Robbk

Thanks Chalky. That just proves I don't know how to conduct a search. I typed "George Hammonds and The Star-vells - 'Baby, I'm Leaving You' " on the search bar on You-Tube, and lots of songs with that title came up, but none were George Hammonds. The writing of the song, especially the harmony of the call-and response chorus, sounds very Detroitish (1960-63 R&B sound)- like that used by Smokey Robinson in his 1960-62 songwriting for fast group songs, and in Lamont Dozier's "I Didn't Know". But the instruments sound like they are being played by L.A. players, rather than the Detroiters I'm used to hearing. I don't recognise Timothy Allen as a Detroit OR L.A. writer. But, I remember The Star-Vells recording for several small L.A. labels. So, I suspect this was NOT one of the master tapes Taylor brought with him from Detroit.

I found my white DJ of it in Pat's Record shop in South L.A. in late 1965, in a budget bin. I've seen about 15-17 copies of the white DJ in shops, and 5 store stockers (both red and pinkish/beige). I've seen themthroughout the late 1960s and early '70s in Chicago and L.A., and San Francisco Bay Area (Oakland), and, if I remember correctly, Seattle. It seemed much more common as a DJ issue. It was likely to havebbeen in some quantities in Detroit, as well, as the group and producer were from there, and probably helped market it (although I never found one there in many Saturdays of making the rounds of the record shops and thrift and junk stores.

I still can't hear it. I don't want to risk taking the free trial for Amazon Music, and then get billed for buying that service when I don't want it. I've had those situations before on free trials, in which I was not notified that the free trial was over, and the provider said I had ordered it. It was a big hassle to get it all undone. Does anyone else have a soundfile of it?

I'd like to listen to The George Hammonds and The Star-Vells (I'm almost certain they were an L.A. (rather than Detroit) group. I'm sure it will sound like an L.A., rather than Detroit, recording. But, unfortunately, it is not on You-Tube. Can you post a sound file of it, or link to one?

It appears that maybe Romeo Taylor wasn't a hands-on producer, who had been a musician, or music writer, but, perhaps, only wrote song lyrics, and was more of an executive producer, lining up the projects, and getting the people together, and making the deals. It looks like he had Thurman Hollis run his recording sessions in Detroit/Toledo, and maybe had Johnny Woodson run his sessions in L.A., and that Woodson and he may have been partners in, at least, Pam-O. Otherwise, Pam-O was Woodson's alone, but he had some working agreement with Taylor. But the similarity of the 2 label names, AND Woodson using a song from Taylor's music publishing company is too much of a coincidence for there to be no strong connection. Was Woodson's name on any of the Me-O records?

There was a Perfections group in Detroit from the later mid '60s into the '70s. Rocarmeo Music being Romeo Taylor's, and the similarity of using the -O endings for the two label names, with both labels being located in Los Angeles makes it appear that Pam-O was a sister label of Taylor's, and was likely to have been named after Romeo's wife, ladyfriend, or daughter. I always wondered about that situation. I'm also guessing that the four names credited on The Perfections' song are that group's members, and should be checked against writing credits on The Perfections' Detroit records, to see if some of them appear, so we can firm or deny that this Pam-O group is the same Detroit group.

I saw a lot of MGM promotional copies of "Move On Love", and only a handful of store stockers over the years (none of those in L.A.). I didn't buy the Mutt-Jeff "Move On love" by Charles Perry, because I hadn't heard it yet, and it was priced $1.00. I couldn't afford to by every unheard R&B/Soul label record I saw at $1.00 when I was 19, I had to be selective, and mostly wait for records to reach the thrift and junk shops, or the bargain bins in the record shops, where I got boxes full for average 5¢ apiece, or 10¢, or 10 for $1.00 at Woolworth's, or 5 or 3 for $1.00, or free choice of ANY from the bargain bins after helping carry record boxes from the delivery trucks. I was attending university, and working a part-time job that didn't pay much. I didn't sell duplicates. I only swapped them with other collectors for records I didn't have. I first bought the Magnum issue, after hearing it on KGFJ. Later, I bought the Mutt & Jeff issue. I never saw the Mutt-Jeff issue again at a low price. I wasn't so much of a completist, as to want ALL different issues of ALL L.A. records. Had it been a Detroit or Chicago Soul record, then I would have even paid collector prices to get the original. I specialise in Detroit and Chicago Soul and R&B, and was always willing to pay anything within reason to obtain originals from those labels. But, I never earned much money, and so, couldn't buy every R&B and Soul record in existence (especially those which I already had 2 different issues of the label!)

I never saw a store stocker in L.A. until the early 1970s. And THEN, it was in a thrift shop, possibly carried by a migrant. I never saw it in the wall boxes, where the record shop clerks pulled out the current 45s for sale. I don't believe the MGM issue was marketed and sold in L.A. I believe that Jefferson's deal with MGM was for the rest of USA, after he leased the L.A. area, and perhaps, all of southwestern USA to Magnum. Maybe Magnum continued distributing L.A. with an extension, when their initial lease period was up, and Jefferson was dissatisfied with what Magnum did with the record nationally, or regionally, and he thought MGM could do a better job nationally, but he thought Magnum was solid in The L.A. area, and could do better there than MGM? Magnum had the connections in southern California, and MGM didn't really have good connections with the Soul record shops and DJs in L.A., or anywhere else. But, Magnum could not get the record bought from distributors outside southern California. So, he thought that MGM would do better in those places. He had no idea how little they knew about marketing Soul records, and how little influence they had with people in the Soul Music industry. Even Capitol, Columbia, Decca, and RCA were a LOT better than MGM and Warner Brothers, despite their being much less effective than Atlantic, Chess, Motown, VJ, Modern, Liberty/Imperial, Mercury(both Pop AND R&B Major) with the Soul market.

It was already on Magnum then. I remember seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff a few months before the Magnum.

The pressing plant numbers and your theories match what I remember. I seem to remember Charles Perry's "Move On Love" first being played on KGFJ in late 1965, and first seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff records. The Mutt & Jeff versions with the stars were when the record was only played as an "Oldie", after the first run petered out. The Magnum release was between those 2, and that's also when I started seeing the MGM copies (which were always very rare in L.A. Maybe Jefferson kept the rights to distribute in the L.A. market for his own labels, and leased that to Magnum during that lease period. maybe all the MGM distribution was outside the L.A. area, and only a few trickled in from outside (brought in by travelers like me), and 2nd-hand dealers with sources outside L.A. I never saw the MGM copy for sale new, in an L.A record shop in 1966.

I see now that the "Luke" was Luke Gross, member of George Kerr's Serenaders.

I thought "A Long Way To Be Happy" was one of the B Side cuts in that very series. BUT, IF it wasn't, then I saw that song on a facsimile- lookalike Philles label, which, then, is most likely to be a bootleg. I'm certain that I saw that song on a Philles yellow and red pressing.

Sorry, I live in 5 different countries on 2 different continents. I am in Germany now. I'm not in the country where I store my Soul 45s. I'm sure someone else on this forum can post a scan of it. Otherwise, I'll post it when I return to Holland, in a few weeks.

It was never out near the time of its recording. But, it was pressed up on a look-alike/facsimile Philles label, (one of a series of many unreleased and LP cuts released as two vocal-sided Philles 45s (classic yellow 1963-65 label), during the late 1970s (or early 1980s?), along with many Crystals, Ronettes, other Darlene Love, and others.

It's a bootleg. I've seen it many times. There were others with simple black & white copy of some label, and with that rainbow-coloured vinyl. It was fairly common in its time. So, I think that it had a relatively high pressing amount for a bootleg.

And his group, The Prisonaires, had many songs released by Sam Phillips' Sun Records during the early 1950s. Also, Syng Macgowan had several Soul songs released during the mid 1960s on a small Baltimore label. They had groups backing him up.

There has been a giant Black Hispanic Puerto Rican community in The Northeast of The US, centered in New York, and, especially Spanish Harlem and The Bronx. The Wanderers came from New York. And, The New Wanderers did, too. I imagine at least one or two of The New Wanderers were later (1960s) replacements in the old Wanderers group, who backed up Ray Pollard. After Pollard left, none of the 1950s Wanderers were left. So, it was more accurate to use "New Wanderers", because they couldn't sound anything like the 1950s group, and, so, couldn't sing their old songs. Can anyone verify that?

I lived in Chicago part of the year back then. I seem to remember seeing the Chicago Music Bag record out a year or two before the Al-Tog. Al-Tog was a bigger concern, with better distribution. It seems to me there were a LOT more Al-Tog pressings around for a longer period, too. There were also a lot more different artists' releases out on Al-Tog Records, which even distributed a couple other labels. Al-Tog also had a production group and an office. I think Chicago Music Bag was just operated out of the owner/producer's home at the time. He already used the Al-Tog production team name, but, I think he had not yet rented office space. I used to know who "Al" was, - but have forgotten that. Can someone here clue us in on who Jackson, Williams, McFarland, and Smokey Hampton were? We all know who Johnny Cameron was. Interesting that they published the song through The Scott Brothers' music publishing firm.

I doubt that. If they were one of the groups mentioned, however, they'd be most likely to be The Creations who recorded for Jamie, as they were from New Jersey.

We have since determined that Motown's Creations were a Toledo group, who paid Motown to record them and press up their record. Of course, Toledo, Ohio, was part of The Detroit Metropolitan area. We knew The Zodiac group was Bridges, Knight, & Eaton (The Brothers of Soul). But, we've also determined that "Say, Say, Baby was NOT sung by The Creations, but by The Serenaders(George Kerr and Sidney Barnes' New Jersey-based group, led by Timothy Wilson.

Johnny Terry was with The Drifters, and worked a lot out of New York. But several Detroit producers teamed up with him to release their Detroit-recorded products. Empire had mostly (if not exclusively) Detroit productions, and Garrison had productions from all over USA, but had several Detroit productions. Johnny Terry also placed some Detroit productions with Juggy Murray's group of New York labels.

Yes, and VJ's Conrad music proves that. Definitely a Chicago production. I don't remember a Chicago girls group called The Tears appearing locally in 1965-67. So, maybe this was their only release, at least under that name. But their lead, and the group, as a whole, don't sound, to me, like Dolly and The Fashions.

I'm skeptical, too. I think The Tears are a Chicago group. Burgess Gardner and Wade Flemons, and VJ's Conrad Music all say it's a Chicago production. You hear about one person moving across USA and working in a new place, and you hear about whole groups moving to New York or L.A. to get into the recording industry's hubs. But, a whole group moving from big city L.A. to Chicago, and cutting just one record with Andre Williams and nothing else there, doesn't seem likely. Also, I hear a different tone from the two groups' lead singers. Every person has a unique tone, even identical twins.

Another "clown song" is "Cathy's Clown" by The Vontastics.

It could sound this way recorded any time between 1967 and 1973, or even 1974. The fact that the label font and style looks a little '70sish, and that Jimmy Delphs was on the label (had to be after he left Karen), leads me to believe it is at least m1971, and could be as new as 1973, or so. You are likely to be right.