Robbk

Why doesn't someone ask Richard why he thinks they are the same person. Who told him that, or where did he read it. I remember several rumours that got around to so many people that many people believed that they must have been true. But they could have ALL originated with a couple collectors surmising (guessing) that from a falsely-interpreted clue, or a coincidence that made it seem unlikely to not be true - such as 4 or 5 clues lining up almost perfectly. Think of the case of the 2 Frank Wilsons both working for Motown at the same time with both having been working in L.A. and starting their songwriting and producing careers there. I can't count how many times we've asked Detroiters who were active participants in the music industry during the '60s about obscure artists, and they even remember working on the recording session in question, and still didn't remember, or ever even know the artist's real name or the names of individual group members, etc. It's always great when many, many years after the first time searching for the answers to similar questions, one of us actually finds irrefutable documentation of the true answer. Of course, the further in years that we move away from those times, the fewer of these late true answers will be coming forth. Many of these questions will never be answered. I've forgotten a LOT myself, that I've never written down.

Just as I remembered, Jimmy Soul Clark's singing voice has a heavy nasal quality, and he sings in a slightly higher register than Jimmy Mack, who has a deeper quality, sort of in the background. I think the latter could do well in baritone parts, whereas Jimmy Clark would have strained to get down there. I really don't think they are the same person.

My memory tells me that Jimmy "Soul" Clark's and Jimmy Mack's voices are different enough to be confident that they are not the same person. I'll listen to all those cuts again to make sure. I think any connection between them is just from collectors' guesses that became rumours.

Never seen a 45 THAT far off centre!!!

I agree. If that project was completed, and released commercially, we'd have heard about it just from the hundreds of forum-active posters on this forum and Soulful Detroit, alone, at least one of them would have brought that to our attention, not to mention a '60s Soul fan on X, or Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, or even Tick Tock, would have brought it up. It's a shame that it didn't come to fruition. The trailer looked very professional, and made it appear that it would be an outstanding film, well worth watching.

This is like the US 1950s and early '60s TV show "Name That Tune". Contestants bet on how many seconds would pass before they could name the song. "I can name that tune in 3 seconds!" Unfortunately, they only used Pop songs when I saw it during the 1950s. No obscure R&B, Blues, Gospel, or even Jazz.

2nd from left, is Lee David, clearly an African-American.

I've never seen a picture of Lee David, and there's no way to tell from his voice. I'm not a big fan of his singing because he's too "nasal" for my taste. But, in my experience, many (if not most) good singers want to sing in a variety of different styles (Pop, Soul, Gospel, Blues, Jazzy vocals), just as they might want to test their skills or limits singing in several different keys, or singing both falsetto and baritone. Gary Sherman and Jimmy Briggs worked on many Pop-oriented productions, but also blended Soul with a Poppish accent. Lee David's "Temptation's Callin'..." was certainly aimed at both the main-stream Poppish Soul and crossover market, while "Gypsy Woman seems to me to have been aimed mainly at the straight Soul market. So Lee David was a "Soul Singer". He could have gotten a great applause at The Apollo singing his version Of Gypsy Woman, whether or not he was classified as a "White Man" or a "Black Man".

Good to know the answer to this. Johnnie Mae was a big fan of The Blues. This could well have been a Blues singer friend of hers, or one referred to Johnnie Mae by a friend, hoping Johnnie Mae could use her influence to get a record deal for it with a record company, (and nothing ever happened with it).

I thought Johnnie Mae's Blue Rock recordings sounded more like Chicago than New York. This one sounds New Yorkish to me. Also, this Bluesy cut, "Mamma's Gonna Stop You". Doesn't sound, at all like Ollie McLaughlin's or his writing group's (Sharon McMahon, Maron McKenzie)'s writing (music OR lyrics). I'd be very, very surprised to find out this was one of her Blue Rock session recordings. To me, it sounds more like her Bluesy songs written by herself and Timmy Shaw.

The singer has a similar gravelly rasp to her voice as Johnnie Mae has, but her voice sounds a bit lighter and higher on the scale. Could this be her daughter, Audrey (Kaiya) deliberately putting on a gravelly/raspy voice? There is a possible family resemblance in this tone sand Johnnie Mae's.

I knew that the artist was unknown; but thought it was a legitimate Bell Sound recording done in New York. So, I was thinking about who that operated in New York, might have produced it, based on its sound (mid '60's hard edged, Bluesy Soul). I know we have nothing to go by. It was just pondering "out loud". Now I just noticed the post above that says it comes from the 1990s. Does that mean that it was played by NS DJs in the 1990s? It certainly sounds like a mid or late '60s recording. And IF that Bell Sound label on the pictured acetate above is the record we're listening to, it certainly was not made at Bell Sound during the 1990s.

I wonder if that's a Juggy Murray or Bobby Robinson production? It sounds a bit too "gritty" to have been produced by Zell Sanders. Who else in New York was recording cuts that sounded like that during the mid to late 1960s? It doesn't sound like a Detroit recording to me.

It was pressed on a small, local label at Archer Record Pressing in Detroit. They pressed mostly southeastern Michigan labels, and local national labels like Motown, when their normal pressing plants were backed up with jobs, and they wanted to get a new record out locally right away, or refresh stock in local record shops who were clamouring for it. They didn't do many (IF ANY) jobs for out-of-region-or state labels. So, that alone leads one to believe (and bet) that THIS "Fresh Records" was a Detroit Metro Area label. I have a couple end of '50s-early '60s 45s on a Fresh Records located in L.A. But they don't seem to have any relationship to each other. All the credited names on the label,.... the songwriter, A. Wilson, the producer & arranger (L. Cooper and E. Daniel), look familiar, and remind me of mid '60s Detroit tiny labels. I'm sure I have 3-4 mid '60s Detroit records with credits for those people.

I remember this was played in Chicago for a week or two, but it never got into regular rotation. I loived it from my first listen. It must be somewhat rare, As I never found it. But, I'm sure it got played on the local, Detroit stations, and had some sales there.

Great Stuff Graham, I hope you keep them coming. Great to hear things from the horse's mouth. I generally learn at the very least one thing I didn't know before, like the fact that David Ruffin almost became a Correc-Tone artist, and that Ed Wingate chose to sign Willie Kendrick over David, and that Ron Davis was Wilbur Golden's relative. That was a bit of nepotism. But Davis was a really good songwriter.

So, are you saying that the background tracks (or some portion of them) from Andre Williams' Ric Tic production of Laura Lee's "So Will I" were used on Sylvia Thomas' Bamboo 45? That could have been Chicago's Gene Chandler leasing the track from Chicago/Detroit producer Andre Williams, or the tracks were "stolen" without Williams' knowledge, just like Dave Hamilton's Topper tracks suspiciously ended up on Maurice Jackson's Maurci Records' Monique 45s, unbeknownced to him until someone played them for him. But I know that Chicago writer/producer Karl Tarlton used several Detroit background tracks on his artists' productions, such as those by Lee Charles, and Garland Green. Deke Atkins did that as well with his Duo productions (Sheryl Swope, The Profiles). He was rumoured to have taken Maxwell to Detroit to record some cuts there. But maybe he just leased some tracks from Golden World, or from Andre Williams in Chicago. I suppose it could be that the reason I didn't think Holly Maxwell's tracks sounded fully Detroitish (and "tinny", with too much bass and too little else) is because they weren't the full mix of background tracks, and were mainly bass line and only one guitar and no strings. Listening again to Holly's "Don't Say You Love Me", I recognise it as absolutely the same rhythm track as the backgrounds of some Golden World production on a record I have with a different title. But the horns are different and I hear no strings. So, I think that Deke Atkins either took Holly to Golden World to record her vocals there, and paid for them to provide the background tracks. But rather than record new tracks, they used already recorded tracks. OR, Atkins simply leased the tracks from Golden World, because they were leased for less than recording new tracks, because they wouldn't need to rent studio time or pay musicians. OR, Williams, ended up with unused alternate or unfinished mix tapes of some productions he worked on, and leased them to Atkins in Chicago. That was 1965, and maybe Atkins' first record production. It's a good bet that he didn't have enough money to pay for an elaborate production AND also pay for pressing enough records for decent distribution. So he went the bargain route, using existing instrumental tracks. Yes, I've heard that The Volcanoes and a few other Philly groups were taken to Golden World to record, to get "The Detroit Sound". People said they sounded "like Motown". I could believe that they recorded some tracks they used on their records there, but I didn't think they sounded much like Motown productions.

Holly Maxwell was from Chicago, and lived there at that time. Star was a Chicago label. "Don't Say You Love Me Until You Do" was published by Myto Music because JoAnne Jackson (Bratton), Ed Wingate's partner and future wife, wrote it. It sounded too "tinny" to me to have been recorded at Golden World. But, I do remember that she had been taken by one of her Chicago producers to Detroit, to record some of here songs. So, maybe this was one of those. It sounds too simple, too much bass, and too little of much else. I don't hear any Detroit musicians on it, like we always do on Golden World recordings. The beat and melody sound like it because a Detroit writer wrote it.

Yes! They definitely meant for it to be 1011. There were so many printer errors and transcribing errors made back in those days. Record companies were in such a hurry to get records out as quickly as possible, they often told printers and pressing plant operators to not bother them with providing a "last look" at ready-to-go printing plates, before printing. We had about 4-5 printing errors at Airwave Records, and I tried to be careful with that.

Thanks, Yank. So, it seems that Edward came back to Beatty's operation in 1968. I guess there had been no hard feelings involved in his leaving.

I think that Mary Jane 1010 was released later, in 1968, as an alternate takes re-issue. But I think all the recordings were made in 1967. I've always wondered why Edward's back-up group's name was changed to The Natural Looks. I never heard of the latter as an appearing group, nor have I ever seen a venue poster of an appearance by them. When Edward was asked about that name change he said it was his original Arabians group that recorded both versions. So, I think that The Arabians, including Edward may have already been done dealing with Beatty when he re-issued the record. But, I wonder why The Natural Looks were listed on the record. I've forgotten about whether or not The Fifes were a later group, or just a re-naming of The Arabians by Beatty when leasing out The Arabians' tapes to other labels after Hamilton and his group had moved on. I don't remember hearing or reading about Edward answering that question. Maybe someone else here knows about why those other group names appear on later issues?

Thanks! That's not the article I read that also contained a photo of Bateman, but the timing is right on the mark, and proves that Mercury had an across-the-board policy of "modernizing" their production capabilities in The Soul Music genre. And, his operation would move into their New York offices. The 2 months earlier date, of Sept. 1965, reveals that the significantly earlier signing of Andre Williams (in Feb. '65) probably had nothing to do with Bateman's hiring, other than being part of Mercury's overall plan. So, Williams and Bateman weren't a packaged team. But, interestingly enough the 2 of them had teamed up to work for 20th Century Fox on Mary Wells' first Fox recording sessions in Detroit in early '65, on her first several singles releases and her first Fox LP. That was part ofg 20th Century Fox's plan to ghet into Soul Music, also spawned by Motown's erxplosion of success in late '64 and early '65.

The LaVettes release occurred very late 1965; whereas, Andre Williams' stint with Mercury was from February of that year. This article states that that record was an EARLY Mercury project for Bateman. So it's not very likely that Bateman was signed to Mercury anytime near February, and most of his Mercury time was in late 1965 and early 1966 (a much shorter run than Williams', and only partly overlapping). So, it seems likely that the 2 producers didn't come to Mercury as a package, or as part of a single Mercury plan to "modernize" their Soul Music style. Still, I'd like to find that article I read to find out when Bateman signed with Mercury. It must have been in Record World. But, I would SWEAR that I read it in Billboard, and I can see where I was and the logos on The magazine's front page. I'm SURE I read it in Billboard.

And Bateman recorded the follow-up using Richard Tee's band for Mercury (Smash) in New York, a few months after. But, as he took the tapes to Mercury to overdub the strings, he most likely already had his production deal with them, or he'd have overdubbed the strings in Detroit. So this tells us only THAT, and not when he started with them. He was an independent producer whose contract with Mercury was NOT likely to have been exclusive. He'd still have been allowed to work on his own projects in his "off time". He DID bring Ingram into the Mercury fold with the follow-up, in any case, so Mercury would have been satisfied. The HIB record was released in 1966. Andre Williams was signed by Mercury in February, 1965. We know that Bateman was already working with Mercury in 1966, but not when he started with them. I still need to find the Billboard or Record World article on his signing. It WAS on The Internet when I last read it. But I haven't been able to find it now.

I have no idea who she was. But the song sounds very Poppish-style Girls-Groupy, as many of The Spencers productions did. Those girls had to be at least 12 or 13. The beat is okay, and the general tune of the song is decent. But everything else, instrumental, acoustics, mix, singing, is very weak. To me, a good beat isn't nearly enough to carry a song. I know it IS enough for some "Soulies". Good luck finding out who she was. Maybe she was Carl or Robert's kid? She certainly was very young and not a professional.