Robbk

Coolectively, we, here at Soul-Source are a very knowledgeable group when it comes to Soul music! If SOMEONE here can't answer the question, there''s a good chance that NO ONE can!. Imagine........ I reside in The Netherlands, but never imagined a Dutch bootlegger would press up Sweet Soul records for The Surinååmse Sweet Soul Scene, onto the wrong label, but one that would be the correct label in some other countries! I'm glad I only collect US and Canadian issues, as there is too much out there to learn regarding other Worldwide releases that I couldn't possibly fit into my memory storage area.

That CAN'T be an original US pressing. That HAD to have been made in a different country, but why isn't Universal or whatever manufacturer made it in that country listed on the label border, and why isn't the country listed, as well? It has the US catalogue and pressing numbers, but I don't think it was pressed in USA before I left in 1972.

Almost all records were thicker during the '50s (especially early '50s, than they were later.

I have seen the Maycon many times and NEVER seen the Master Sound. I suspect that Master Sound was the original, and only sold in the Philadelphia Metro Area, and Maycon distributed it at least in the Northeast and South. I don't think it ever got to the West or Midwest during its release run..

Yes, Chico Leverette left The Satintones first, then James Ellis. Vernon Williams from The Royal Holidays came in as the new lead singer. Williams, Mack and James Crawford formed the nucleus of The new Pyramids, after Bateman and Sanders left The Satintones.

Bateman said in an interview some years ago, that in March 1962, Mickey Stevenson told him that Wilbur Golden, who was starting up his own new record company (Correc-Tone Records), was offering big salaries for Motown's key production people to come work for him, Stevenson told him that Eddie and Brian Holland were joining him in jumping ship. Apparently, all of Motown's production staff felt that Berry Gordy was making enough money by early 1962, to allow him to pay them livable salaries. Bateman quit Motown, and was hired by Golden. He brought his friend from The Satintones, Sonny Sanders, with him. Then, when it was too late to go back to Motown. Bateman found out that Stevenson, and both Holland Brothers had NEVER quit Motown, because Berry Gordy offered them decent salaries to stay, and, in addition, bought them, each, new Cadillacs. Apparently, Stevenson and The Hollands used Golden's offers as leverage to get decent salaries from Gordy, and Bateman had some bad luck in quitting outright before really considering his options. Or, Gordy didn't value Bateman's talents enough to offer him what he offered the others. Probably, no one will ever know now. In any case, Robert Bateman wanted to produce on his own, and would have left within the next few years, as Stevenson had the job he wanted. After finding out that Stevenson and The Hollands weren't coming to him, Golden then offered Bateman Stevenson's promised Correc-Tone A&R and chief producer job, and a big bonus to plan and oversee the building of his new recording studio. Popcorn Wylie also moved to Correc-Tone, and Bateman and Sanders brought with them the remaining Satintones, who were reformed into The Pyramids. Janie Bradford moonlighted for Correc-Tone as a songwriter (under the pen name of Nikki Todd). The Supremes moonlighted there as background singers. Bateman ran Correc-Tone's production in 1962 and 1963. But, as Golden was constantly strapped for cash, and couldn't pay him, Robert began producing for himself as an independent producer, mainly leasing his productions to other labels, working mainly out of New York, starting in late 1963. He still worked part-time in Detroit, through 1964.

He was 80 years old when he breathed his last. He was one of my favourite songwriters and producers, and a very nice man. May he rest in peace.

ARP was located in Michigan, so it is Midwest, NOT "East Coast". Motown used RCA in Eastern Pennsylvania and occasionally, a New York plant for East Coast distribution.

Aha! The famous Bob "Two Sheds" Jackson-Mays!!!!

I guess there was a special promo press run of several regular issues that had red vinyl for some particular reason. I've just never heard why they did that.

The promo was to be a black on white issue, slated for red vinyl. I never heard of special demo records with tye store stock label and red vinyl. Perhaps this was just a pressing error, that the wrong label was placed onto a red vinyl pressing?

Steve Mancha, Melvin Davis, Edward Hamilton and Clifford Binns all sound like each other at times. J.J. Barnes sounded like Marvin Gaye at times. L.C. Cook(e) sounded like his brother, Sam, much of the time, as Ike Cole did like his brother, Nat. Johnny Moore sounded like Rudy Lewis on some songs, and like Clyde McPhatter on others, as did Bobby Hendricks. Charley Thomas sounded a lot like Ben E. King on some songs. Earl Grant sounded like Nat Cole. Tonnes of Chicago Soul groups with a falsetto lead sounded like Curtis Mayfield (Carltons, Naturals, Classics, Classic Sullivans, etc.) Brook BentonArthur prysock and Billy Eckstine sometimes sounded like each other.

There are some European 45s, for which there were no US nor UK 45s issued (e.g. only LP cut or vinyl unreleased in USA), that should be highly prized on The Northern Scene. The same should hold true for Australian, New Zealander, African, Asian and Canadian issues in that same situation.

MoDo should have an ice hockey player on the label. Our Swedish and Finnish members would get my drift.

Although the voice of the male lead sounds a bit higher and smoother than J.J.'s, it has some of his mannerisms. And, as Barnes wrote the song, I can't help thinking that maybe this recording was a 1960 or 1961 recording by J.J., for Fred Brown's Kable Records, and J.J.'s Mickay's Records version of "Teenage Queen" (from late 1963 or early 1964) was a remake. I would bet against the background girls being The Primettes, without seeing some evidence. I wonder what Craig isn't telling us?

Thanks! Based on those two snippets, I can tell that the recordings were made in Detroit. And, it IS, indeed, the song "Teenage Queen", written by Joe Hunter and Fred brown. And the musicians sound like Joe Hunter's band (same as those used with j.j. Barnes. The male lead vocalist's voice sounds very familiar 9a known Detroit artist). His voice is smoother and higher than J.J.'s. The other song, "Someone"? is unknown to me. The sound is from 1962. The girls' voices could possibly be The Supremes. i definitely do NOT hear Diana Ross' voice. I don't know if i hear Mary or Flo. Can't tell if Barbara Martin is there. I guess, the songs could also be from 1961 (potentially before The primettes signed with Motown. I wonder where Craig got the information that The primettes were on that record. The girls in the background are certainly not The Del-Fi's/Vandellas. We need to find out more about these 2 recordings.

The girls singing background on The J.J. Barnes record don't sound like The Dell-Fi's or Vandellas, who usually backed him, but sound like they could possibly have been The Supremes (but I don't think they were). The singer on this demo record is "unknown", so it can't be J.J. Barnes, as Craig certainly must have heard that version before. Maybe the lead is one of the same two male singers (James Dee (Duddley) or Walt Jessup) who had those small indie New York label releases in 1962-63 (on Enrica and Pussy Cat Records), giving The Primettes label credit? I've listened to those New York productions, and they sound nothing like Detroit, and the voices sound nothing like The Supremes. I'm very curious to hear "Teenage Queen", especially to hear if it's the same track, or, at least the same song as J.J. Barnes sang. I hope that whoever buys it will want to get help authenticating it, and will post at least snippets of it on a forum I frequent (this one, or Soulful Detroit's Motown Forum), so we can hear it.

Primettes sing backgrounds on "Teenage Queen" Craig Moerer is selling this studio demo record of "Teenage Queen" for $300,(same song as Joe Hunter and Fred Brown's J.J. Barnes' cut on Mickay's Records from 1963 - so he says), listing it as The Primettes backing up an unknown singer. I don't remember seeing "Teenage Queen" as one of the songs they performed backup. Martha and The Vandellas (Del-Fi's/Del-Phi's) backed up on many of the Joe Hunter/Fred Brown productions (even as late as early 1964). So, as Joe Hunter was still leading The Funk Brothers in mid 1964, he could have brought the Supremes in to moonlight in mid 1963 (while under contract to Motown, but still before they had any hits). OR, could Robert West have used The Primettes in 1960 or 1961, before they signed with Motown, and the song never had a release until J.J. Barnes' Mickay's release in 1963? However, the second scenario isn't very likely, asJ.J. Barnes wrote that song.

If I remember correctly, we DID have a Jobete Music acetate of that song, a 7-incher, with cream-coloured label, with only the song title typed on in red, and no artist listed. But, the master tape was used to record it for our LP. I never saw a Motown Record Corp. acetate of it, nor did I ever see a vinyl recording studio demo record of it.

The same is true for me. I've never seen any Motown acetates from the 1960s that look like that. I have to assume that it was a '70s project. And, ours was in-house, so it didn't need an approval acknowledgement requiring a logo placed on the acetate. I've also never seen a Motown acetate with one side scratched out. Also, that particular disc looks way too "modern" to have been used for recording a Satintones' song near the time of its release. Furthermore, The Satintones' song had been released, so, it couldn't have been part of our "From The Vaults" project, as we hadn't chosen that for our LPs. And it couldn't have peen part of The 1982 or 1984 Motown, in-house unissued LP projects, as The Spinners' song had already been issued in 1979. So, clearly it is extremely unlikely that it was a Motown acetate.

I'll be curious to find out who made it and why. I suspect that Keith Hughes might be able to enlighten us.

I bought rare Detroit and Motown records from Cappy's Record Mart in the mid-late '60s and '70s. He always had good stocks of almost all Detroit records ever issued, so I guess he had a good relationship with his distributors. I don't know if he had any direct dealings with Motown. He and Bob Mays and Fortune Records were the places to go. I don't think his store is still operating. But maybe he still has some of his records. But, I haven't heard of him selling any over The Internet in the last 10 years.

The Intruders' song was a remake of "When We Get Married" by The Dreamlovers.

How can we hear it?

It was a Jobete Music acetate with no artist listed (none of them do), which I found in The Motown Vaults in 1976. I labeled it "The Fascinators" just as a placeholder. I never dreamed that it was Sammy Turner. We found that out later,from a recording log. Most of the unreleased acetates (both Motown and Jobete) I had while at Motown. I didn't "take any ªas other Motown workers did), and I never bought any, once they were auctioned off. So, I have none now. There was a Fascinators group in Detroit, who had releases on Your Copy Records in 1953, and Blue Lake Records in 1954. Originally, I had thought that The Fascinators on Bombay Records were derived from that group, as Detroiter Mike Hanks, was one of their main producers, and I lived in Chicago, and had never seen The Fascinators appear. But, we later found out that the Bombay group was totally from Chicago. In any case, I just used The Fascinators' name as a placeholder, as I used The Creations for "Say, Say Baby", before we knew The Serenaders recorded that.