Robbk

Chris Clark never recorded a song that appeared on Joker Records. That was Connie Clark. I believe Frank Wilson (or Hal Davis) said in an interview that Connie Clark was a different person from Chris, and was a singer also from L.A. I also seem to remember Chris Clark saying that she had never dealt with Joker Records, and that she, herself, was NOT the singer on the Connie Clark record.

Yes, that's the Royce Esters who did some songwriting and producing for Jobete Music's L.A. office before Motown moved to L.A. Maybe Michael Jackson sang an old Jobete L.A. song Esters wrote in the early to mid 1960s? Ordid Esters also write for Motown AFTER they moved to L.A.?

Are you confusing Chris Clark with Connie Clark? I don't believe Chris Clark worked with the L.A. Jobete people until Motown moved to L.A. And I don't recall her having any of her recordings released on a non-Motown L.A. label. I seem to remember that Frank Wilson told interviewers that Connie Clark was NOT Chris Clark, but another female singer from The L.A. Area.

Absolutely! Hutch was a nickname for Willie Hutch (Hutchison). Davis was Hal Davis. Frank Wilson wasn't moonlighting. He was going about his regular business as an independent songwriter, producer, arranger, and sometimes A&R man. His contract with Jobete Music, L.A. was not exclusive. It allowed him to continue to work for other music companies, record labels, and to produce his own productions. That was also true for Hal Davis, Marc Gordon, The Pipkin Cousins, Willie Hutch, Ed Cobb, and all the other personnel signed to L.A. Jobete. I don't believe they had ANY full-time music-related employees with exclusive contracts. Furthermore, all the songs they sold to Jobete Music were usable by them in their own outside productions, IF Motown didn't release a record using them after a given period subsequent to their recording (I believe it was 6 months). So, Hal Davis, Marc Gordon, Chester and Gary Pipkin, Frank Wilson, Willie Hutch, Royce Esters, Ed Cobb, Herman Griffith, Al Capps, Charles Wright, and others, could use a Jobete song on one of their own, independent productions for release on other than a Motown label. Several of the singers used in those productions were background singers they used when making the Jobete demo recordings used as a guide for the Motown contracted singers, and to prove Motown ownership of the songs.

Yes, each year, now, we will find out what is left in the vaults that hadn't yet been released. So, there should be almost nothing left but a couple of stray misplaced (and currently unknown) acetates possibly to be found from the pre-1970 period, and only 1970-88 to find any others.

WOW!!! "One Lucky Day, I Found You" by The Volumes is Fantastic!!!! As good as Harry Balk's and Duke Browners' jobs with The Lollipops. There are still Classic Motown cuts in The Vault I've never heard! Amazing that they keep appearing.

I'm sure they weren't released on singles. I doubt that Carolyn Crawford had a release on an MGM affiliate label, or on Venture. Maybe Mickey's cut was on one of his LPs. But, I'd be surprised. I think both songs were previously unreleased. In fact it says "previously unreleased" right on the labels.

I see that I haven't heard either cut. But Carolyn's being a 1971 recording was apparently NOT a Motown recording (despite Vicki Basemore being one of the writers. Maybe Martin Stevenson was Mickey's son? I seem to remember Vicki doing some songwriting for late '60s and early '70s Mickey's productions with MGM and Venture Records. I guess Mickey's cut on the flip is also from that period. Now I've confirmed that, noticing Mikim Music on the Kent label. I hope someone can post snippets of them.

Not being in The Northern Scene in Britain, and not having found a tape or acetate of Mickey singing that song during my searches through The Motown Vaults during the 1970s, and not having had mickey play it for me when his offices were adjacent to our Airwave Records' offices during the early 1980s , I haven't gotten to hear "I Stand Blue" by Mickey. I would like to listen to a digital sound clip of it, if possible. Also, I would like to know what new previously unreleased Motown recording by Carolyn Crawford was on "the 'A' Side", in case I've never heard that one. She is not only one of my favourite Motown singers, but one of my favourite singers (out of literally thousands). Can anyone post sound files (or, at least snippets)?

I doubt that the person who pressed them up was the legal owner of the master tapes, and the rights to sell the recordings.

I'd bet he was a Detroiter. I've seen his name on other Detroit labels, including De-To, and, if I remember correctly, a couple of Clarence Marshall's labels.

I guess that they are brothers, Winston and Milton Hall. The record was a Chicago label. But, I haven't heard of The Hall Brothers. It was produced by yet another Hall (father, or 3rd brother?). I also haven't heard of the label owner James Hebel. The label looks like it could have been pressed anytime between 1963 and 1967. I never saw that particular record during my 13+ years of searching records in Chicagoland during the late '50s and 60s. I did see a few other Falstaff Records, but can't remember the artists.

I always heard he was Charles Dillard, who was listed on most of Chuck Holiday's cuts as songwriter, and sometimes as the arranger.

Here's a scan of The Martineques' white DJ issue:

Well, I think we've confirmed that The Martiniques' cuts were recorded in Detroit, but their records were pressed in L.A.

Thanks Chalky. That just proves I don't know how to conduct a search. I typed "George Hammonds and The Star-vells - 'Baby, I'm Leaving You' " on the search bar on You-Tube, and lots of songs with that title came up, but none were George Hammonds. The writing of the song, especially the harmony of the call-and response chorus, sounds very Detroitish (1960-63 R&B sound)- like that used by Smokey Robinson in his 1960-62 songwriting for fast group songs, and in Lamont Dozier's "I Didn't Know". But the instruments sound like they are being played by L.A. players, rather than the Detroiters I'm used to hearing. I don't recognise Timothy Allen as a Detroit OR L.A. writer. But, I remember The Star-Vells recording for several small L.A. labels. So, I suspect this was NOT one of the master tapes Taylor brought with him from Detroit.

I found my white DJ of it in Pat's Record shop in South L.A. in late 1965, in a budget bin. I've seen about 15-17 copies of the white DJ in shops, and 5 store stockers (both red and pinkish/beige). I've seen themthroughout the late 1960s and early '70s in Chicago and L.A., and San Francisco Bay Area (Oakland), and, if I remember correctly, Seattle. It seemed much more common as a DJ issue. It was likely to havebbeen in some quantities in Detroit, as well, as the group and producer were from there, and probably helped market it (although I never found one there in many Saturdays of making the rounds of the record shops and thrift and junk stores.

I still can't hear it. I don't want to risk taking the free trial for Amazon Music, and then get billed for buying that service when I don't want it. I've had those situations before on free trials, in which I was not notified that the free trial was over, and the provider said I had ordered it. It was a big hassle to get it all undone. Does anyone else have a soundfile of it?

I'd like to listen to The George Hammonds and The Star-Vells (I'm almost certain they were an L.A. (rather than Detroit) group. I'm sure it will sound like an L.A., rather than Detroit, recording. But, unfortunately, it is not on You-Tube. Can you post a sound file of it, or link to one?

It appears that maybe Romeo Taylor wasn't a hands-on producer, who had been a musician, or music writer, but, perhaps, only wrote song lyrics, and was more of an executive producer, lining up the projects, and getting the people together, and making the deals. It looks like he had Thurman Hollis run his recording sessions in Detroit/Toledo, and maybe had Johnny Woodson run his sessions in L.A., and that Woodson and he may have been partners in, at least, Pam-O. Otherwise, Pam-O was Woodson's alone, but he had some working agreement with Taylor. But the similarity of the 2 label names, AND Woodson using a song from Taylor's music publishing company is too much of a coincidence for there to be no strong connection. Was Woodson's name on any of the Me-O records?

There was a Perfections group in Detroit from the later mid '60s into the '70s. Rocarmeo Music being Romeo Taylor's, and the similarity of using the -O endings for the two label names, with both labels being located in Los Angeles makes it appear that Pam-O was a sister label of Taylor's, and was likely to have been named after Romeo's wife, ladyfriend, or daughter. I always wondered about that situation. I'm also guessing that the four names credited on The Perfections' song are that group's members, and should be checked against writing credits on The Perfections' Detroit records, to see if some of them appear, so we can firm or deny that this Pam-O group is the same Detroit group.

I saw a lot of MGM promotional copies of "Move On Love", and only a handful of store stockers over the years (none of those in L.A.). I didn't buy the Mutt-Jeff "Move On love" by Charles Perry, because I hadn't heard it yet, and it was priced $1.00. I couldn't afford to by every unheard R&B/Soul label record I saw at $1.00 when I was 19, I had to be selective, and mostly wait for records to reach the thrift and junk shops, or the bargain bins in the record shops, where I got boxes full for average 5¢ apiece, or 10¢, or 10 for $1.00 at Woolworth's, or 5 or 3 for $1.00, or free choice of ANY from the bargain bins after helping carry record boxes from the delivery trucks. I was attending university, and working a part-time job that didn't pay much. I didn't sell duplicates. I only swapped them with other collectors for records I didn't have. I first bought the Magnum issue, after hearing it on KGFJ. Later, I bought the Mutt & Jeff issue. I never saw the Mutt-Jeff issue again at a low price. I wasn't so much of a completist, as to want ALL different issues of ALL L.A. records. Had it been a Detroit or Chicago Soul record, then I would have even paid collector prices to get the original. I specialise in Detroit and Chicago Soul and R&B, and was always willing to pay anything within reason to obtain originals from those labels. But, I never earned much money, and so, couldn't buy every R&B and Soul record in existence (especially those which I already had 2 different issues of the label!)

I never saw a store stocker in L.A. until the early 1970s. And THEN, it was in a thrift shop, possibly carried by a migrant. I never saw it in the wall boxes, where the record shop clerks pulled out the current 45s for sale. I don't believe the MGM issue was marketed and sold in L.A. I believe that Jefferson's deal with MGM was for the rest of USA, after he leased the L.A. area, and perhaps, all of southwestern USA to Magnum. Maybe Magnum continued distributing L.A. with an extension, when their initial lease period was up, and Jefferson was dissatisfied with what Magnum did with the record nationally, or regionally, and he thought MGM could do a better job nationally, but he thought Magnum was solid in The L.A. area, and could do better there than MGM? Magnum had the connections in southern California, and MGM didn't really have good connections with the Soul record shops and DJs in L.A., or anywhere else. But, Magnum could not get the record bought from distributors outside southern California. So, he thought that MGM would do better in those places. He had no idea how little they knew about marketing Soul records, and how little influence they had with people in the Soul Music industry. Even Capitol, Columbia, Decca, and RCA were a LOT better than MGM and Warner Brothers, despite their being much less effective than Atlantic, Chess, Motown, VJ, Modern, Liberty/Imperial, Mercury(both Pop AND R&B Major) with the Soul market.

It was already on Magnum then. I remember seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff a few months before the Magnum.

The pressing plant numbers and your theories match what I remember. I seem to remember Charles Perry's "Move On Love" first being played on KGFJ in late 1965, and first seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff records. The Mutt & Jeff versions with the stars were when the record was only played as an "Oldie", after the first run petered out. The Magnum release was between those 2, and that's also when I started seeing the MGM copies (which were always very rare in L.A. Maybe Jefferson kept the rights to distribute in the L.A. market for his own labels, and leased that to Magnum during that lease period. maybe all the MGM distribution was outside the L.A. area, and only a few trickled in from outside (brought in by travelers like me), and 2nd-hand dealers with sources outside L.A. I never saw the MGM copy for sale new, in an L.A record shop in 1966.