Robbk

What's a "Mic Drop"? I've never been a "Hep Cat", in The In Crowd.

I bought 2 mint copies (One for my friend) of "Love's Gonna Do You in" in 1968, for 10 cents each, from Joker's owner. I bought $50 worth of 10 cent mint records that day.

Yes, I found all 3 of the Stephanye 45s in The Chicago Area. They got national distribution through Wingate's distribution channels. As I stated before, I've read in several places that Stephanye was not only distributed by Golden World, but was a partnership, half-owned subsidiary of Golden World. I think that the reason they had only the 3 releases was because of the early falling out between Wingate and Gene Redd. I think Maltese Records only got regional distribution in The Northeast, and probably also in Detroit/Southeastern Michigan and Toledo/Northwest Ohio.

Thanks Yank, So it appears that George Kerr met Biegel while both were at Motown in Detroit, and when Barnes and Kerr decided to leave Motown, and Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, and approached Wingate (probably with the help of Biegel (who also left Motown), Kerr needed an outlet for his talents. So, maybe he asked Biegel to find a financier to back a new record company that Kerr could run the day-to-day record producing operations. So, Biegel found a New York financier, so that the new label could have operations both in New York and Detroit (so Kerr could still spend time where his family and friends were, and still produce in Detroit as well, to take advantage of "The Motown Sound"). Biegel probably found Granoff through his connections with New York Area national distributors. My bguess is that Kerr kept his house in New Jersey, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, because he had no guarantees that he'd be with Motown a long time. As was born out when he found out that Gordy wanted him as a songwriter, but didn't want to pay him to be a producer. Clinton was in that same situation. Biegel had a similar situation with Motown, having to face a ceiling, blocking him from moving higher up. So he left to get a more powerful job and more money with Wingate, and also had a chance to not only handle the business end of a new record label, but also participate in its profits as a junior partner. The interesting thing is that he could do that benefitting from using Motown's musicians, and what he had learned from the inside, about the way of operating that brought success to Gordy's operation (so he thought). But, his tenure with Wingate wasn't very long, and Maltese Records had very little success, if any. I don't remember seeing that ANY of their releases charted, even on the R&B charts. I don't recall seeing any Maltese records on The West Coast. I don't think I saw any in Chicago record shops. I think I found most of mine in Detroit bargain bins and thrift shops. Maybe some made the Woolworth sales (even in Chicago). Yank. Do you remember seeing any Maltese records in Chicagoland?

So, was Biegel still headquartered in New York, and travelled nationally? Or did he move to Detroit? Or was he born and raised in Detroit, and working in Detroit before Barney hired him? If it was the latter case, then Biegel must have known about Clinton, Barnes, and George Kerr leaving Motown and going to Wingate, and decided there was an opportunity for him with Wingate, and either HE, or Kerr (more likely Kerr) got Granoff involved to form a new label (for Kerr to run a record label as an outlet to use his songwriting and record production skills to continue earning a living), as his former partner, Barnes had decided to team up with Clinton.

I like Les McCann's original version best. It was a big hit on KGFJ and KDIA, and they only played the very best fast and mid-tempo Jazz instrumentals. They stayed away from slow, bluesy instrumentals. Eddie Harris' version was played and charted nicely, too. I think WVON and WBEE played them in Chicago, too. I was really big on Blue Note and Atlantic Jazz at that time, as well as Afro-Latin Jazz. Luckily, very few of the Soul collectors were competition for me -especially for the 45s. Getting mint Jazz LPs for discount rates , or mint DJ LPs at thrift stores or in bargain bins was much tougher. Funny thing, I'm the only one I ever knew who generally liked the shorter marketing 45s' 3 minute versions of Jazz LP title and featured songs, than the 5 to 10 minute album versions. The compact 45 versions were much more structured and thus, to me, tighter. The much longer LP versions rambled all over the place, and often had enough time to have a slot for a long solo for each major instrument with a lot of improvisational wandering away from the general track of the song. (which many, many, if not most Jazz fans like). And I do appreciate them; but I like the tighter, structured tunes much more. After all, who wants to listen to 9 straight minutes of only drums, while waiting, hopelessly, for the music to come back?????!!!

Thanks for uploading this article, BlackpoolSoul. Now I know what all readers of Sidney Barnes' book knew, - that Maltese Records was totally owned by Bud Granoff and Irv Biegel, without ownership participation by Ed Wingate or Golden World. So, Biegel, working part time in Detroit, had his A&R man, and chief producer, George Kerr, record background tracks at Golden World Recording Studio, had them produce his masters, and ordered pressing of Maltese's commercial issues at Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute, Indiana), ostensibly through Golden World's account there. Of course, Biegel used Maltese's own funds to pay for that, and Granoff probably kept the masters when Maltese shut down. What I also didn't know before this revelation, was that George Kerr worked on his Maltese productions in Detroit, including writing some songs, and recording some vocal and some music tracks there. I had known that several (if not most of their music tracks) had been recorded in Detroit, but I thought they had been produced by Wingate's producers using Motown musicians and arrangers. I didn't know that Kerr had stayed in Detroit after leaving Motown, and migrated from Motown to Wingate's operations along with George Clinton and his crew, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd, Jr., and, it seems, Irv Biegel. I had thought Kerr had returned to New York (where he had never left, but bounced between the 2 cities), and just produced songwriting, demos, and vocal recording on their NY artists there, using Richard T. and his band, who stayed in New York, not being brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy in late 1964, after the closing down of Jobete Music, NewYork, as George Clinton, and Kerr and Barnes were. Now I know that George Kerr worked in Detroit for Maltese, as "Mr. Lucky", and although Irv Biegel acted as a business manager for Golden World/Ric-Tic, while also running Maltese, in a similar manner, using Wingate's operational channels and connections, Maltese was NOT a subsidiary of Wingate's Golden World. But, clearly, it was related enough to consider it a member of Golden World's "family of labels. However, this doesn't effect my belief that Gene Redd Jr.'s Stephanye Records was a partly-owned subsidiary of Golden World, (as I have read that in a few places) Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources for that. However, I'm sure that Redd kept the masters for their 3 releases. I'd like to know where Irv Biegel was stationed when working for Motown, and exactly what he was doing. My guess was that he was hired, originally, by Miss Ray, to manage the business end of Jobete Music, New York office, and operated solely out of New York. The article about him made it sound like he had been working for Motown in Detroit after Jobete NY was shut down. I'd be shocked to find out that that had happened. I'd have guessed he'd not have been kept on, and brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy, after the latter shut down the New York operations, like he brought George Clinton and The Parliaments, and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes. I assume that Bud Granoff hired and partnered up with Biegel to operate his new (Maltese) record company, taking advantage of the newly-available talent that had operated Motown's New York operation. And When Clinton, Kerr and Barnes decided to leave Motown in Detroit, they were either approached by Wingate, or went to see about hooking up with his rising Detroit label, which was starting to rival Motown. Upon reaching production agreements with Wingate, they decided to try to bring in their Motown New York colleague, Gene Redd, Jr., and Kerr, now alone, after Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, convinced Biegel to get his partner Granoff to make him Chief producer and A&R man of their new label, and to team up with Wingate, to continue to take advantage of the burgeoning popularity of The "Detroit Sound", using Detroit's musicians and arrangers and songwriters (most of whom had recently worked (or still were working) for Motown Records.

I was aware of this article. It adds nothing to my guess that Maltese Records was either a partially-owned subsidiary company of Golden World, or an independently-owned label, which had so many production and operational ties to Golden World that it could be defined as a member of The Golden World family of labels. Whether or not it would be found to have been partly owned by Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton, or Golden World Records, along with New York-based owners, Granoff and Biegel. I do know that much of its operations were handled by Golden World staff, and the label had a production/mastering/pressing/marketing/and distribution deal with Golden World, handled through their normal channels. probably ALL of their background music tracks were recorded by Golden World producers in Golden World Studio, and only some vocal tracks of their East Coast artists were made in New York.

So, as Roburt stated, The 4 + 1 were from Pittsburgh, and made local appearances there.

I don't remember "The Ankara" nightclub in Detroit. Was it in Pittsburgh? There was a New York group who recorded for Madison records during the late 1950s through the very early 60s. Could Dickie and The Ebb Tides hsave morphed out of them?

Gene Redd would have had to pay The Fantastic Four for their back-up work, and the musicians for the session, so, unless he made a deal with Wingate for renting the studio for that time, making them partners in the session, he'd have entered the session in the books as "His" as a rental, and paid for the studio time (or just paid the session workers) and kept Wingate from knowing about it. But the latter would have risked his relationship with Wingate, who would surely dislike being "stabbed in the back", taking a subordinate partner in, who is using his facilities for just his own profit, and not giving him the option to participate in it. My guess is that Redd wouldn't have wanted to risk his good situation with Wingate, and so told Wingate about the session, played the tapes for him, and asked him whether or not he'd want to participate in the project and the group. As it went nowhere, my guess is that Wingate decided that he had enough artists to handle, and he'd stay out of this one. Redd would simply pay for the sessions (the regular studio rental fee) and deal with that group on his own, back in New York. I'd bet that Wingate got a little peeved that Redd went ahead with the recording session, without consulting him first, and setting up a "tryout" session that HE would also attend. I'd bet that that incident, plus his sitting on the phone discussing his own private deals on long distance phone calls to The East Coast(Long Distance calls out-of-state cost LOTS of money back in those days), was a good part of the reason Ed ended their partnership, in addition to his being pissed about Redd making a play for JoAnne. The master tapes would have stayed in Redd's hands. So we'd have to do research into what happened to his personal master tapes. Did anyone contact him, or his children, back in the '80s and '90s when The NS DJs and regular US trip-making NS record dealers and scroungers were looking up the 1960s producers? Is he still with us? If not, I wonder if someone contacted his kids.

I don't understand your point, as the only photo that shows up is a scan of her early to mid '60s Gold Record. There is no photo of a Human. From the sound of her voice, which doesn't project very well (e.g. more from mouth than diaphragm, i'd guess that it isn't a "trained" voice. And I'd also guess she might have been somewhere between 15 and maybe 22 or 23 years old (also helped by the girls' groupish-sounding background chorus behind her. I doubt very much that she was a jazz singer.

Thanks, Chalky, for this comment. YES, I confused ALCO pressing plant with Alcor Records. So, Alcor Records was just a subsidiary division of Everest Records. I have a definite data overload from over 70m years of looking at, and trying to process record information.

But Alcor Steel operated a pressing plant in L.A. that made stampers for the entire Western US, and they were the 2nd largest pressing plant (after Monarch) to use the triangle icon in front of their pressing code. The were a natural to start a record label, and Alcor Records had an L.A. address, and their label design is a design used by an L.A. pressing plant during that Alcor label's existence. I doubt very much that that is a coincidence. As Alcor Records was identified on their labels as a division of Everest Records, maybe Everest was a partner (co-owners) with Alcor pressing Plant in that subsidiary of Everest Records? Maybe Everest's staff handled production, marketing and distribution for Alcor. I have a really nice Eddy Williams single on the label in addition to the Priscilla Page. Williams was a lead singer of two well-known LA R&B groups during the 1950s, The Aladdins and The Capris

Thanks for this photo, Blackpool Soul. It adds a bit to our knowledge of Detroit's music industry during the '60s. I wonder why Ady listed Alcor Records as being operated out of New York. That was probably the corporate headquarters of Alcor Steel, who ran a record pressing plant in L.A. and manufactured stampers used by a lot of other pressing plants. Alcor was one of the several minor L.A. pressing plants that used the triangle symbol before its pressing code numbers, along with major L.A. plant, Monarch. Alcor Records was a division of L.A.'s bigger label, Everest Records. I wonder if they were also owned by Alcor Steel? - or if they were just a co-owned subsidiary? I also wonder how (and WHY?) Rose G's owners got their record leased by tiny L.A. label, Alcor. I always meant to ask Popcorn Wylie about that, and the several other small Detroit labels he worked for when he was freelance producing during the early to mid '60s, but never got the opportunity. I wonder if Graham Finch interviewed him in one of those taped interviews he has been uploading, and Popcorn discussed that period with him?

This refers to Bob Hamilton's (more detailed) goals for Golden World, after JoAnne Bratton, with Ed Wingate's approval, hired him to be chief producer and A&R Man for the company. She and Ed had, of course, more general goals. She was new to the business, and needed someone who had already been in the business, to run its nuts and bolts everyday operations, while she supervised, at least until she was well-versed enough to run it herself. Of Course, the original idea for starting the company was hers, with Ed Wingate's approval and backing (and he had the final say in things). This was somewhat analogous to Mickey Stevenson's position with Motown, with Berry Gordy leaving him overseeing daily operations, but keeping watch on things from above, and having final say in all major decisions.

Did you find out about them from an advert in a record collector newsprint fanzine-type magazine? - like the US magazine, "The Record Collector"? Or did they advertise in a UK magazine or fanzine?

I never found anything good in Woolworth'sn 3 for $1.00 pack. They usually put common charted records as the 2 outside viewable records, and the 3rd was usually a fairly obscure Pop artist - nothing I could even trade. Why should I have paid 35¢ apiece for records I couldn't use, when I could pay then same price for a rare an absolutely new mint obscure Soul record at United Distributors. I was averaging maybe 17¢ a record overall, with my quantity buys at a set low price and thrift store finds at 10¢ apiece, and record stalls at flea markets, and junk and furniture stores. I used to find whole collections of old R&B inside the old record album folders (not just 78s, but also 45 folders of that same '40s style album books). Some collections went from the late '40s into the early '60s. The '60s Soul 45s in those old late '40s and early '50s album folders looked strange, but I got some great records that way. I did much better with Woolworth's loose individual 45s for 10¢, often getting over 100, sometimes even over 200 if I hit the sale right after they were put out. They were sitting upright in long bins. Having all those loose 45s in record jackets, and my buying over 100 allowed me to scarf up VJ, Chess, Motown, and other company covers, to build up a surplus, so I could always put proper covers on my records in my collection. Back in the earlier times, it allowed me to stay ahead with Specialty, Imperial, Jubilee, Modern, RPM, Flair, Crown, Duke, Peacock, King, Federal, DeLuxe, Regent, and many of the rare 50s company record jackets. I did the same thing at the "record wall" places. That took away time from perhaps hitting one more record site, but I was a perfectionist, wanting my collection to look good. I also remember those Sutton Golden Hits. I never saw anything I wanted on the outside front and back.

Those warehouses didn't have any way to get advertising to individual record collectors. If I'd been offered listed, individual obscure non-charted small label records at 10¢ each, I certainly would have bought them, just as I bought them from Woolworth's, Walgreens, and people like Ray Avery, Music Man Murray, etc. Those stores and outlets were also customers of those record warehouses. I was not able to come up with lots of cash to look up the record warehouses, and go buy from them in volume. Also, I was still in school, so had no time to hawk and sell my extras to finance original big purchases. Also, I didn't want to end up as a record seller to make a living. I was taking a heavy science major course in high school, to be able to have a career in environmental science. So had no time to make record collecting/rare record selling my life's work. By the end of the 1970s I had become disillusioned in the environmental consulting business, as government agencies and politicians were ignoring my reports. So I started attending art school to work towards becoming a cartoonist and animation artist, while becoming a co- owner in Airwave Records, and working for them, as well. I didn't scrounge for records much, at all, after 1972, when I moved part-time to The Netherlands, and was otherwise started working on vaulted recordings projects at Motown, starting in 1974. I assume that some of those warehoused records were the source of Woolworth's and Walgreen's 10¢ /$1.00 sales, and the record walls at Ray Avery's and Music Man Murray, and maybe even John Hillyard's stock.

I checked mainly the sources in bold above, plus Woolworth's and Walgreen's (discount stores) which periodically sold cut-out 45s for 10¢ each, and cut-out LPs for 50¢ each, later $1.00 each, plus United Record Distributors (I had a friend there who let me buy small boxes of 25, or five 45s of each record I wanted, at the wholesale price, which started at 35¢, and later, was 50¢ each). I didn't buy records at "Big Chain Record Stores". The few of those that existed didn't carry almost any non-crossover Soul non-big hits. Secondly, I don't remember ever going to big chain record shops, like HMV in London. Maybe there were such US stores, but I don't remember any. Maybe I just went to a few early, but saw there was nothing of interest to me, and just put them out of my mind forever, because I never found anything of interest in mainstream record shops specialising in Pop, C&W, and Classical music. I don't recall distributors' salesmen trying to push cut-out Soul 45s on Mainstream record chains, there would have been no market for them. That type of chain wouldn't want to take up valuable space in their shops with records they couldn't move with low profit margins- even IF they could move them. I'd be shocked to find out that was happening in Chicago or Detroit. Maybe that happened for a short while in New York-New Jersey, and Philadelphia Metro Areas. But, I doubt even that. Where did you get that idea?

This situation is exactly what I had guessed - that Redd recorded all 3 of his Stephanye New York & Washington DC-based artists' vocals in New York; but, we can all clearly hear in the records that Mike Terry arranged the instrumentals, and mostly Motown musicians plus a few other Detroit musicians (George McGregor, Don Davis & others)played on those sessions at Golden World Studios in Detroit. I think that George Kerr recorded most of his Maltese New York Metro -based artists' vocals in New York, other Than Rusty Day, who recorded at Terra-Firma in Detroit, while their instrumentals were recorded at Golden World.

That's something I'd like to see with others also talking about their experiences. And we've had several of that type of thread here over the years. But as for ME starting a thread like that now, it'll have to wait for a while, as I'm very busy on some projects right now, and it took me hours and hours just making the posts on this thread alone. A big factor is the typing, as i'm terrible at it, using the hunt-and-peck system, and due to my shaky hand, I hit a LOT of double keys and wrong keys, and so I end up taking a lot of time editing typos, and always missing some, I have several look-throughs, noticing more. Being a perfectionist, I end up doing a LOT of deep thinking, to make sure I've covered every pertinent aspect. So, composing an account of my record scrounging in those 2 cities, plus Los Angeles (for 7 years), would take me a long time to think deeply, remember the various big strikes, or interesting happenings, like fighting with Steve Propes (the bloke who wrote the book on how to make Thrift Shop Finds) to get records from a find when we both arrived at the same thrift shop at the same time (and he claimed the thrift shops in Long Beach (CA) were HIS territory (as he had that area of town wrapped up first (and gave the workers pies). He delivered pies for a pie bakery, and bribed thrift shop workers near his delivery route to not put out newly received records, saving them for him to see first. He was incensed that they didn't always follow those rules (despite getting day-old pies regularly! The adventures of a record scrounger! You see how detailed I am on a note just to say I'm NOT posting now! It's much easier for me to avoid spending a lot of time posting when I'm busy with other things, if I'm just answering specific questions with a relatively narrow scope, or adding to someone's post to which I can add relevant information when I get such prompts, rather than having to think deeply and compose my thoughts and my writing piece. So I hope you understand. I'll be back when I have more time, or when others post on a subject that I can add relevant information fairly quickly from having a narrow scope or specific question. Thanks for your interesting threads.

Thanks Peter, Hi Peter, Yes, I'm well, at least for my age of almost 80 years. I'm semi-retired, just working on a few stories a year for Dutch Disney, doing some language translations for novels and comic book graphic novels with no work deadlines, so no pressure and I only work on them when I feel energetic. And the work is enjoyable. I should have written a book, each, about the development of Detroit's and Chicago's R&B and Soul music recording industries years ago, while I had the energy. Now it's too late. I'll leave that to others. But it's good to do something enjoyable, and mind-challenging, to keep the grey matter from disappearing. And It keeps my savings from melting away too fast. Which is good, because I have good genes, most of my father's family living well into their 90s, and a couple into early 100s, and my mother's family living well into their 80s, with several into their 90s. I'm still very mobile and svelte, and take 2 long power walks most days. I can still run, if I need to, but it hurts my knees. But, I'm happy to still be here, and happy for every morning I wake up feeling relatively good. I hope it's similar for you. It's really nice that we still have educational threads like this periodically. Unfortunately, this sort-of-thing is petering out (no pun intended ) at Soulful Detroit.

As I understand it, based on the artists own comments in interviews, or what Motown and Detroit music industry insiders told me or commented in interview articles, or in their published books, most of the Detroit-based singing artists that worked for Motown and left, left because they were unsatisfied with the amount of their records that were issued, and with the amount of their contracted pay they were not getting (being held by Berry and parcelled out very slowly - saying it was for their benefit, and were unsatisfied with such little artistic control. And a similar story was told by songwriters not getting enough of their songs recorded by top acts, or not getting enough of those that DID get recorded, issued and marketed with a decent push, and many left because they wanted to produce records, and weren't allowed to do so. Several group members and single artists said that Motown wanted to sign them but they refused based upon what they heard from existing or former Motown artists, about the holding of money, and the company only pushing their favourite few single artists and groups in each category: female Poppish group, female rawer Soul group, male pop/Soul crossover group, male dance/novelty group, falsetto lead groups, tenor and baritone lead groups, alto or soprano groups, etc. Almost NONE of them were "fired" - or not offered a new contract when their previous one was up. Most of them refused to re-sign because they knew they had no chance to break into the favoured group or favoured single artist status, or they would never be allowed to produce. Don Davis, Don Juan Mancha, Mike Terry, J.J. Barnes, Emanuel Laskey, Wilbur Jackson, Jackey Beavers, Clyde Wilson (Steve Mancha), Richard Morris, Herman Griffin, Mary Wells, Brenda Holloway, Patrice Holloway, Marc Gordon, Ed Cobb, Norman Whitfield, Holland, Dozier, and Holland, Freddie Gorman, Popcorn Wiley, Tony Hester, Sidney Barnes, George Clinton, The Parliaments, Mickey Stevenson, Kim Weston, Jimmy Ruffin, The Spinners, Jack Ashford, Joe Hunter, Robert Staunton, Robert Walker, etc. I could go on and on. All of them left because of the reasons I mentioned above. The only employees I can recall, who were actually "fired" were Eddie Singleton, and Robert Dobyne. The only one I can recall whose contact wasn't offered a renewal, was Marv Johnson, and that was probably just because of the move to L.A. and Berry's need to concentrate on films, and so, have less artists. I guess that Martha and The Vandellas, Junior Walker and The All Stars, The Contours, The Marvelettes, Velvelettes and most of the other secondary or lesser Detroit acts were not renewed during that 1969-73 transition period. I seem to remember James Epps saying that The Fantastic Four refused to sign with Motown in the mid '60s when first scouted, and apparently when Motown bought out Golden World. Motown bought their contract when they purchased The Second Ric-Tic label in 1968, and Wingate was allowed to hang on for a couple months after that to release 5 more records (mostly by The Detroit Emeralds and The Flaming Embers. Motown gave the group some good material to record. But they never put even remotely enough marketing push behind their issues. So the group left to go to Armen Boladian's Westbound/Eastbound Records so they could help their career instead of being "sat upon" with no chance to break through. Aretha Franklin was courted by Gordy. Her father advised her against signing with Motown, and she became a mega star with Atlantic, because she was their most talented rawer style female Soul singer. She was offered the contract there before Gladys Knight came to Motown, and both before and after Gordy got rid of most of his "Bluesy" female singers like Mable John, LaBrenda Ben, Hattie Littles and Liz Lands. I doubt that he'd have dropped Aretha at that time, however. Gwen Owens, when she started out in the early 1960s said she refused to sign with Motown because she'd be lost in a sea of artists. By 1972, her manager got her an interesting project with Motown, but teaming up with Fame Studios. So she took it. But Motown didn't put any serious push behind it, so it didn't come to anything worth much for her. So she went on to other opportunities. The Dramatics also mentioned something about not wanting to sign with Motown. They got their breakthrough with Stax/Volt, and even working there with Detroit producers. I remember lots of stories like that. I can't remember all the groups and artists, but there were many. By the way... You mentioned in the initial post that Berry Gordy was not interested much in The Fantastic Four (like J.J. Barnes) because they were too much like acts Motown already had that were doing well. Barnes was too much like Marvin Gaye (and Marvin was his brother-In-Law) so that situation was a bit touchy. But which Motown act were The Fantastic Four almost a clone??? I think they were very unique. I don't think they were too much like The Four Tops or Temptations or The Spinners. The Contours were just about disbanded by then. I think Gordy could have made room for them on The Motown Pantheon.

Good observation, Roburt. Detroit was not the place to be between 1966 and 1968. I'm sure that played a part in Edwin's long stays in Europe. Lucky for him that the Motown-Detroit Soul craze was heating up right during that period, and he was in high Demand, especially in The British Isles and Western Europe.