Robbk

I don't remember ever noticing those Summit records. I DO remember seeing Mcfarland's RPR issue, during the late 1960s. That leads me to believe they were released 1972 or later, as IF I passed them in shuffling through 45s, I didn't pay attention to them because they had a "well-into-The '70s design", representing a time when I didn't like much of them music released. Does anyone know when the Jimmy McFarland Summit 45 was issued?

Rather than trying to distill the long essay down to some basic points, I've decided to give you a specific example of the type of explanation of one of the possible participation scenarios I might have used in my answer to your question. Here is a general description of Johnny Terry's projects, in which he acted as a Middle Man: Some of you Detroit Soul fans might know his name from producer credits on Soul records recorded in Detroit, but released on New York record labels, and wondered how that came about. Working out of New York in the early to later mid 1960s, singing and recording with The Drifters, he knew a lot of people in that city's music industry (musicians, record label owners, and songwriters). Apparently, he had connections in Detroit, as well. I don't know if he was a cousin of Andrew (Mike ) Terry, as Winford (Johnny) was raised in Washington, D.C. But Mike arranged a few sessions on Johnny Terry's recording sessions in Detroit. Starting in 1965, when his time with Drifters was winding down (he left them in 1966), he started getting involved in producing records (on the executive producer level), mainly as a middle man, getting talented artists or independent record producers paired up with recording session producers, and/or record labels that wanted to press and distribute their records. His main Detroit project financier was Don Montgomery, who owned The Travler Motel. Travler Music Publishing Co. was either set up by Montgomery alone, or a partnership of Montgomery and John (Winford) Terry, to publish their projects' songs. Together, they partnered with Don (Juan) Mancha, in deals made with New York's Scepter-Wand/Garrison Records, in which they used Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey, or Mike Terry to arrange their songs in Detroit recording sessions. Johnny Terry must have gotten to know Scepter-Wand's Florence Greenberg through Brill Building song writers that wrote for The Drifters AND for Scepter-Wand's artists, and heard, through them that that label was looking to lease already recorded songs from independent producers for label/and record distribution deals. Some other Travler projects' sessions were produced by Johnny Nash(Johnny Daye on Jomada), or Johnny Terry and Juggy Murry in New York, with New York's Arthur Jenkins or Detroit's James Bryant arranging(Betty Green). So you can see that many different people, who provided different services along the track of a single record's production, marketing, and distribution, end up receiving portions of the records' sales revenue. I was told, back in the '60s by an industry insider, that Johnny Terry was not present at all the Detroit recording sessions. But, he got credited as co-producer ("executive producer") along with Don Mancha, and even Don Montgomery(on a couple), because he was the project initiator, and without his connections, the record would have existed. I believe the co-producer credit for "Montgomery" on The Honey Bees' Garrison record stands for financier, Don Montgomery as "Executive producer for financing the project, rather than singer, Jack Montgomery(AKA Marvin Jones), whose stage name was named after Marvin Gaye and Don Montgomery). Mancha got co-producer credits, because he ran the sessions, and brought in Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey, or Mike Terry, or Bob Hamilton(Taurus & Leo) as asst. producers or arrangers. Johnny Terry also initiated a few projects whose sessions were run in New York, and picked up by New York Soul labels, like Juggy Murry's Sue(Crackerjack) Records. Murry had also leased a 1963 Detroit production by Fred Brown and Joe Hunter from their Mickay's Records (by Detroit's first Dramatics group). Several of these independent players in the recording/record-producing industry play multiple roles to varying degrees on different record projects, and, thus, get differing cuts of the revenue pie, from project-to project. Even inside the major record labels, the cut of the revenue differs, depended upon whether the contributor was a full-time employee, or a pay per-service contractor, based on the contract for that project, or having a contract for providing a single service, or set of services at an agreed upon regular fee for each service, or an employee with a regular salary, plus a contract for production services on each in-house record project. So, most projects have a different mix of contractors paid for services, and different groups of outside services provided by one or more contractors. It gets very complicated. Songwriters get paid individually, for writing the words and music. If a record label uses their song, they each got an upfront advance on their upcoming royalties from record sales. Which would be taken from them from the first sales, until fully paid off. I seem to remember their usual cut was 3% for previously successful writers. But, I think many record companies, who published the songs through their own in-house publishing companies, sometimes offered only 1 or 2% in their contract, because of the greater risk of getting no sales. And those writers were generally forced to accept, or not get their music on record to get public exposure. Usually the beginning writers (often teenaged group member singers) didn't have the cash to pay for the set-up of a music publishing business, and to pay the annual BMI or ASCAP member fees. Singers got fees agreed to by contract. I'm pretty sure they varied according to the current artists' popularity. Arranger and Producer fees varied, depending upon the relationship of the service provider to the record company, and the demand for the outside provider's services. Different cuts of a record's sales revenues depended upon how many people were involved. If there were more middlemen (e.g. outside services were needed that are often provided by company staffs in larger labels), the cut for the record company diminished, but the royalties of the writers and singing artists, or instrumental featured artists (as opposed to session musicians (who were usually payed flat fees per session)) were the same in either situation. And, of course financiers got a % of the revenue based on the % of project costs they financed, possibly including recording session, pressing fees, marketing, and distribution costs. I think record projects varied so much in their detailed structure, that trying to place industry norm figures to given services for any decade or 5-year period might be misleading due to so many different possible combinations of services provided by inside and outside providers. Given the fact that having to pay several professional fees to outside contractors for different services might get quite costly because those fees are reflective of those contractors' own businesses' overheads. So, we can understand how Berry Gordy's Motown's assembly-line structure, and soon after starting to roll, paying mostly flat salaries to non-artists and key musicians, really cut down production costs, to end up bringing in larger profits. But the major national record companies (RCA, Columbia, ABC/Paramount, Capitol, Warner Bros., United Artists, Mercury, etc.) with hundreds of employees in regional offices, even though containing more of the recording and record industry services in-house, might have been less efficient overall, and more costly to operate, due to too many employees with overlap in duties, and most employees having far less stake and participation in their company's success and profits.

David, (1) The response to what you request from me would be at least a 10-12 page essay or treatise on how all contributors to a record being produced, marketed, and sold, at least a bit, locally had its sales revenue divided, worthy of being a well-respected "Webisode" on SoulfulDetroit.com (such as Graham's). The reason for that is the very reason you've asked for it, which came from the "guess scenario" I brought up. It's because there were several different ways the writers, singers, musicians, artist agents, artist managers, financiers( for recording, record pressing & record distribution costs & fees), recording companies, recording technicians, record producers, go-between men (project facilitators (who brought key functional parties together)), record marketers, record distributors in different combinations, leading to a different way the record's sales revenues were divided up. All those variables then have to have the explanation of adding in the typical %s paid to arrangers, artist managers, etc. I don't have time right now to compose and write such a piece, and organise it coherently to do justice to your request (providing actual examples of the various combinations of who did what and who all got cuts of the pie), to my satisfaction that I'd be happy to have my name attached. I'll try to come up with something more condensed and basic (maybe a few pages), as soon as I get the time. A lot of thinking is involved in addition to the writing. I'm a very slow typist, too. (2) That was an excellent point I made in an earlier post on this thread. Terry had left Motown several years before, specifically because he was capable of handling ALL those functions and could get paid for them, so WHY would he just settle for playing sax on an Appreciations record, or playing sax and just arranging it? My statement was that he very likely would have wanted to produce it, as well (whether or not a so-called "executive producer" facilitated the project (e.g. got the necessary participating entities together). (3) Bobby was correct in my book. The arrangement of the music is much more important to me than even the quality of the singing, or the composition of the tune or the quality of the singer(s) performance on the recording. That is why Motown became so successful. Just think of how a weak-voiced 1940s-style MOR singer like Margaret Whiting had a NS hit; or why the weak-voiced Messengers' version of "California Soul" sounds even better than the much higher-quality vocal version by Marvin & Tammy, because The Messengers' version got the A-side (Hit treatment), while M&T's got a weaker arrangement and mix worthy of a toss-in LP cut, or why Tommy Good's "Baby I Miss You" sounds so much better than any of his other Motown cuts (because of its fantastic arrangement). I'll try to put something up here in a few days.

Chattlee Productions could get producer credits rights, just because The Appreciations were their artists, and, by agreement in the artists' contract, or deal with the studio producer, they get to be called executive producers regardless of whether they run the recording session, or farm it out to someone else. It's certainly not a guarantee that they handled all the production "on the ground". That's why we often saw credits for Berry Gordy as producer, when Smokey Robinson ran the session. I rather think the demo was made for, and left with, Dave Hamilton, as samples, because Mitchell was looking for a Detroit producer to run his upcoming Detroit Appreciations' recording sessions.

I have that record and bought it new, also Sport 111. I always assumed this one was recorded in Detroit. I hear some Detroit musicians on it. The acoustics sound a lot like Sidra/TerraShirma Studio as opposed to Golden World. I guess this record represented the Appreciations coming to Detroit and recording there. I See that Willie Mitchell was credited as producer. But, I'm not convinced The Aware record was recorded in Detroit. The bari sax on Sport 108 sounds like mike Terry's style, and could well be him. But it's too sparse, and subdued in the background, to tell for sure. But I'd still bet that Mike Terry arranged it, and played the sax on it, too. This is the reason why I originally thought that The Appreciations were a Detroit group. I also have the Gaines-Leeper penned Appreciations' record on Jubilee. I'm surprised I didn't connect it with The Sport group. And I never liked the Aware cuts, and thought they were a different "Southern" group.

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry". but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record. I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

Thanks for informing me of that. And I've read that Aware Records was located in Charlotte, NC. So why do people think this song was recorded at Golden World, in Detroit? It certainly doesn't sound like Golden World to me. And I don't hear any distinctive Detroit musicians playing on it (other than the Mike Terry emulator). Maybe it was Willie Mitchell in Charlotte, trying to sound like Terry (because The Appreciations had previously recorded in Detroit, for Sport)?

Yes, the notes and entire musical phrase are typical of a Mike Terry intro, which reminds me of a Supremes' song from late 1964 or early '65 (I can't remember which). But, to me, it sounds like IF it was Mike, he was suffering from the flu, or it was another sax player trying his best to imitate Mike. And the acoustics don't sound to me like this was recorded at Golden World. The sax doesn't sound to me like Willie Mitchell, either. Could it have been Mitchell, trying hard to use Terry's style because he was recording in a Detroit studio for a Detroit group?

That's been my experience too, David; and I've also been surprised to have fans show me scenes in stories I wrote and drew 45-50 years ago that I had forgotten about, until shown them. If you've worked on hundreds of productions half a century to 40 years ago, it's difficult to remember EVERY one, at the drop of a hat, without being in context. But, the bari sax solo on The Appreciations' cut doesn't sound "warm" enough to be Mike, it sounds "flat". Actually, I don't like anything about this recording's production, for a 60s Detroit Soul record, including the songwriting, arrangement, and the musicians' performances. They definitely don't sound like The Funk Brothers and other Motown musicians who played on most of Golden World's, Correc-Tone's, Thelma's, Solid Hitbound's, plus other better quality "off-Motown" Detroit musicians. Also, by this late in the '60s, Mike didn't just sign on to a recording project as a sax player, without being the arranger (and a lot of the time, the producer). This sounds NOTHING like a mike Terry arrangement. The melody and direction of the song is too "muddy" a mix, and not at all crisp and with good separation like his normal productions. Until shown proof to the contrary, I really think he wasn't involved in this one.

No, sadly, I haven't.

Thanks Graham for uploading this great interview. I always wondered why Ron Davis, who wrote such good songs, disappeared from the music business so quickly. Now I understand that he quit after finding out he was cheated out of his royalty money for his songs that sold well.

I can believe the sax player on this recording is someone other than Mike Terry. It sounds a bit like him, but is rougher than his usual. It just doesn't sound nearly as good as what I remember by him. If I see actual documentation stating it IS him, I'll believe it, but recognise that this wasn't his best performance by far.

That's what it had to be. And I've seen many credits listed as Henry, rather than "Hank".

Was Hank "Cosby" or "Crosby" his actual name. From the scores(maybe hundreds?) of record credits I've seen for him over the years, it was spelled much, much more as "Cosby". I always thought the "Crosby" spelling was a misprint.

I'm almost sure it did, because " Correc-Tone/SonBert's record issue numbers were (after #503 (1962)) were taken from their RCA recording numbers, which were based on a chronological numbering system. 5800 series (1965), was quite a bit later than the 3100 series (1963-64). And "Just Like You Did Me" sounds intrumentally, and in recording technology, like 1965, while "So Much In Love"/"I'm In Love" sounds a lot more like early 1964.

I have both the SonBert and Correc-Tone issues, and I've always thought they were exactly the same takes, mixes, and cuts (e.g. version). Just a slightly-different title shown on the records.

To ME, "I Know Better" is not a "ballad" but a mid-tempo cut. But it is certainly one of my most loved of their End recordings.

I was listening to R&B music regularly since 1953, and it morphed into so-called "Soul music, gradually between 1960 and 1963 or so. So, both my favourite artists and songs might not even qualify as "Soul", and CERTAINLY not so-called, "Northern Soul'. My all-time favourite groups are The Flamingos and The Five Keys. The first songs I heard that I heard by the Flamingos in 1953, that I loved, was a 5-part harmony ballad titled "Golden Teardrops" on Chance Records, led by Sollie McElroy. But their first song that really turned me on to them was "I'm Yours" on Parrot Records, in 1954, a faster 5 part harmony slightly up-tempo ballad (or really slow mid-tempo) song. They lasted into the 1970s, but I didn't like any of their post mid-'60s recordings that would be considered Northern Soul. As for The Five Keys, I love their recordings for Aladdin Records, especially from 1951-54. The first I heard was "The Glory of Love", a greasy 5-part harmony ballad from 1952, in 1953. But my favourite from them was "My Saddest Hour" a mid-tempo B-side song from 1953. My favourite groups that would be considered "Northern Soul" groups would be The Temptations. My favourite songs by them are: "My Girl", "Since I Lost My Baby", and "A Tear From A Woman's Eyes". I also liked "Grand Spanish Lady" by The Royal Ravens from Mike Hanks' "Pig Pen" in 1963. My favourite male singers are Nat "King" Cole- (favourite song: "The Christmas Song", Ray Pollard (with The Wanderers 1954-1963)-favourite songs "A Little Too Long", "Run, Run, Senorita, Sollie McElroy(with The Chance Flamingos), Nate Nelson (Chance, Parrot, Checker Flamingos and Starglows(ATCO)), Rudy West and Maryland Pierce (The Five Keys(Aladdin)), and Richard Street (Distants, Majestics, Monitors)-Favourite songs(Distants-"Come On", Majestics "Cry", Monitors "Crying In The Night". My favourite female singers are Carolyn Crawford (Motown-"I'll Come Running", "Lover Boy", Until You Came Along, When Someone's Good to you), Mary Wells (Motown, 20th Century Fox, ATCO)-favourite songs -"My Guy', "You Lost The Sweetest Boy", "Honey Boy", Gloria Lynne (Everest, Fontana)-favourites "I Wish You Love", "You Don't Have To Be A Tower of Strength", Brenda Holloway (Tamla)-favourites: "When I'm Gone", "Just Look What You've Done", Kim Weston (Tamla, Gordy Records- favourites: "Lookin' For The Right Guy", "I'm Still Loving You", "Take Me In Your Arms", Jan Bradley (Formal, Night Owl, Chess Records)- favourites: "Mama Didn't Lie", "I'm Over You", "Behind The Curtains", Dee Dee Warwick- favourites: "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me", "Suspicious Minds". But, it's very difficult for me to pick absolute favourite singers and songs I have over 1000 '60s "Soul" recordings that I rate as perfect 100s, and over 100 each of male and female singers that I like all so much that I couldn't rank any of them ahead of the others.

Maybe those were just Duke's file copies, and the project was stopped before they made a commercial-sized pressing run? I doubt that enough copies got to record shops to have any sales. And I remember that WVON and KGFJ played EVERY Bobby Bland issue during the mid 1960s. They didn't play that one. If they had, I'd have gotten one at Dolphin's of Hollywood (where I worked). We didn't get that one. So, it must not have been marketed. We'd have gotten it from our distributor. I'd have it in my collection now, if our distributor would have carried it.

I'll add my 2 cents. I never saw a store-stocker of "That's My Girl" on Verve, and in both Summers of 1968 and 1969 I made record buying trips across USA, including New York , Philadelphia, Baltimore-Washington, Boston, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Detroit, Buffalo metro areas. So, I probably would have seen it IF it had a commercial release.

Afro Blues Quintet +1. - Caribbean Jazz (Vibes & flute) versions of Soul and Gospel Walk on By Moses/Let My People Go & Wade In The Water Moses/Let My People Go & Wade In The Water Jericho (Joshua Fit The Battle Of) The In Crowd Of course these are not only not "Covers" (which need to be out at the same time as the original, - they are not even REMAKES, as they are in a totally different genre, and also don't follow the same musical patterns, plus contain a LOT of improvisation. So, they are something almost completely different. But I LOVE Jazz instrumental versions of R&B, Blues, Jazz, Gospel, Soul, and even Folk original songs.

I've been collecting Bobby Bland records since his Modern 45s in 1953. I've never seen it. Up to its release I had all the Duke 45s. I got all the rest up to about #450. I never heard of any collectors having it. Maybe a set of test runs for a pressing run were made, but I doubt that the record was commercially issued.

To me, "Some Good In Everything Bad" by The Fabulous Apollos is by FAR and away the very best cut recorded and released by Valtone. Yes, Frank brown owned Valtone. And i agree in thinking there was no connection of his Boss records with the Sport Records' boss label, despite their both being located in Detroit during a partially overlapping period. I'm not with my 45s now, but can't recall having seen a #104. I'll try to remember to check that when i return to them.

The Checkers - The White Cliffs Of Dover - Remake of Vera Lynn's UK WWII hit. I bought this in 1953 when it was out. Maybe some of your grandparents listened to the original. My grandparents were listening to music in The 1890s.

"I'll Be There" by The Uptones 1962, remake of Bobby Darin's 1960 cut: