Robbk

"Baby Boy" was written by Wingate/Golden World Records' Myto Music writers, The Hamilton Brothers, specifically for Golden World's Juanita Williams' Golden World release, but, yes, I suppose Janeen Henry's version was recorded in Detroit, given that ex-Motown arranger, Dale Warren (Raynoma Gordy's cousin) was still residing in Detroit then and arranging records there for several Detroit labels. So, I'm also guessing that like Jimmy Holland, she was one of Andre Williams' Detroit artist signings to Mercury, rather than one of his Chicago artist signings. Thanks for the Andre Williams article, Yank. I knew I had read one years ago in either Billboard or Record World (or both). I want to check also when Mercury signed their deal with Robert Bateman in their articles about him in those 2 trades. I know I read at least one, if not in both. I remember his photograph and the fluff about him being an ex-Motowner. So, I googled both "Billboard article and Record World article about Robert Bateman being hired/or contracted by Mercury Records", and came up with nothing. Having been a child of the 1940s and '50s, I'm TERRIBLE at the "new" technology, like computers, smartphones, and The Internet. I don't know how to do a proper Internet search. You seem to be an expert on that. Can you do that search for us? Then we can find out whether or not Mercury's signing of the 2 producers to their two major regional offices was likely to have been related, to jump on the new successful trends of Detroit and Chicago Soul music.

Here is my SDF post on The Chalfontes' relationship to LeBaron Taylor, Myto Music and Golden World, and Andre Williams', Dave Hamilton's, Don Juan Mancha's, and Sonny Sanders' relationship to Mercury Records 1965 & 1966 Detroit Soul production: The Chalfontes 2 Mercury records have always been a quandary for me. I guessed that Dynamic Hitbound Productions was run by Dave Hamilton, or was a partnership between Hamilton and Andre Williams. But, I have since discovered that Lebaron Taylor was their manager. There is one Chalfontes' song [[out of 4) that has Myto Music sharing the publishing, with Detroit Sound Music. Doc Kyle's Detroit Sound record label and recording studio was started in 1967, LATER than The Chalfontes' 2 Mercury releases, which I believe, were released in late 1965 and early 1966. The first Detroit Sound label, with The Sequins' record, is listed on Discogs and 45 Cat as being released 1964. [[But it sounds as if it was recorded in '65). The Sequins' Detroit Sound record lists a "Taylor" as one of its 2 producers. Logic tells me that that, particular Taylor was LeBaron. The 2 Detroit Sound-published Chalfontes' songs are credited to "Dynamic Hit Bound Productions". The credits listed include B. Sharpley [[real name of Detroit DJ, LeBaron Taylor [[Bill Sharpley) on the non-Myto side. I think Dynamic HitBound Productions is a partnership of LeBaron Taylor and one of the other credited people on the record, and that company's music publishing company seems to have been Detroit Sound Music. Note the similarity between "Dynamic HitBound Productions" and LeBaron Taylor's later partnership with producer/label owner, Don Davis, in the similarly named "Solid Hitbound Productions". Sonny Sanders, who was working for Golden World at the beginning of that time, along with Andre Williams, Dave Hamilton, and Don Mancha, was the only other name on the NON-Myto shared publishing side, other than LeBaron Taylor's original name (B.Sharpley). The side on which Myto shared the publishing with Detroit Sound has Don[[Juan) Mancha as the writer. So, apparently Mancha's Bosses, Golden World, shared the publishing with Taylor, only because Mancha wrote the song. The only other credit on the NON-Myto side was to Sonny Sanders. So, maybe Dynamic Hitbound [[was so similar to Solid Hitbound because Taylor owned it alone, or Taylor was in partnership with Sanders). It's even more complicated than that, because Andre Williams, who produced both sides of the OTHER Chalfontes' Mercury record, had a regular production contract with Mercury records producing records by other Detroit artists [[such as Jimmy Holland and several others), as well as a few Chicago artists. On that other Chalfontes' record, Williams worked with Dave Hamilton on both sides. The music on both was published by Mercury's MRC Music. So it seems likely that Williams was the source of all three of these projects to Mercury [[the 3rd being the unreleased cut by Dave Hamilton listed as being published [[or shared publishing) by Myto on Grapevine's list of oddball Myto-published songs (most of which were released on non-Wingate labels). That Dave Hamilton Myto song was perhaps the background instrumental tracks for another Chalfontes' Mercury production or Little Ann Ric-Tic production? Does anyone here know of any connections Don Mancha had with Golden World? I remember Steve Mancha writing some Myto songs for Don Davis' Groovesville Records 1001-1003, who were published by Myto to pay Wingate for distributing Davis' label, and using Wingate's facilities while Davis was producing and writing for Wingate's artists productions. But, I can't remember ANY credits for Don Mancha on Wingates' labels' records. (I have since read Rob Moss' article on "The Story of Don Juan Mancha's Career", which, based on interviews with Mancha, mentions that he worked on several projects at Golden World just after Ed Wingate bought out Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records, for whom Mancha worked. He said that he worked on several record projects, a handful of which he got no credits. Several of those were the most successful, including "Agent Double O Soul". He mentioned that he wrote both sides of The Chalfontes' record that he got his one credit on.) I also can't remember, offhand, Sonny Sanders partnering with Andre Williams on Mercury any other Mercury projects (however, I suspect there were some others). But Williams seems to have had his production deal with Mercury run out of Mercury's Chicago office, to produce Chicago and Detroit Soul artist projects simulating "The Detroit Sound" and The Chicago Sound, approximately at the same time as Mercury gave Robert Bateman his contract to run a similar production out of their New York office. Sanders could have been the connection with Myto, although he wasn't a writer of the song, only listed as its arranger. The coincidence of Mercury seemingly making these 2 production deals to a current and former Detroit producer, both of whom worked at Motown for several years, looks suspiciously like that major national label, with offices in Chicago and New York, suddenly decided in 1965, when Motown broke out big, and many other Detroit Soul labels started popping up, to tap Detroit's plentiful now proven talent, so Mercury could take advantage of "The Detroit Soul Sound". And, with Williams still operating BOTH out of Detroit AND Chicago, they could also take advantage of the burgeoning "Chicago Soul Sound", as with his contacts in the Chicago Soul Scene, Williams could also bring his discovered talented production people and singing artists into Mercury's Chicago operation. I think that Williams' deal with Mercury was one of the main factors that led to Mercury starting up their new Blue Rock record label, to specialise in Chicago and Detroit Soul artists' releases. These would be supplemented recordings of New York-based artists produced in New York, by Robert Bateman, simulating "The Detroit Sound" using Motown's former Jobete Music New York Office's "House Band", they used to "simulate" Detroit's Motown Sound, on their production of demo records to be used by Motown's Detroit singers as guides to sing songs written by Jobete New York. That band, conducted by pianist Richard Tee (Ten Ryk), used some of New York's best Soul session players, including Gordon Edwards -bassist, Eric Gale - guitarist, Cornell Dupree - guitarist, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie on Drums, Etc.) all of whom had been taught "how to play in the Motown style". Bateman used them on most of his New York productions, working out of Mercury's New York office. He also had used them in recording many (if not most) of his non-Mercury mid and late '60s New York productions. So, it seems that Lebaron Taylor went to Andre Williams to get his group a contract with a national label. I bet they recorded it at United Sound. Or, maybe Golden World, and that's where the connection to Myto Music came in. Surely their 2nd record with the Myto published song, was recorded at Golden World. Andre Williams had opened up his new sub-office in Mercury's Chicago main headquarters, and probably already still had a small office in Detroit. He needed to scrape up a Detroit unit of regular free-lance production people. LeBaron Taylor came with The Chalfontes. Williams recruited Sonny Sanders [[from Golden World), and free-lance writer/producer, free-lancer Dave Hamilton who he may have also met at Golden World, or just approached him as an unattached free-lancer, like he did with Don Juan Mancha. I seem to faintly remember that Mancha worked on another Mercury production, or 2 with Williams (maybe on a Herman Griffin record?). Many of the Detroit and Chicago productions during Williams' time at Mercury were placed on Blue Rock, which was started to be a label dedicated to showcase the burgeoning Chicago and Detroit Soul Sounds". But several were also placed on Philips(Bobby Hutton, Richard Parker), and some even made it to the parent, Mercury label, such as ex-Motowner, Herman Griffin. But some were also placed on Smash(Luther Ingram, Daylighters, Trends, Naturals, Constellations,Tears) and even Fontana(James Phelps, Diane Cunningham), and even their Jazz label, Limelight Records(Otis Leavill). By 1967, both Bateman in New York, and Williams in Chicago, were gone from Mercury. Giving more credence to the theory that Bateman and Williams came in on a package deal. Their being dumped [[or having their contracts not renewed) was no surprise, as NONE of their projects produced national, or even regional hits, and only relatively few charted at all. That was despite picking up such well-respected artists as Johnnie Mae Matthews, Sir Mack Rice, Otis Leavill, Luther Ingram, and Timothy Wilson.

Thanks for pointing that out, Ken. Now I remember that Ron Murphy mentioned Rubin to me as the owner, along with Sussman. It's difficult to remember all these things told to me between 60 and 50 years ago. I must have remembered Sussman alone because only his name was on David's list (and I remembered that much more because my photographic memory is much stronger than my listening memory.

Yes, I see what you mean about them trying to capture the feeling of "The Motown Sound". That song has a lot of changes, some of it sounds like Motown, in parts of the vocal, in the snare drum roll, the string solo, some areas of the driving beat, some areas of the tune's melody, yet other parts sound like a New York, Philadelphia, or Chicago production. To me, it's not much like Motown, as say, a Golden World/Ric-Tic, Don Davis' labels,Thelma, Correc-Tone, Robert Bateman's other productions, Popcorn Wiley's productions, Dave Hamilton's productions, Joe Hunter and Fred Brown's productions, or other "Off-Motown" Detroit productions played by current or former Motown musicians, written by current or former Motown songwriters, or tutored by former or current Motown writers, or recorded by sound engineers who had worked for Motown previously, or had been in The Snakepit, and knew what they were doing, or recorded in The Snakepit before mid 1964, and/or recorded in recording studios whose setups and goals had been influenced by Motown's success, and so, copied much better than out of town would be copycats. I can't think of almost any productions outside Detroit that really sounded a LOT like Motown's classic sound, unless one or more Detroit music production person had been involved. For example, New York's Richard Tee and his band's "Motowny sound" came about from ex-Motowner Robert Bateman (becoming a New York producer, and training him to use "The Motown style" starting in 1963, as well as Raynoma Gordy doing the same also in that year, as she needed them to play music in The Motown style, to create demo records for current Motown singers to use when recording the songs written in her new Jobete Music New York Office-production facility. Chicago had some very good Motown style copying as well, mostly because of Barrett Strong and Sonny Sanders coming to Chicago to work with VJ, Okeh, and Brunswick/Dakar, and Mike Hanks working with USA, Katron (Bob Catron, Bill Ehrman (of Cortland/Witch/Ermine) Catron's boss, and Ric Williams wanting to use The Detroit Sound and using Mike Terry and Bridges/Knight/&Eaton, and Jo Armstead wanting the same for her Chicago labels, and Andre Williams and Jerry-o working out of both cities, and Carl Davis using Barrett Strong and Sonny Sanders, and his also recording at Chess, and having crossover use of songwriters with Chess, and Chess' Billy Davis having moved from his native Detroit, bringing several of his Detroit contacts and artists with his Check-Mate Records to Chicago, including Tony Clarke, Jackey Beavers, Willie Kendrick and others, and being influenced by Carln Davis' using Motown's strings style, and Carl Davis importing Motown musicians to Chicago to play on his records (i.e. Jackie Wilson's). But, to me, only Ric Williams' Zodiac/Aquarius/Boo, etc. and Jo Armstead's Giant/Globe/Wide World, sounded much like Motown, because Mike Terry was their producer, arranger and songwriter along with Bridges, Knight & Eaton. While most of Carl Davis' productions using The Funk Brothers, or songwriting from Detroiters sounded more like mixtures of The Chicago and Detroit Sounds. To me, only a few of Barrett Strongs songs written especially for Marvin Smith (Artistics) when they were at Okeh Records, sound truly like Motown "This Heart Of Mine", "I'll Come Running", and "So Much Love In My Heart". All 3 of those songs would have been right uop The Temptations' alley. During the 1970s and '80s, so many Soulies told me that this or that US East Coast (some Cameo records), or L.A. record sounded JUST like Motown. I never thought they did. To me, they were just New York, Philadelphia or L.A. uptempo Soul with fast or heavy beats. "At The Top Of The Stairs" sounds to me like East Coast - NOTHING like Motown. There WERE L.A. records that sounded to me like Motown, but almost ALL of them were on local labels but produced by Jobete Music's L.A. office production crew (who had been trained by Motown Detroit personnel, or using their examples, to produce Motown-like music for their written songs' demos to be made to coach the Detroit Motown singers to sing them). Or, if they were produced by L.A. NON-L.A. Motown personnel, they were people who were friends and/or previous colleagues of L.A. Motown personnel, or people influenced by them. Certainly, Hal Davis, Marc Gordon, Frank Wilson, Ed Cobb, Chester and Gary Pipkin, H.B. Barnum, and Willie Hutchison were trained by Detroit Motown personnel and/or given song examples in the main current Motown styles explaining what they wanted for their Detroit artists. Even The "casual" non-salaried L.A. free-lance writers and producers who sometimes sold a few songs to Jobete, wrote songs for them and even for their own labels, that sounded more like Motown than other writers and producers around the country that also wanted to emulate "The Motown Sound", but didn't have as good a handle on what made it sound like Motown. Even Jobete songs by L.A. DJ Herman Griffith (Joker), and Charles Wright (Later of The Watts 103rd St. Band) sounded like Motown. There were many L.A. productions that sounded like the Jobete songs sung by Mary Love, Brenda and Patrice Holloway, Gloria Jones, and Sandy Wynns. Trudell Records was an example. They had no official connection with Jobete L.A., but they were friendly with the writers and the demo and background singers. I think that "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" and "Let Me Know" by Mary Love, "Run One Flight of Stairs" by Gloria Jones, and "Just A Boy's Dream" by The Phonetics are all very Motownish. Another example: To me, Tobi Lark's Topper, Palmer, and USD records all sound a little like Motown, MORE like off-Motown Detroit, with the Topper records sounding MOST like Motown. While her Tobi Legend record sounds like New York (I never liked those 2 cuts), even though I like her voice very much, and all her Detroit cuts. I didn't like her New York-produced Jazz cuts, despite liking Jazz vocals.

Which cuts on Way Out sound to you "close to Motown"? I'm surprised that Edwin Starr, Ragland's old Cleveland buddy, couldn't get him into The Snakepit.

A whole book could be written about the interplay between Detroit and Chicago's Soul Music industry during the 1960s, concerning Motown's recording their artists' records in Chicago and Motown's musicians recording in Chicago on Chicago labels' recording projects, Mike Hanks and Mike Terry recording Chicago artists contracted to Chicago labels (for Bill Ehrman's and Bob Catron's labels and Ric Williams' and Joshie Armstead's, and Bridges,Knight & Eaton's, Andre Williams', Barrett Strong's, Sonny Sanders', and Jerry-O's, Joe Murphy's, and Jimmy Holland's, and so many others bouncing between working in the two cities' music industries).

If only someone had asked this question between 2006 and 2010*, *when Soulful Detroit Forum changed its platform, and a large percentage of its thread archives were accidentally erased, and are now gone forever. When we started in early 2001 to about 2006, many of our threads were made up mostly of people who had been players in Detroit's record production and recording industry, plus heavy Detroit R&B and Soul record collectors (most of whom lived in Detroit or had regularly travelled to Detroit to scrounge for its obscure local records). The threads had 1960s Detroit producers, musicians, sound engineers, sing artists, even a few record label owners, and heavy Detroit record collectors, who were living and working in Detroit during the 1960s, or buying records there back then and talking about who did what and where. That included people that worked At Motown, Golden World, with Artie Fields, Don Davis, at Golden World Studio, in The Snakepit, at United Sound, stories about recording sessions at Pioneer, Special, Sidra, Tera-Shirma, where records were mastered and pressed, stories about how record projects came about, singers and groups were discovered, just about anything a historian and fan would want to ask. Researchers and history writers would just have had to read over those 2001 through mid 2010 SDF threads with a fine toothed comb, and write up a detailed history of The Detroit Soul Music industry during the 1960s. What a shame that no one did it. There were wonderful detailed first hand experienced stories that were often funny and very surprising, and gave the reader a great feel for what things were like back then. I was glad not only to be able to read them, but also to participate in those discussions. I have to thank my good friend Rod Shard, for turning me on to that website, soon after it started up, and David, for starting it up with Lowell, and Ralph Terrana for keeping it going these last many years.

Details of 1960s Detroit Soul Music recording studios opened starting in 1965 and after: Starting with 1965 studio foundations, ex-Motowner, now Independent producer, Dave Hamilton, moved his recording studio from his home on Philadelphia St. to a commercial property (ex-warehouse?) on Highland Ave. , partnering up with singer/songwriter Darrell Goolsby(AKA Rony Darrell). It was called T.C.B. Recording Studios. Also, with offices in that building, their new DaDa Productions produced records for their new labels, TCB Records and Topper Records (He later added Demoristic Records). They also recorded demos for outside indie producers. In addition to production for their own labels, they produced some record projects for Mercury Records, including "He Loves Me" and "He's The Right Kind of Guy" by The Chalfontes. Another 1965 opening was Lou Beatty's and Rev. James Hendrix's LaBeat Recording Co., on 14th St., which included the offices of Hendrix's Carrie Records, and Beatty's LaBeat/Mary Jane/Cool School Records. They recorded mostly for their own labels, plus a few recordings Beatty later leased to outside labels, and made demos for some outside clients. Their main artists included Edward Hamilton and The Arabians and The Masqueraders. However, I don't know of any outside customer's recoding session that led to even a locally charted record. Another '65 founding was Pioneer Recording Studio, owned and operated by Gary Rubin and Alan Sussman, who also operated Pioneer Records, whose best-selling records were by The Modernistics, and The Gambrells(whose "Jive Talk" is well known by Soulies). They operated from a commercial property on Tracy St. in 1965, and moved to a larger building on James Couzens in 1966. Most of their customers were outside clients, made up of tiny local record labels, aspiring singers and musicians wanting professionally-made demo tapes, and some advertising clients. Sometimes they got the odd order from larger labels whose favourite studio was booked up, and they wanted to get a recording made right away. There were several local hits on small Detroit labels that were recorded at Pioneer, but I cant remember which, at the moment. Artie Fields Productions was operating by 1965, but I'm not sure if he opened his recording studio to the public in '65 or '66. He operated Top Dog Records, which issued 45s by Joe Towns, Kris Peterson, and The Camel Drivers. His facilities, label, and rights were bought out by Motown in 1967. Joe Towns' "Together We Can Make Sweet Music" was recorded by The Spinners and its publishing transferred to Jobete Music. Fields, himself a Jazz musician, produced Jazz, Funk, and Pop Music, as well, most released on LPs. He did rent his studio out ton outside clients, and also recorded their artists for them. I can't recall any outside Soul 45s recorded there, at the moment. But, I remember that there were a few I've learned about in the past. Another of the more prominent Detroit recording studios founded in 1966 was Sidra, owned by Joe Casey and Raymond Jackson, with Rock-A-Billy singer and record producer, Johnny Powers(Nee John Pavlik (one-time SDF member back in our early days)) rumoured to have also been involved from its start. But I think his involvement only started in 1967, when he shut down his own Sound, Inc. Studio, and merged his operation with Sidra's. It was located in a warehouse-type building on Wyoming, and housed in addition to parent label Sidra Records, subsidiaries: Sound, W.I.G., Drew, and Teen Town Records. They recorded Barbara Mercer, Timmy Willis, Gwen Owens, The Precisions, Gino Washington, The Embraceables, and Ronnie & Robyn, among others, plus lots of Garage Bands, and Pop Music. As stated above Mike Terry, George McGregor, Mike Valvano/Coleman & Bassoline, The Pied Piper crew, and even Bridges/Knight/ & Eaton recorded quite a bit at Sidra. So did Mutt Records, whose owner, Nate Doré, had a tie in with Sidra. In fact, HE was the one who sent Bridges, Knight, & Eaton to Sidra to work on The Precisions' Drew cuts. Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey recorded a lot at Sidra, as well, in addition to recording at Tera-Shirma. Speaking of Johnny Powers, (who recorded Elvis impersonation Rock-A-Billy and C&W ballads for Motown for several years, and also recorded for Fortune, Fox, and even Sun Records), he founded Sound, Inc. Studios on Van Dyke St. also in 1966. He recorded mostly Garage Band, Rock, and Pop Music. But there were also a few '60s Soul records recorded there, including: Velgo 001 by Gwen Owens (her 2nd Velgo issue was recorded at New Mystical Recording), plus The Sharpetts' record on Sound City, plus Vivian Jones and Bernie Moore on Lark Records, all distributed by Sound, Inc. I seem to remember that there were 2 Soul 45s released on Sound Inc. Records, which must have been recorded in his studio, but I can't remember the artists. In early 1967 Powers shut down his recording studio, sand he merged his operations with Sidra's. Another 1966 foundation was Major Reynolds' Tri-Sound Recording Co., located on Hamilton Ave. Reynolds also operated Tri-Sound Records, which was located on Hamilton, in Highland Park. In addition to recording Ed Crook and The Devotions' records on his own label, he also recorded the Art Posey and Soulettes records on Scope Records. I don't think Tri-Sound lasted more than a year or two. I can't think of any other known records that were recorded there. I'd guess they recorded demos for aspiring artists, and recorded a few cuts for tiny labels, and maybe got a few "overload jobs" when the major studios were fully booked. Clearly, they didn't do well, or they'd have lasted longer. Another record company-owned studio started in 1966 was Diamond Jim Riley's Diamond Recording Company, located on Linwood St., which recorded mainly for Riley's labels, Riley's, Diamond Jim, and Big "D", as well as for outside clients. It's in-house band leader, (guitarist) Joey "Kingfish" Stribling, who came to Riley's from Thelma Records in 1966, after The Colemans were bought out by Berry Gordy, brought his band along to record for Riley's artists, as well as for smaller label's projects. He also was one of Riley's most used producers. They moved to a larger building on Dexter in 1967. I can't think of any specific smaller Detroit labels that recorded at Diamond, but I'm sure there were several - certainly those that were distributed locally by Riley's, when their records couldn't get picked up by a regional distributor. The last Detroit recording studio I know that was founded in 1966 was Viney Recording Studio, also on Dexter, owned and operated by singer, Forest Hairston. He operated Viney Records, whose only release that I know of was "We Go To Pieces", by himself. I assume that it was a very small operation, and he mainly recorded demos for aspiring artists. I can't remember any other small labels that used his studio. Danny Dallas opened his Sound Patterns DXM Recording Studio in 1967, on Chicago Ave. He also operated his own record label, Sound Patterns. He also had his own record out on Ernie Stratton';s Top Ten Records. He had worked as a sound engineer at United Sound and Special Recording, before that. I don't think his studio lasted more than a couple years, according to a few threads on Soulful Detroit Forum from the very early 2000s. He was really well liked by musicians Bob Babbitt, Dennis Coffey, George Katsakis, Bobby Eli, etc. Most of the records he recorded at Sound Patterns that I know about were Rock, and Garage Band music. I can't think of any Soul records recorded at Sound Patterns. I'm sure he worked on some at Special and United Sound. 1967 was also the year Guido Marasco opened GM Recording Studio, on East Nine Mile Road, whose name later changed to Bump Shop Recording, I think in 1970, named after the auto body shop, next door. His brother Johnny was chief sound engineer and ran the studio. They also operated The GM and Bump Shop record labels. They recorded Rock, Garage Band, Funk, and a few Soul records for their own record labels, as well as recordings for outside clients. The Soul records I know of that were recorded there were: 2 Dee Edwards records (1 on GM, and 1 on Bump Shop), both produced by Floyd Jones, 3 records by The Final Decisions (2 on Bump Shop, produced by Mike Terry, and one on Hi-C, produced by Jay Davis and arranged by Rudy Robinson), plus an Albert Jones record on Bump Shop, produced by Darrell Bell. I did hear that they recorded for outside clients. But I can't remember which Soul records were recorded there, or which other labels or producers used their services. I'd guess that Mike Terry recorded several more sessions there than the couple I described. Doc Kyle opened up Detroit Sound Recording Co. in 1966 or 1967 (not sure), on Grand River Ave., to serve his new Detroit Sound record label, as well as serve outside clients. Apparently, Chip Steiner ran the record label, as Kyle had a doctor's practice to operate (pardon the pun). (unless Steiner's Detroit Sound Record Co. was the OTHER Detroit-based Detroit Sound Records which released The Sequins' record in 1964. But I didn't think the 2 companies operated at the same time. In any case, I'm only referring to Kyles recording studio. The other label didn't own one. I have read and heard that Detroit Sound DID record for outside clients, but can't remember any specific records, outside labels or Soul artists that used their studio. They recorded Robert Walker and The Night Riders, The Detroit Vibrations, and The Little Sisters for their own label. This last studio, Dotty's Recording Co., was operating in 1967, but I'm not sure when it opened. owned and operated by Clifford Marshall, who operated Dotty's Records and Whip Records, and co-owned Northern Del-La Records together with Johnnie Mae Matthews. Those labels recorded Little Roger Hatcher, Johnny Hampton, Lee Jennings, Gail Nevels, Babbette & Mel, and Carol Anderson, as well as Telma Laverne (Thelma Hopkins), and Calvin Williams. (The latter 2 on Northern Del-La may have been recorded before the recording studio opened). I don't know if they recorded for outside clients, but most of the studios did. I don't know of any outside producers, other than Johnnie Mae Matthews, and the other producers from her other labels that would have recorded at Dotty's.

Thanks David, for clearing up the one or two Dearborn studios question. And yes, I learned about quite a few Detroit Studios I hadn't known about from reading your list and researching them further. That was a very valuable bunch of work to help save the knowledge of what happened in Detroit's music industry during the 1960s.

Thanks, David. Were BOTH of those studios in Dearborn, or was one in Detroit? Of course Echoic was owned by Leigh. It was located in his garage. It was a 1-man operation. So, I guess he did all his selling/marketing on his own. There were a LOT of Detroit residents operating taping services out of their garages or basements back in the 1950s and early '60s. It was only starting in mid 1964, after Motown started hitting it big, that so many recording studios started popping up in commercial buildings, with higher-level recording equipment. Between 1964 and 1967 there were more than 40 or so, I can think of even offhand! I'm writing details about those I know something about at this very moment (Part 2 - those founded after the start of 1965).

Details on Detroit Soul Music recording studios which opened before 1965 Part 1: As I stated above, after Motown, who rented out studio time up until mid 1964, United Sound Systems On 2nd St., run by Jimmy Syracuse, was the most active. It had run from 1933 to 1971, when it was taken over by Don Davis. It was, by far, the most active in Detroit for many years, until Motown started staying open 24 hours a day. Under Davis' administration, it continued to be quite active during the early 1970s. Golden World was next, and rented out LOTS of studio time to scores, if not hundreds of smaller indie Detroit labels, and often distributed the records they had recorded for them, using their own distribution channels (Love Records, MAH's(Magictones, Emanuel Laskey), A-Go-Go(Larry Wright(Popcorn Wylie Prod), Standout(Debutantes), a few Herman Griffin productions, even a few Armen Boladian funded productions. Through 1964, there were relatively few commercial recording studios, outside of mostly tiny, garage or basement operated studios in independent producers' homes (like D, Bristoe Bryant's basement studio (B-B, and Albert Leigh's Garage, Echoic Studio (garage in a house on Cameron(forgot owner's name-a small-time late '50s to early '60s producer -probably also a DJ. They recorded "I Love You" by The Volumes for Tony (Willie) Ewing's Chex label in 1962); and Popcorn Wylie's garage - He recorded for a few groups and artists - mostly demos to shop for a record deal. Many of Detroit's 1960s studios popped up between 1965 and 1967, AFTER Motown's smashing success and breakthrough into Pop Music. Before that, if you wanted to record R&B Music and early Soul music during the late '50s and early 1960s, there was United Sound; Fortune Records (yes, they recorded for outside producers-despite their terrible acoustics); JVB Recording (Joe Von Battle (JVB/Von Records); Northwest Recording, Special Recordings, from 1960-64 on Duffield St. and moved to Grand Blvd. in 1965 (owned by Fred Flowerday)-operated by a well-known engineer (forget which one he was)was one of Popcorn Wylie's favourite recording spotsfrom 1962-64. McCoy Recording (Big Mack Records-studio opened '63), Big Star Recording (Bobo Jenkins) studio-14th St.- opened 1959-record label in 1970s -few outside renters; Numbers operator, Wilbur (Wilbert)Golden's Correc-Tone Recording (opened 1962 on 12th St.-set up by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, later moved to Grand River. Correc-Tone record label bought out by Ed Wingate (Golden World) in late 1965, Recording Studio bought out by Ernest Burt(Magic City Recording Studio- and Magic City Records in late '65 Herman Griffin and several other indie producers used Correc-Tone; Continental Recording Co. Just down the street on 12th, operated 1962-63 by Cal Green(who later moved to L.A.) - a favourite studio for Popcorn Wylie's early (non Correc-Tone) indie productions' recordings(Majestics(Chex), Magnetics(AllRite) Priscilla Page(Rose). And Mike Hanks opened his Pig Pen (Bathroom Studio) in his home on McGraw, in early 1962, when he left Carmen Murphy's HOB Records to form D-Town Records(He'd already been operating his MAH's Records since 1960). In addition to Mike's labels, they also recorded for a few local indie labels. Another early '60s recording studio was Warren Quates' Jackpot Recording, on Ryan Road, opened in early 1962, to go along with his Jackpot Records. He recorded Clara Hardy, Melvin Davis, Thomas(Little Jr.) Cannaday & His Midnight Flyers, as well as Jimmie Hammond, to name a few. He also recorded demos for outside customers. Fred Brown's Mickay's Record Shop operated a record label and recording studio from 1963, with the help of his right-hand man, Joe Hunter, after already operating Kable Records since early 1961. They recorded for outside customers, including a few tiny indie record labels. The earliest new recording studios trying to jump on Motown's bandwagon in 1964 included Motown producer, Dave Hamilton's Temple Recording Co., used primarily for his own Temple Records, from his basement on Philadelphia St. He also recorded demos for outside customers. Also opened in early 1964 was Charles Stokes and Ron Holmes' Master Recording, who owned Master/Mas-Ter, Mas-Tok, Cha-Tok, and MAG Records, located on Joy Road. They also recorded for many of Detroit's out-of-home tiny Soul record labels. Their biggest sellers were by The 4 Hollidays/Holidays, Don Heart, and The Combinations. Other releases included The Tridettes, Chanels(female), Passionettes, DeWight (Spider/Spyder)Turner, Ster-Phonics/Stereophonics, The Channels(male), and Margaret Glover. Another 1964 entry was Ernie Stratton's Rainbow Recording Studio on Livernois St., who recorded for advertisers, broadcasters, and both local and national record labels. Of course, he recorded his own Ernstrat Productions', including Ernstrat Records' Patti Young's "Head and Shoulders", and DoDe Records' Judy & The Affections' "Dum, Dum, De Dip" and Royal Playboys' releases on DoDe. He also recorded joint projects with Harry Balk and Irv Michanic's EmBee Productions on The Dynamics' Big Top and Top Ten Records and Judi & Affections' Top Ten Records. He recorded some recordings for major national labels, as well. Milan Bogdan was his main sound engineer. In late 1966, Stratton sold out to Ralph Terrana and Al Sherman, who expanded the studio into the bank next door, and renamed it Tera-Shirma Studios. Tera-Shirma got a lot of work from independent producer, Mike Terry and other producers who had been using Golden World and didn't move over to Motown along with Golden World's studio and the few singers and producers whose contracts were bought by Motown, or were offered new contracts, which were accepted. In addition to Terry, Mike Valvano and his crew used Sidra and Tera-Shirma as their main recording studios. Harry Balk used Tera Shirma until he was hired by Motown. Now, independent producer, Joe Hunter, brought his Pied Piper and other Detroit indie projects to Tera Shirma. Even Ollie McLaughlin brought a lot of his projects to Tera Shirma. In 1971 Terrana and Sherman sold out to George Lemons, who changed the studio's name to Gold Soul Studios, for his Gold Soul Productions and record label. He also rented time to small indie producers, including Ron Murphy's Ron's Records, and Soul King labels.

As far as I know, the only Pac-3 studio was located in Dearborn. But that's a western suburb of Detroit, so, I guess that's why it was listed with the Detroit studios. Maybe they also had a Detroit P.O. Box, to benefit from having a Detroit Address, to get on listings of Detroit recording studios.

Even without having Groovesville Productions credit printed on the record, the link to Detroit still could have been Don Davis. But, Davis had bought United Sound in 1971, and THAT was his primary recording studio for his entire producing career, anyway. So I doubt that Davis was heavily involved in that Hot Sauce production. But, maybe Hot Sauce's producers wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound" regardless of Davis' non-availability for whatever reasons (maybe Davis and his United Sound were solidly booked up, and so they checked out other Detroit studios, or were referred to PAC 3 by Davis, or someone else). 1972 was BEFORE Davis' falling out with Stax. So, Davis COULD potentially have been involved in some way.

Velgo recorded at Sidra and Ernstrat/Terra Shirma, a lot of Don Davis' Thelma productions were recorded at United Sound. Mike Hanks' D-Town and MAH's recorded in his own Pig Pen, but he DID record a few of his latest recordings at Golden World, and even had Golden World distribute them. Most of Don Davis' Groovesville, Groove City, and his and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound/Revilot labels recorded mainly at United Sound (Including The O'Jays). Drew recorded at Sidra, Carla and a lot of Ollie McLaughlin's labels productions were recorded in Chicago, but some recorded in Detroit before 1965 were recorded at Motown's Snakepit, and later at Golden World ("Cool Jerk" being one). Impact and Inferno recorded at Golden World, Kool Kat recorded at Golden World. Mike Terry recorded most of his projects at Golden World, some at Sidra. Popcorn Wylie at several different studios, including United Sound, Golden World, Sidra and Terra Shirma. A lot of Detroit Soul productions were recorded at United Sound Systems, by both small and large labels. There were several other smaller studios around the city: Correc-Tone/Magic City, Pioneer Recording, Artie Fields Productions, Bumpshop/GM Recording, Master Recording, Mickay's Recording, Northwest Sound, Fortune Records, Diamond Recording, Detroit Sound, Continental Recording, Carrie/LaBeat Recording, Sound, Inc., Tri-Sound Recording, JVB Recording, Special Recordings, Sound Patterns, McCoy Recording Co., Jackpot Recording Co., Rainbow/Ernstrat Recording, Temple/TCB Recording, Blue Star Recording, Viney Recording Studio, Northwest Sound, Gold Soul Studios, Dotty's Recording Co., Golden Hit Productions, Tower Recording. Many of these recording studios were owned by record producers, as you know from their Northern Soul records on labels of the same name.

Must be a Lowrider.

Thanks. I understand the context now, and what Mal meant.

Clearly, you used that as a symbolic idiomatic phrase. You explain it as "making a loud noise" (sort of like "He dropped a bombshell! ) So, which post contained the "mic drop" to which you refer?

What's a "Mic Drop"? I've never been a "Hep Cat", in The In Crowd.

I bought 2 mint copies (One for my friend) of "Love's Gonna Do You in" in 1968, for 10 cents each, from Joker's owner. I bought $50 worth of 10 cent mint records that day.

Yes, I found all 3 of the Stephanye 45s in The Chicago Area. They got national distribution through Wingate's distribution channels. As I stated before, I've read in several places that Stephanye was not only distributed by Golden World, but was a partnership, half-owned subsidiary of Golden World. I think that the reason they had only the 3 releases was because of the early falling out between Wingate and Gene Redd. I think Maltese Records only got regional distribution in The Northeast, and probably also in Detroit/Southeastern Michigan and Toledo/Northwest Ohio.

Thanks Yank, So it appears that George Kerr met Biegel while both were at Motown in Detroit, and when Barnes and Kerr decided to leave Motown, and Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, and approached Wingate (probably with the help of Biegel (who also left Motown), Kerr needed an outlet for his talents. So, maybe he asked Biegel to find a financier to back a new record company that Kerr could run the day-to-day record producing operations. So, Biegel found a New York financier, so that the new label could have operations both in New York and Detroit (so Kerr could still spend time where his family and friends were, and still produce in Detroit as well, to take advantage of "The Motown Sound"). Biegel probably found Granoff through his connections with New York Area national distributors. My bguess is that Kerr kept his house in New Jersey, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, because he had no guarantees that he'd be with Motown a long time. As was born out when he found out that Gordy wanted him as a songwriter, but didn't want to pay him to be a producer. Clinton was in that same situation. Biegel had a similar situation with Motown, having to face a ceiling, blocking him from moving higher up. So he left to get a more powerful job and more money with Wingate, and also had a chance to not only handle the business end of a new record label, but also participate in its profits as a junior partner. The interesting thing is that he could do that benefitting from using Motown's musicians, and what he had learned from the inside, about the way of operating that brought success to Gordy's operation (so he thought). But, his tenure with Wingate wasn't very long, and Maltese Records had very little success, if any. I don't remember seeing that ANY of their releases charted, even on the R&B charts. I don't recall seeing any Maltese records on The West Coast. I don't think I saw any in Chicago record shops. I think I found most of mine in Detroit bargain bins and thrift shops. Maybe some made the Woolworth sales (even in Chicago). Yank. Do you remember seeing any Maltese records in Chicagoland?

So, was Biegel still headquartered in New York, and travelled nationally? Or did he move to Detroit? Or was he born and raised in Detroit, and working in Detroit before Barney hired him? If it was the latter case, then Biegel must have known about Clinton, Barnes, and George Kerr leaving Motown and going to Wingate, and decided there was an opportunity for him with Wingate, and either HE, or Kerr (more likely Kerr) got Granoff involved to form a new label (for Kerr to run a record label as an outlet to use his songwriting and record production skills to continue earning a living), as his former partner, Barnes had decided to team up with Clinton.

I like Les McCann's original version best. It was a big hit on KGFJ and KDIA, and they only played the very best fast and mid-tempo Jazz instrumentals. They stayed away from slow, bluesy instrumentals. Eddie Harris' version was played and charted nicely, too. I think WVON and WBEE played them in Chicago, too. I was really big on Blue Note and Atlantic Jazz at that time, as well as Afro-Latin Jazz. Luckily, very few of the Soul collectors were competition for me -especially for the 45s. Getting mint Jazz LPs for discount rates , or mint DJ LPs at thrift stores or in bargain bins was much tougher. Funny thing, I'm the only one I ever knew who generally liked the shorter marketing 45s' 3 minute versions of Jazz LP title and featured songs, than the 5 to 10 minute album versions. The compact 45 versions were much more structured and thus, to me, tighter. The much longer LP versions rambled all over the place, and often had enough time to have a slot for a long solo for each major instrument with a lot of improvisational wandering away from the general track of the song. (which many, many, if not most Jazz fans like). And I do appreciate them; but I like the tighter, structured tunes much more. After all, who wants to listen to 9 straight minutes of only drums, while waiting, hopelessly, for the music to come back?????!!!

Thanks for uploading this article, BlackpoolSoul. Now I know what all readers of Sidney Barnes' book knew, - that Maltese Records was totally owned by Bud Granoff and Irv Biegel, without ownership participation by Ed Wingate or Golden World. So, Biegel, working part time in Detroit, had his A&R man, and chief producer, George Kerr, record background tracks at Golden World Recording Studio, had them produce his masters, and ordered pressing of Maltese's commercial issues at Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute, Indiana), ostensibly through Golden World's account there. Of course, Biegel used Maltese's own funds to pay for that, and Granoff probably kept the masters when Maltese shut down. What I also didn't know before this revelation, was that George Kerr worked on his Maltese productions in Detroit, including writing some songs, and recording some vocal and some music tracks there. I had known that several (if not most of their music tracks) had been recorded in Detroit, but I thought they had been produced by Wingate's producers using Motown musicians and arrangers. I didn't know that Kerr had stayed in Detroit after leaving Motown, and migrated from Motown to Wingate's operations along with George Clinton and his crew, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd, Jr., and, it seems, Irv Biegel. I had thought Kerr had returned to New York (where he had never left, but bounced between the 2 cities), and just produced songwriting, demos, and vocal recording on their NY artists there, using Richard T. and his band, who stayed in New York, not being brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy in late 1964, after the closing down of Jobete Music, NewYork, as George Clinton, and Kerr and Barnes were. Now I know that George Kerr worked in Detroit for Maltese, as "Mr. Lucky", and although Irv Biegel acted as a business manager for Golden World/Ric-Tic, while also running Maltese, in a similar manner, using Wingate's operational channels and connections, Maltese was NOT a subsidiary of Wingate's Golden World. But, clearly, it was related enough to consider it a member of Golden World's "family of labels. However, this doesn't effect my belief that Gene Redd Jr.'s Stephanye Records was a partly-owned subsidiary of Golden World, (as I have read that in a few places) Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources for that. However, I'm sure that Redd kept the masters for their 3 releases. I'd like to know where Irv Biegel was stationed when working for Motown, and exactly what he was doing. My guess was that he was hired, originally, by Miss Ray, to manage the business end of Jobete Music, New York office, and operated solely out of New York. The article about him made it sound like he had been working for Motown in Detroit after Jobete NY was shut down. I'd be shocked to find out that that had happened. I'd have guessed he'd not have been kept on, and brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy, after the latter shut down the New York operations, like he brought George Clinton and The Parliaments, and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes. I assume that Bud Granoff hired and partnered up with Biegel to operate his new (Maltese) record company, taking advantage of the newly-available talent that had operated Motown's New York operation. And When Clinton, Kerr and Barnes decided to leave Motown in Detroit, they were either approached by Wingate, or went to see about hooking up with his rising Detroit label, which was starting to rival Motown. Upon reaching production agreements with Wingate, they decided to try to bring in their Motown New York colleague, Gene Redd, Jr., and Kerr, now alone, after Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, convinced Biegel to get his partner Granoff to make him Chief producer and A&R man of their new label, and to team up with Wingate, to continue to take advantage of the burgeoning popularity of The "Detroit Sound", using Detroit's musicians and arrangers and songwriters (most of whom had recently worked (or still were working) for Motown Records.

I was aware of this article. It adds nothing to my guess that Maltese Records was either a partially-owned subsidiary company of Golden World, or an independently-owned label, which had so many production and operational ties to Golden World that it could be defined as a member of The Golden World family of labels. Whether or not it would be found to have been partly owned by Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton, or Golden World Records, along with New York-based owners, Granoff and Biegel. I do know that much of its operations were handled by Golden World staff, and the label had a production/mastering/pressing/marketing/and distribution deal with Golden World, handled through their normal channels. probably ALL of their background music tracks were recorded by Golden World producers in Golden World Studio, and only some vocal tracks of their East Coast artists were made in New York.