentioned their early '50s period on Federal Records. They were one of the great L.A. early '50s vocal harmony groups along with The Hollywood Flames, Robins, Flairs, Arthur Lee Maye & The Crowns, Jacks, etc. They had a less instrumentally polished sound, stressing vocal talent and harmony, rather than strings and horns. It was a more raw and basic sound, but very classy.

Yes. I have both, and they are exactly the same take. And, back in the old days, The Proto-Jays was much rarer. i have never heard of any other takes of that cut.

Another cut that sounds a LOT more like "The Chicago Sound" than like Motown.

Yes. I'M one of those blokes.

There was also an L.A. instrumental group called The Originals (I believe the were The Champs, moonlighting).

The Passions (NY White Doo-Wop group, Philadelphia Girls Group), Billy Joe & The Checkmates. The Checkmates, Checkmates, Ltd., Tangeers('60s Soul) Tangiers ('50s R&B Decca/Specialty), Voice Masters(Anna/Check-Mate-Detroit), (Bamboo-St. Louis), (Francisco-New Orleans), Dramatics (Joe Hunter/Fred Brown Detroit group -Crackerjack) (WingateVolt/Mercury Detroit Group), Blossoms(Darlene Love L.A. group) (NY Okeh group)(D.C. Blossoms- Shrine). Blue Jays('50s Chicago Chess-Checker)(Hollywood Blue Jays(AKA Hollywood Flames-L.A. '50s), (early'60s Leon Peels Group), Eagles ('50s R&B group-Mercury)('70s-present White Rock group).

I agree. I can only speak for my own taste. We all come from unique, different points of view. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. Often people are talking about apples, when others are talking about oranges. They aren't disagreeing, they are talking about different issues, which, sometimes can produce superfluous posts in the minds of some of the posters.

It doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Heatwave" to me, other than a few notes similar to Martha's voice mannerisms. It's a typical Ashford-Simpson faster song (fast mid-tempo), which were typically sung by The Apollas. This sounds a lot more like an Apollas' song than a Motown song.

"The Real Thing" sounds pure Ashford-Simpson. But NOT the Motown Ashford-Simpson, but the New York Ashford-Simpson of Scepter-Wand. Actually, this light-hearted mid tempo song sounds more like a "Chicago Sound" song than a Motown song.

There was also a Soulettes group in L.A., and probably at the very least, 6 Sequins groups (NY(Goffin-King), Atlanta, L.A., Chicago, Detroit, East Coast (Wash/Balt.?)

USA is a ridiculously sue-happy nation, in which a large portion of the lawsuits and what judges and juries "find" for the plaintiff has no basis in logic or "fairness". Agreeing with Berry Gordy that a competitor "stole" the opening hook from one of his songs to benefit from what Gordy's employees produced does NOT mean that "1-2-3" really sounds like a Motown cut. First, we have to define what "sounding like a Motown cut" means. To ME, it means, if someone plays me an unknown instrumental recording, and asks me, "do you think this recording was recorded by people currently employed by Motown Record Corp., or Tamla, Motown, Miracle, or Rayber Records before incorporated?", and I and I answer YES (whether I am correct or incorrect), then, yes, the cut "sounds like a Motown cut". If I say, "I don't think so", it DOES NOT (regardless of whether or not it really WAS recorded by Motown personnel). What I guess as being a Motown recording probably will have at least 5 of the 8 elements for which I listen, and often more (6 to 8). For most of you here, even as low as 1 to 3 of those elements suffice for it to "sound like Motown" to you. I understand that. We just have different points of reference. As far as what we like. THAT is very different. Much of what Northern Soul fans like, because "it 'sounds like Motown' " I don't like very much, don't even like in the slightest, or even detest. That song above, "Marching Out of Your Life", does nothing for me. Yet, we probably ALL agree that "This Old Heart of Mine (is Weak For You)" is a fantastic recording. I like "1-2-3" a lot. But, to me, it sounds like an Northeast/East Coast (NY/Philly hybrid)-to be more specific, a Johnny Madera cut - almost NOTHING like a Motown cut, I'm someone who thinks Stevenson-Hunter songs sound extremely different from Dean-Weatherspoon and Fuqua-Bristol cuts. I can see that laypeople, and even many Soulies might not notice nor care about such differences. In other words, just because a song may have an element or two that REMINDS me of Motown, doesn't mean I will like it. A lot more goes into my deciding to like a song than one or two of its elements. With many NS fans, just having a good, danceable beat is enough.