Robbk

Not on "Lucky To Be Loved By You" - unreleased Thelma cut. I always thought he was Black and saw pictures that said the person was him, and it was an Afro-American. He didn't sound "White" to me, on D-Town and Wheelsville USA, or Dearborn, at least, from what I remember.

No, not Bateman's publisher when he worked for Motown, but, Bateman's personal publishing company for his whole career AFTER leaving Motown. "Brianbert" was the production team name for Brian Holland and Robert Bateman (also their team name even after Freddie Gorman was added). In early 1962, businessman and Numbers Runner, Wilbur Golden, planned to start up a record company and recording studio. He recruited several Motown production people, including Brian and Eddie Holland. They told Robert Bateman to quit Motown, and come along with them to Golden's new Correc-Tone Records. Bateman quit Motown, and signed with Golden. But then, he found out that The Holland Brothers had been enticed by Berry to stay with Motown, by buying each a new Cadillac, and giving them a high raise in salary. Bateman, not knowing that Brian wasn't coming, had already set up Brianbert Music for them, as a pair. He just ended up changing the ownership only to himself, deciding that it would be a bit of an insult to Brian, for having "stabbed him in the back". The bad feeling lasted only a short time. But Bateman keptr that publisher for the rest of his life. Popcorn Wylie also came to Correc-Tone. The Supremes moonlighted there, singing backgrounds. William Weatherspoon was a writer there, as was Janie Bradford (under the pen name of "Nikki Todd". There have been rumours that James Velvet was Bateman's ex-fellow Satintone (lead singer), James Ellis.

Yes, that's the one. As to the timing, it's hard to tell. In the late 60s, I heard that Doc Records was owned by a doctor or dentist who lived in L.A. but used a Philadelphia Area address for the label. Now we know why. Helen R. Blumberg ran her non-profit Corporation there, which was dedicated to providing dental care to disadvantaged children. Maybe she provided some funding for the L.A. dentist's record company, based on his promise to produce some records promoting dental care. The dentist hired L.A. producer/songwriter, Al Capps, who produced both Pop and Soul music, as his producer/A&R man. Capps was currently working for Jobete Music's L.A. office in 1964, when Doc started,, - thus, the connection to Doc's getting to lease the Paris and Sandy Wynns records from Hal Davis and Marc Gordon. The latter pair's Finesse Productions had the rights to release those cuts on any personal label or lease them to someone else, because Motown didn't schedule them for release within 6 months of Jobete's buying their rights and publishing the songs. The fact that the dentist's hiree, Al Capps wrote "The Brush", leads me to believe that The surf group, The Shiny Brothers' version was first, in mid 1964, and The Smiley Brothers' version, produced by Bob Finiz, Helen Blumberg's hiree, in Philadelphia, came later, in late 1964, or early 1965. It does sound a little like early '65. I KNOW that Smiley Brothers' lead singer's voice so well. I'd bet they were a well-known Philadelphia group (not The Dreamlovers, but one of that level of stardom). I'd love to hear the Shiny Brothers' "Surf version", in The Jan & Dean style. They sound verylike one of the main L.A. Surf groups (maybe The Fantastic Baggys or The Ripchords (Bruce(Johnston & Terry (Melcher)). They weren't good enough to be Jan & Dean or The Beach Boys.

The Brush" by The Smiley Brothers, were a Black Soul group, whose lead singer's voice is VERY familiar to me. Does anyone else here know who that lead singer is? Listen to it closely, and see if you can tell.

I didn't know about this one. Al Capps was a producer and songwriter under Hal Davis at Jobete Music, L.A. (L.A.'s Motown office from 1963-1966. As I remember, Davis, and Marc Gordon had an associate in L.A., who was a dentist and financier of Davis' Finesse Music Productions (his non-Motown work). He had a company and address in Rydal, Pennsylvania (Philadelphia suburb). The label was called "Doc" because he was a dentist. All the Doc label's operations took place in L.A. You can tell by the labels that they were pressed in L.A., and all I've had in my hands were pressed at Monarch in 1964 and 1965. "The Brush" by The Shiny Brothers must be an instrumental. Is the A side a vocal? The Shiny Brothers had a release called "Smilesville USA". Here's a link to hear the Jan & Dean style advertisement for The American Dental Association on You Tube: It sounds like pure 1964 (Jan & Dean clone). So, as Doc records operated in 1964, I assume that "Smilesville USA" is the A side of Doc 101. Capps wrote and produced "The Brush". But, the publisher was H.R.B. So, this was another Motown rejection, or, more likely, was never offered to them, as it was recorded by the dentist for The American Dental Association, or just a hobby for the rich dentist, who wanted to own a record label. Apparently, the L.A. Dentist knew Helen R Blumburg, who raised funds to help needy children in Pennsylvania have good dental care. And he had his recording company record these 2 songs for her campaign. The Smiley Brothers, who first recorded "The Brush", were a Black Soul group, produced in Philadelphia by prolificx Pop producer, Bob Finiz (Jamie-Guyden. Cameo-Parkway, etc.) whose lead singer's voice is VERY familiar to me (famous Philly group?). I assume that the recording of "The Brush" on Doc is by the L.A. surf group (The Shiny Brothers), and was recorded AFTER The Smiley Brothers.

Jerry Cook's version has to be the funkiest record MOR producer, Al DeLory ever produced. I wonder if DeLory was even at the session, or if he was just an "executive producer", and Arthur Wright ran the entire session. I'm guessing so. Probably similar to Van McCoy running everything for David Kapralik. I prefer Sidney's, I like sweet singing in Soul & R&B songs and Jazz vocals, rough only in Blues and Gospel.

I bought literally thousands of 45s and hundreds of LPs and 78s I had never heard before, and still hadn't heard them at the time I handed over the money, simply based on the fact that I had liked many previous songs written by the songwriter(s), or arranged by the arranger, or published by that music publishing company, or sung by that singer(group/duo), or released by that record label, or produced by that producer. That was the entire strategy behind my subconsciously memorizing all that information from hundreds of thousands (probably actually several millions) of records flipped through during 65+ years of record collecting. The privilege of paying only 5 to 25 cents for a 45, 25 to 50 cents for a 78, or 25 cents to $1 for LPs often came with the slight disadvantage of not getting to listen to the record. But, it was well worth it, as over 93% of the time my memory for those details learned by reading the writing on records paid off in a big way. Even when i ended up with a record not to my taste, I was almost always able to sell it off or swap it to someone who collected that particular genre. Was I ever "impulsive" in buying records? Well, I often spent the last of my spending money on records. So, I guess one might consider that impulsive.

It's my understanding that the original creators can sell their songwriting rights to someone else for a one-time amount of monetary compensation. When that occurs, not only to the automatic royalty rights go to the new rights owner, but writing credits on re-issues of the recordings are changed to reflect the new rightsholder's interest. Many creators came upon hard times, needed cash desperately, and sold their songwriting rights for a handful of cash (often very little). That has explained many of the songwriting credits changes, even on later issues on the same record label. Some of those instances where we thought the record company later "discovered" the "true" writers of a given song, was actually simply a reflection of the new rights ownership configuration, after a cash transaction rights sale was made.

Good for you! And it's also good that The NS Scene listens to a much wider scope of Soul music than it did in the '70s, when it played mostly Motown-inspired stompers. They used to turn their noses up at Soul ballads, and even nice Soulful midtempos. Now, they even play '50s R&B. Who, back in the early 1970s would have guessed that would ever come to pass?

They have a large Zulu neighbourhood in Birmingham? They want to get even with The British for atrocities during The Zulu wars??? I lived in Bremen for 5 years, and on weekends, I used to ride my bike back home to the eastern suburbs from my friends' houses in Delmenhorst and Oldenburg between 1:00 and 2:30 AM. When I'd pass through The Centre, near The Beck's Brauerei, I'd always see a bunch of heavily-tatooed Skinheads, drinking, cursing and smashing beer bottles on walls. I never stopped to "say hello". Not my kind of folk (to say the least)! Yeah, I guess "tossers" might be a good description of the "unfriendly", "unrelaxed" type of Skinheads.

She looked to be of "mixed race" as far as I remember (but aren't we all?"). She sang with an accent pronunciation and voice tone which "sounds to me like a Black person" (e.g. sounds like a person who was raised in "The Black Community". There are many so-called "Blue-eyed Soul Singers" who tried to sound like a Black singer. For me, almost every single one fail. The only few I've ever heard where I couldn't tell, were Caucasians that grew up "in The Black Community" (e.g. raised in a predominantly/mostly/almost totally Afro-American neighbourhood, and were accepted there and almost all their friends were Black. Therefore, I always assumed she came from The Black Community. I never saw any professional artist/profile photos of her, but, you can see some photographs of her on her own website. It appears that she may have been a "Caucasian" based on they way people classified the so-called "races" back then, - based on her website's photos: https://littlecarolewaller.com/Through_the_years..html However, I still think she has a mixed race background, and may have been raised in The Black Community. I had thought that she was also local from Chicago. But, learned on this website that she was born in Chatanooga, Tennessee, and toured through the South before her agent got her the USA Records deal in Chicago. It was then, that she moved there. So, my memory of her having been a local was partly true. She was still singing through the 1970s and well into the 1980s. She sang with The Bob Young Band, so she may sing on some of their record releases. She was appearing at Rupert`s Club 33 in The Continental Towers on 1701 Golf Rd in the Chicago suburb of Rolling Meadows in 1986. That seemed to have been a mixed race band, mostly composed of Black musicians based on the photos. I don't remember seeing any records by her on later labels, and, I'd have bet she did have a release or two in the 1970s. But, perhaps tellingly, the only records shown on her website are the two USA 45s. So, maybe it's possible that she never had any other record releases?

Interesting! So, her so-called first release didn't get much of a release after all. I don't remember it being played on WVON, but, then, I wasn't in Chicago in early 1967. But, it certainly didn't chart, and I never saw it on any WVON play list. So, I wonder why Carole referred to it being "released" in the first place. I guess Paul Glass told her when the DJ copies were pressed and handed out, and informed her when the store stockers' press run was made, so she thought of that as her first release. USA 854 was also quite rare, and I also don't know if it got any play on WVON, as I was in L.A. in late 1966. But, I also know that didn't chart, and never saw it on a WVON play list. Too bad that USA was concentrating on The Buckinghams, as BOTH Wallers' fast sides were excellent Soul dance cuts, and could easily have charted well with decent marketing push.

I'm sure your grandfather was very organised. But he still may have decided to rush "Gotta Get a Hold of Myself" out, and to stop pressing Carole Waller's first release, because Maxx records unexpectedly re-issued that same song by Gladys Knight & The Pips because of their new popularity because of their moving to Motown. Carole's song would then get more plays in record shops when people would ask for the song by name but not mention the artist. A good record shop clerk would mention that there are 2 versions out, and perhaps play both for the customer. As Carole's was the more modern and more "danceable for that time (e.g. for the dance steps going on at that time, Waller's version would likely have picked up extra sales. I'm not saying that my theory actually DID occur. But it's a possible explanation for Carole's remembering that "Gotta Get a Hold of Myself" "came out first. And I'd vote for THAT as being just as likely as Carole having remembered incorrectly. Artists usually remember a LOT about their first record release. We'd need to hear from someone who's seen ALL pressings of BOTH USA 854 and 863, and have a pressing plant expert make that determination, after reading about all the numbers, codes and markings on those different pressings.

Stranger things have happened. But, somehow, I doubt it. Johnny was a Chicago artist, and The King Casuals sound nothing like those Toledo Casuals. And Toledo is a Detroit Area suburb. I don't remember any connection of Johnny Jones to Detroit.

The Casuals' version sounds out of tune in a lot of individual places in the song. I don't like their song at all. The O'Jays' version is so much better, they're on different planets. I could stay on the melody as written a lot better than that lead, and I'm a lousy singer. Some people call that style "raw" and "primitive" and "simple", and so, they like it a lot. To me, songwriting and melody is the biggest part of whether or not I like a song. So, I'll take the "polished" singers, who stay on key, EVERY TIME! That's why I like good singers, like Betty Everett, Gladys Knight and Garnett Mimms singing a Van McCoy song to a "raw", "primitive" untrained 16 year old, singing a self-written tune, recording in some podunk makeshift bathroom "studio", by some amateur "producer", every time. No offence to The Casuals group or their producer or their arranger, or their studio engineer intended here. It's a matter of individual taste. But, I'm being honest here, and would be just as honest evaluating our own Airwave recordings, if asked to do so.

I can tell you that I saw "Say, Say, Chicken Man" (USA 854) in decent numbers some months BEFORE I saw "Stop and Get Ahold of Myself" (USA 863). But, that doesn't mean for sure, that there wasn't an aborted release of 854, pulled back and it was released for the real sales run afterwards. Maybe 863 was hurriedly bumped up to get some sales in when Gladys Knight and The Pips' version was peaking in sales in a re-issue, that was done by Maxx to piggyback on Gladys Knight and The Pips' new notoriety and popularity from joining Motown? The only potential flaw in that scenario might be USA having slated releases that far ahead (9-10 numbers). But, maybe that WAS the case, as Glass had to plan for the next Buckingham's release, and so, might have to also line up all the rest of the tentative releases for the coming 6 month period.

I have about 35 USA records, almost all Black artists (other than Mike Tomesetti). So, I don't have enough to find out which records were released out of sequence. But, I've worked enough with Motown, and my own Airwave Records, and researched enough on many R&B and Soul indie labels to know that if a record company label has 20+ issues, there is BOUND to be at least one or two instances when a record was assigned a catalogue number, and given a tentative release date, and that some problems came up later to delay that release, and release other issues before it. So, if you're asking if THAT release could potentially have come out in an order different from the assigned catalogue numbers, then I'd answer in a resounding YES. If you ask me if that record definitely was released out of order of the assigned USA catalogue numbers, then I'd have to say "I don't know". I don't have the official release dates of USA 854, 862, 863 and 864. And, unfortunately, I couldn't tell you where to go to find out that information. I would take Carole's word for the order that she remembers them being released (at least when the real effort and marketing push occurred). Artists are not often told about aborted releases that are cut off before any significant sales action occurs. So, there could have been an early, aborted release, and later pressings that came using the same label design, stampers, and even pressing numbers as the aborted run, so records from the 2 runs can't be distinguished. We know that in the cases of aborted releases, when the real, pushed release came later, as well as aborted releases, about which the artist was never informed, and when a later, real pushed release never occurred, the artist never knew their record was even pressed up, or had DJ copies, issued and distributed, or even a few sales of store-stockers from stores. So, Carole could be remembering correctly. But there could be 2 or 3 different possible scenarios, even assuming her memory is correct.

I never got "into Northern Soul". Rather it came to me. I was already a Soul fan and R&B and Soul record collector in Canada and, later, USA. People like Tim Ashibende, Simon Soussan, Nev Wherry, Bob "Larry" Wagner, Martin Koppel, Dave Moore, Rod Shard and Dave Withers were referred to me. My Dutch parents had long liked Jazz, Jazzy Big Band, City Blues, Country Blues, and early R&B, and I used to listen to their 78s (as radio in The Midwest of Canada was all hickey C&W music). We used to visit family in Chicago, regularly and they lived in South Chicago (half Black at the time-late '40s and early '50s), and my uncles had stores on The South Side (Ghetto). I learned to love their music. I started collecting R&B, Blues and Jazz music in 1953, and added Soul whenever you define Soul music as starting. To us, it was just the music that was played on the radio and at parties at the time. We moved to South Chicago in 1959, and my father bought a store on The South Side. So, I became a "Ghetto Child". So, I was an R&B, Blues, Gospel, and Jazz fan. And when R&B transitioned to "Soul" I was right there. I moved to L.A. for University in 1965, My parents followed me there in 1966, and my father bought a grocery store in The South L.A. Ghetto. I worked there while attending university, and also did part-time work for John Dolphin's 3 "Dolphin's of Hollywood" stores, and combed The Ghetto for good Soul Records (as I had previously done in Chicago, and on weekend trips to Detroit). After that, I moved to Holland in 1972 for part year (and I've been there for 4 to 9 months per year, ever since). I worked as a consultant for Motown from 1975-1980 on a few vault release projects, and was a partner in L.A.'s Airwave Records from 1980-85. So, after being contacted by Brit NS record dealers and DJs in the mid-to-late '70s, I was sending NS records to The UK. I started visiting there once or twice each year on my way between Holland and Canada and L.A. I attended some nighters and other do's, mainly in Lancashire. I used to visit John Anderson and Johnny Manship, and even look for records in London, Manchester, Newcastle and York. I'm a member of this forum, as I'm an historian and archivist of R&B and Soul music (especially concentrating on Detroit and Chicago productions). And this site is one of the few places to discuss with knowledgeable people, Soul music, record labels, pressing plants, recording studios and record companies, songwriters, music publishers, etc. I've learned a lot here, comparing notes with other fans and collectors, and sharing knowledge. This forum has brought me a lot of "pen friends" and a lot of pleasure and entertainment in my old age.

Thanks for mentioning his Columbus days. I finally found a website that had the entire history of The 4 Pharaohs correct, stating that Bobby Taylor was one of the original members starting in high school, and was with them their first 2 years, from mid 1957-mid 1959. So, he was on their first 6 recorded songs on Esta and Ransom and the re-issue on Paradise. It's terrible how much misinformation exists on The internet, listing the four original members without Bobby, and mentioning he was from Baltimore and sang there and DC, and with groups in New York, but never mentioning that he lived in Ohio, and went to high school there, and that he sang with The 4 Pharaohs.

I still have some doubts about Ronnie and Bobby Taylor's period with The 4 Pharaohs - at the very least, doubting that they ever recorded with them. Esteemed music journalist and R&B group chronicler, Marv Goldberg, interviewed former lead singer, Morris Wade, and chronicled the group's history, without ever mentioning The Taylor Brothers. He listed Morris Wade, Ronald Wilson, George Smith, and Robert Lowery as the original members on all Esta, Ransome, Ranson and Nanc recordings, and also talked about their gigging days during 1961-63, between their last recordings for Howard Ransom(Esta/Ransom/Ranson) and Syd Nathan(Federal) in Ohio, and their visit to L.A. to record for Ransom again, as The Egyptian Kings in 1963 (for Nanc Records). He talked about George Smith leaving the group and Harold Smith, being added as Pharaoh, as well as Paul Moore and Leo Blakely singing in the group after 1963. But never mentioned the Taylors. I know that Bobby sang with a few New York R&B groups before moving west. He may have sung for some months with The 4 Pharaohs during 1962. But that's likely all. I really doubt that he recorded with them.

And, sadly, that's one of the main reasons that Berry Gordy never got Jackie to sign with Motown.

I've always liked Robert Bateman's Correc-Tone' recorded version better. Although Bateman did good jobs also with both Luther Ingram and Wilson Pickett. The former sounds more like a Motown recording than the other two. I assume that he had the Ingram version recorded in New York, probably using Richard T's band. It sounds like Bridges' version was recorded in Correc-Tone's studio, with the usual Motown session players. The vocals are all good.

I thought I remember seeing "They Say" on a Nosnibor discography. But, maybe that was this same issue, and the discographer just assumed it was a Nosnibor release? I would guess these "personal" pressings made at Rite would have been smaller runs, and therefore, would be significantly rarer (and thus, more valuable - IF they are good quality songs and singing (which I would guess is true - given that the early efforts by artists are often that person's more inspired, and so, 'better' to a lot of listeners). I usually like the early work of most artists best.

Yes, The Bobby Byrd who formed The Flames in 1949, who later became The Hollywood Flames. Interesting that James Brown's backing group, with the OTHER Bobby Byrd, was called The famous FLAMES. Enough coincidence to cause some confusion. But, it was total coincidence, as one group was in L.A. and one in Georgia, and both Bobby Byrds' names were never prominent nor in the public's view at the same time. The Hollywood Flames were gone by late 1966, and Byrd had been out of the group for a few years, before Brown allowed HIS Bobby Byrd to "come out a bit from under his own shadow".