Robbk

Those warehouses didn't have any way to get advertising to individual record collectors. If I'd been offered listed, individual obscure non-charted small label records at 10¢ each, I certainly would have bought them, just as I bought them from Woolworth's, Walgreens, and people like Ray Avery, Music Man Murray, etc. Those stores and outlets were also customers of those record warehouses. I was not able to come up with lots of cash to look up the record warehouses, and go buy from them in volume. Also, I was still in school, so had no time to hawk and sell my extras to finance original big purchases. Also, I didn't want to end up as a record seller to make a living. I was taking a heavy science major course in high school, to be able to have a career in environmental science. So had no time to make record collecting/rare record selling my life's work. By the end of the 1970s I had become disillusioned in the environmental consulting business, as government agencies and politicians were ignoring my reports. So I started attending art school to work towards becoming a cartoonist and animation artist, while becoming a co- owner in Airwave Records, and working for them, as well. I didn't scrounge for records much, at all, after 1972, when I moved part-time to The Netherlands, and was otherwise started working on vaulted recordings projects at Motown, starting in 1974. I assume that some of those warehoused records were the source of Woolworth's and Walgreen's 10¢ /$1.00 sales, and the record walls at Ray Avery's and Music Man Murray, and maybe even John Hillyard's stock.

I checked mainly the sources in bold above, plus Woolworth's and Walgreen's (discount stores) which periodically sold cut-out 45s for 10¢ each, and cut-out LPs for 50¢ each, later $1.00 each, plus United Record Distributors (I had a friend there who let me buy small boxes of 25, or five 45s of each record I wanted, at the wholesale price, which started at 35¢, and later, was 50¢ each). I didn't buy records at "Big Chain Record Stores". The few of those that existed didn't carry almost any non-crossover Soul non-big hits. Secondly, I don't remember ever going to big chain record shops, like HMV in London. Maybe there were such US stores, but I don't remember any. Maybe I just went to a few early, but saw there was nothing of interest to me, and just put them out of my mind forever, because I never found anything of interest in mainstream record shops specialising in Pop, C&W, and Classical music. I don't recall distributors' salesmen trying to push cut-out Soul 45s on Mainstream record chains, there would have been no market for them. That type of chain wouldn't want to take up valuable space in their shops with records they couldn't move with low profit margins- even IF they could move them. I'd be shocked to find out that was happening in Chicago or Detroit. Maybe that happened for a short while in New York-New Jersey, and Philadelphia Metro Areas. But, I doubt even that. Where did you get that idea?

This situation is exactly what I had guessed - that Redd recorded all 3 of his Stephanye New York & Washington DC-based artists' vocals in New York; but, we can all clearly hear in the records that Mike Terry arranged the instrumentals, and mostly Motown musicians plus a few other Detroit musicians (George McGregor, Don Davis & others)played on those sessions at Golden World Studios in Detroit. I think that George Kerr recorded most of his Maltese New York Metro -based artists' vocals in New York, other Than Rusty Day, who recorded at Terra-Firma in Detroit, while their instrumentals were recorded at Golden World.

That's something I'd like to see with others also talking about their experiences. And we've had several of that type of thread here over the years. But as for ME starting a thread like that now, it'll have to wait for a while, as I'm very busy on some projects right now, and it took me hours and hours just making the posts on this thread alone. A big factor is the typing, as i'm terrible at it, using the hunt-and-peck system, and due to my shaky hand, I hit a LOT of double keys and wrong keys, and so I end up taking a lot of time editing typos, and always missing some, I have several look-throughs, noticing more. Being a perfectionist, I end up doing a LOT of deep thinking, to make sure I've covered every pertinent aspect. So, composing an account of my record scrounging in those 2 cities, plus Los Angeles (for 7 years), would take me a long time to think deeply, remember the various big strikes, or interesting happenings, like fighting with Steve Propes (the bloke who wrote the book on how to make Thrift Shop Finds) to get records from a find when we both arrived at the same thrift shop at the same time (and he claimed the thrift shops in Long Beach (CA) were HIS territory (as he had that area of town wrapped up first (and gave the workers pies). He delivered pies for a pie bakery, and bribed thrift shop workers near his delivery route to not put out newly received records, saving them for him to see first. He was incensed that they didn't always follow those rules (despite getting day-old pies regularly! The adventures of a record scrounger! You see how detailed I am on a note just to say I'm NOT posting now! It's much easier for me to avoid spending a lot of time posting when I'm busy with other things, if I'm just answering specific questions with a relatively narrow scope, or adding to someone's post to which I can add relevant information when I get such prompts, rather than having to think deeply and compose my thoughts and my writing piece. So I hope you understand. I'll be back when I have more time, or when others post on a subject that I can add relevant information fairly quickly from having a narrow scope or specific question. Thanks for your interesting threads.

Thanks Peter, Hi Peter, Yes, I'm well, at least for my age of almost 80 years. I'm semi-retired, just working on a few stories a year for Dutch Disney, doing some language translations for novels and comic book graphic novels with no work deadlines, so no pressure and I only work on them when I feel energetic. And the work is enjoyable. I should have written a book, each, about the development of Detroit's and Chicago's R&B and Soul music recording industries years ago, while I had the energy. Now it's too late. I'll leave that to others. But it's good to do something enjoyable, and mind-challenging, to keep the grey matter from disappearing. And It keeps my savings from melting away too fast. Which is good, because I have good genes, most of my father's family living well into their 90s, and a couple into early 100s, and my mother's family living well into their 80s, with several into their 90s. I'm still very mobile and svelte, and take 2 long power walks most days. I can still run, if I need to, but it hurts my knees. But, I'm happy to still be here, and happy for every morning I wake up feeling relatively good. I hope it's similar for you. It's really nice that we still have educational threads like this periodically. Unfortunately, this sort-of-thing is petering out (no pun intended ) at Soulful Detroit.

As I understand it, based on the artists own comments in interviews, or what Motown and Detroit music industry insiders told me or commented in interview articles, or in their published books, most of the Detroit-based singing artists that worked for Motown and left, left because they were unsatisfied with the amount of their records that were issued, and with the amount of their contracted pay they were not getting (being held by Berry and parcelled out very slowly - saying it was for their benefit, and were unsatisfied with such little artistic control. And a similar story was told by songwriters not getting enough of their songs recorded by top acts, or not getting enough of those that DID get recorded, issued and marketed with a decent push, and many left because they wanted to produce records, and weren't allowed to do so. Several group members and single artists said that Motown wanted to sign them but they refused based upon what they heard from existing or former Motown artists, about the holding of money, and the company only pushing their favourite few single artists and groups in each category: female Poppish group, female rawer Soul group, male pop/Soul crossover group, male dance/novelty group, falsetto lead groups, tenor and baritone lead groups, alto or soprano groups, etc. Almost NONE of them were "fired" - or not offered a new contract when their previous one was up. Most of them refused to re-sign because they knew they had no chance to break into the favoured group or favoured single artist status, or they would never be allowed to produce. Don Davis, Don Juan Mancha, Mike Terry, J.J. Barnes, Emanuel Laskey, Wilbur Jackson, Jackey Beavers, Clyde Wilson (Steve Mancha), Richard Morris, Herman Griffin, Mary Wells, Brenda Holloway, Patrice Holloway, Marc Gordon, Ed Cobb, Norman Whitfield, Holland, Dozier, and Holland, Freddie Gorman, Popcorn Wiley, Tony Hester, Sidney Barnes, George Clinton, The Parliaments, Mickey Stevenson, Kim Weston, Jimmy Ruffin, The Spinners, Jack Ashford, Joe Hunter, Robert Staunton, Robert Walker, etc. I could go on and on. All of them left because of the reasons I mentioned above. The only employees I can recall, who were actually "fired" were Eddie Singleton, and Robert Dobyne. The only one I can recall whose contact wasn't offered a renewal, was Marv Johnson, and that was probably just because of the move to L.A. and Berry's need to concentrate on films, and so, have less artists. I guess that Martha and The Vandellas, Junior Walker and The All Stars, The Contours, The Marvelettes, Velvelettes and most of the other secondary or lesser Detroit acts were not renewed during that 1969-73 transition period. I seem to remember James Epps saying that The Fantastic Four refused to sign with Motown in the mid '60s when first scouted, and apparently when Motown bought out Golden World. Motown bought their contract when they purchased The Second Ric-Tic label in 1968, and Wingate was allowed to hang on for a couple months after that to release 5 more records (mostly by The Detroit Emeralds and The Flaming Embers. Motown gave the group some good material to record. But they never put even remotely enough marketing push behind their issues. So the group left to go to Armen Boladian's Westbound/Eastbound Records so they could help their career instead of being "sat upon" with no chance to break through. Aretha Franklin was courted by Gordy. Her father advised her against signing with Motown, and she became a mega star with Atlantic, because she was their most talented rawer style female Soul singer. She was offered the contract there before Gladys Knight came to Motown, and both before and after Gordy got rid of most of his "Bluesy" female singers like Mable John, LaBrenda Ben, Hattie Littles and Liz Lands. I doubt that he'd have dropped Aretha at that time, however. Gwen Owens, when she started out in the early 1960s said she refused to sign with Motown because she'd be lost in a sea of artists. By 1972, her manager got her an interesting project with Motown, but teaming up with Fame Studios. So she took it. But Motown didn't put any serious push behind it, so it didn't come to anything worth much for her. So she went on to other opportunities. The Dramatics also mentioned something about not wanting to sign with Motown. They got their breakthrough with Stax/Volt, and even working there with Detroit producers. I remember lots of stories like that. I can't remember all the groups and artists, but there were many. By the way... You mentioned in the initial post that Berry Gordy was not interested much in The Fantastic Four (like J.J. Barnes) because they were too much like acts Motown already had that were doing well. Barnes was too much like Marvin Gaye (and Marvin was his brother-In-Law) so that situation was a bit touchy. But which Motown act were The Fantastic Four almost a clone??? I think they were very unique. I don't think they were too much like The Four Tops or Temptations or The Spinners. The Contours were just about disbanded by then. I think Gordy could have made room for them on The Motown Pantheon.

Good observation, Roburt. Detroit was not the place to be between 1966 and 1968. I'm sure that played a part in Edwin's long stays in Europe. Lucky for him that the Motown-Detroit Soul craze was heating up right during that period, and he was in high Demand, especially in The British Isles and Western Europe.

Thanks Roburt, for that added information about the timing of Gene Redd's new projects in New York. Based on everything I read and heard, I would guess that Redd never gave up his residence in The New York Metro Area, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, and commuted back and forth. It seems that he didn't work more than a half year, at most, for Wingate. And he must have made some short trips to New York on several extended weekends, during that time. J.J. Barnes, The Holidays, and Carl Wright were NOT Motown artists when that Howard Theatre show was held. They, like Gene Chandler, were on the show's roster because they agreed to appear for an agreed upon price. Gordy, in addition to purchasing The rights to The Golden World Records name, their recording studio and office building and land it was on, all the Wingate labels' master tapes and old record stock, demo recordings, Myto Music Publishing Co., and the artist contracts of J.J. Barnes, Edwin Starr, and The Fantastic Four, and the songwriting and producer contracts of Richard Morris and Al Kent. This sale was finalised on September 10, 1966. Freddie Gorman returned to Motown around that time, but that move was unrelated, as he had left Golden World/Ric-Tic well before the sale. Here is an announcement of the 50-year anniversary celebration of that event by Motor City Flashbacks from "The Soundtrack of Your Life" crew in 2016:

Yes, in several places, but not in others. So I don't think it is Barbara. But she sounds more like her than anyone I can think of, offhand.

Can we hear a snippet of it, to maybe identify the artist (or, at least, make a best guess)?

I think Sonny Sanders started working on arrangements in Chicago for Carl Davis at Okeh (Artistics, Major Lance, etc.) BEFORE December 1965, apparently, while he was still working on recordings for Golden World-Ric-Tic, and on other Detroit productions.

I haven't read Al's book. Did he mention the reason Wingate fired Redd? It couldn't be just his making an expensive long-distance telephone call on JoAnne's phone. He must have been talking over a personal deal with a record company in New York (maybe Musicor, or his financier of Redd Coach?) that wouldn't involve Wingate. Or was it a completely unrelated thing Redd did? In any case, it must have been a misunderstanding about Redd's relative independence from Wingate's employment of him. Maybe Ed thought Redd agreed to provide his songwriting and record producing services EXCLUSIVELY to HIS (Wingate's) operations, while Gene assumed that he was still a free agent, who could work on outside projects that wouldn't involve Wingate, as long as he'd fulfill his contract obligations to the latter, (as the written contract probably didn't including wording covering that subject, but Ed thought they had that understanding from their verbal discussions).

I think that could have occurred. I don't think Al would make that up. He'd have had to leave because of the sale, anyway. But that happened, and Wingate didn't like what he did, so that was likely the reason. Redd had things going in New York that he cared about more. Redd Coach started up not all that long after, and it must have taken some months of lead time for setting it up. So, he must have been looking for something that would look more promising than his revenue coming from his Detroit work.

Ed Wingate owned several hotels, apartment buildings, a few nightclubs, a Taxi cab business, ran numbers game, and other sources of income. He was hoping to do really well with Golden World, but didn't need to. He bought it partly for Joanne's entertainment, and some prestige. He wasn't making anything like Berry Gordy was with Motown, but Golden World WAS making money. It was said that his problem was that he had some things go wrong in one of his other businesses and needed a lot of cash right away. The word got out when he started asking for a big loan. Gordy jumped on that and offered him an amount he couldn't refuse, to get him out of business as a possible competitor (a Million Dollars was a LOT of money in 1966). Wingate re-opened Ric-Tic on a VERY small scale, and kept it going another 2 years, but lost interest after that. He hadn't earned as much as he thought he would renting out studio time. But that was because his own productions were on a bigger scale than he had planned. But THAT wasn't the reason he sold out. He hadn't really failed in that business. He was progressing towards doing well. There was only one Motown. He sold out because of other reasons. Succeeding in the music business wasn't his great goal in life. It was just one of many businesses he owned. IF he became a giant success at it like Berry Gordy did, and very quickly (after just a few years) he'd have been happy. But he certainly wasn't crushed by failing to do that (unlike Joanne, whose heart and soul was invested in it). At least my view of it is based on what I heard. Very early in Tamla's history (1961) when Ed came ton Berry, to get some advice on how to start his new record company, Gordy invited him to come into Motown as a partner. But Wingate turned down the offer, because he knew both of them were too strong-willed to compromise, and their working together wouldn't work. That shows me that it being a record company wasn't his dream. It was just one of many different attempts to make more money. IF it would make him a millionaire in just a few years... GREAT! If NOT, he'd move on to trying something else. If it had been his major goal, he'd have come back with a new record company over and over again after failures (Like Mike Hanks did several times - which only stopped because he got killed).

The most comprehensive description of Golden World's history that I can remember seeing is This "Webisode' at Soulful Detroit Forum's Archives' "Tours": https://soulfuldetroit.com/web07-golden world/golden world story/index.html I could add some details based on what documentation I've seen and what I've heard from insiders and Detroiters from the industry, who were around when those events were happening, and were told relevant information or 2nd hand descriptions from insiders, relating to your questions, but I'm very busy right now, working on a few different projects, and already being pulled in too many directions, and at almost 80, it's tough to rustle up the energy for even one task at a time. So it will be a while before I can get to this. I've already posted what I know (or, at least, have been told by trusted sources) related to some of your questions , on some previous threads on this forum and on Soulful Detroit. However, I can't remember, offhand, on which subforum they're located, nor their exact thread titles. But I do remember that we've discussed these issues before. Maybe I can clear some protracted time to post some brief (concise general) descriptions of what I remember within several days from now. But, maybe someone else here can remember the title of threads here, where we've discussed these questions. One thing you should remember is that Wingate's and Bratton (Jackson)'s operation was never nearly as large as Motown's, and so, they never had more than a handful of salaried, full-time employees. Everyone else, including the producers, background singers, songwriters, arrangers, session musicians, etc. were either ad-hoc workers, or free-lance contractors, paid by the project, or piece-work production or task, or similar basis by contract. Very few worked full-time and exclusively for GW/Ric-Tic. Sonny Sanders, Popcorn Wylie, Don Davis, Rich Morris, Richard Parker, Sidney Barnes, George Kerr, Gene Redd, Jr., Joe Hunter, Gil Askey, George Clinton, Freddy Gorman, Mike Terry, Sammy Lowe, Robert Banks, etc. All were free to work on outside projects while working on productions for Wingate (and most of them had other things going throughout their run at GW. Sonny Sanders was working with several other Detroit labels early in his GW run. He DID leave GW in late 1965, when he was offered a full time job with Carl Davis' Chicago Okeh Records office. But, even then, he probably started working on his first few Okeh productions before leaving Wingate, and was still allowed to finish up his last scheduled sessions with Wingate. Sanders was still spending ,some time in Detroit even while working in Chicago. So, he still did some "moonlighting there (maybe mostly on weekends?) Barrett Strong started working in Chicago in 1962, and worked with Calvin Carter at VJ, and met Carl Davis while working in Chicago. Strong had met The Artistics when they'd been appearing at venues shows in which Motown groups were also appearing. He and their lead singer, Marvin Smith, became good friends, and Strong offered to write several songs for Smith's group. Davis liked Strong's writing and asst. producing on recording sessions, so he offered him a full-time job with Okeh. Gene Redd had worked as a songwriter and artist demo producer for Jobete Music's New York office, and so, was a colleague of George Kerr and Sidney Barnes, and George Clinton in that capacity. Berry Gordy had Kerr & Barnes and Clinton make some trips to Detroit to present songs, record demos, and eventually, after closing down The New York office, asked them to move to Detroit to join Motown's writing and producing staff there. After several months working for Motown, they became dissatisfied that their songs weren't getting final recording (with "hit treatment", (most songs were just recorded as demos), and any that were final were only given flip side level instrumental mixes. We can only assume that they decided to leave, to gain more artistic control of their projects, and a better chance to make money. As they were in Detroit, they must have either come to Ed Wingate's attention, or they went to see him, looking to work for him. Wingate liked their work and they started working on productions. George Kerr found a financier in New Jersey to back a new label for him(Maltese), and Wingate allowed them to work out of his office, with Golden World distributing that label, and sharing the publishing when Wingate's own writers or producers were also involved. Kerr & Barnes and Clinton introduced their Jobete NY colleague, Gene Redd to Wingate, and Wingate made a similar distribution deal with him for his new Stephanye Records, sharing Maltese's office and using Wingate's Myto Music as publisher. I'd guess that there was no falling out with Wingate. Kerr, Barnes, Clinton and Redd were forced to leave partnership with Wingate when Gordy bought the recording studio (which included the office space), the contracts of Wingate's artists, publishing company, tape library. And Wingate signed an agreement to not operate a record company in Metro Detroit (or Southern Michigan), causing him to operate his stripped down, tiny, new Ric-Tic operation out of his house, with only a few artists/groups, and to make his new corporate address in Illinois, and record his artists mostly in Chicago. So, Redd returned to New York (where he'd never really left), and Clinton joined his former GW colleague, Don Davis at Davis and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions (Revilot Records), and George Kerr returned to New Jersey (where he'd also never left - just having rented an apartment in Detroit-and commuting between there and New York). As to the ratio of recordings issued commercially to recordings made, I'd guess a much higher % of Wingate's recordings made were issued than that for Motown. I don't think we are missing very many that were recorded that were never issued. I noticed that SOME of the recordings on The Groovesville Masters bootleg tapes sold in The UK during the early 1990s were really Wingate productions, rather than Don Davis' own Groovesville productions. They were probably taken mostly off acetates, rather than from master tapes. Many Wingate acetates were left in Studio B when Motown took over, and they were just thrown in with Motown acetates (which is why Stephanye acetates like "My Kind of Girl" were found in Motown's storage). I don't think there were more than maybe a small handful of Wingate recordings for which we don't currently have recordings. More to come when I get some time.

"The Temptations Sing Smokey"

Thanks. I wondered why downstate, Centralia, in the middle of C&W yodeling country, would producer a Soul record. This meshes better with The Softiques' members memories of not recording any other songs, or having any releases. There were no backup singers, so I assume THESE Softiques were Spears' band musicians. Another of life's coincidences that the C&W record was pressed in Chicago, within no more than a couple years of the Soul group's Sheldon demo.

Apparently, The Softiques backed up John Spears on a Soul record from a tiny label in a farm town in rural Illinois. Unfortunately I couldn't find an MP4 of it on YouTube.

Yes, this and ALL other Sheldon Records are just demos, whether on acetate or vinyl. And they're not even made for distribution to DJs. The Softiques' was likely a special order, made by McCormack, who didn't want 100 or 200 DJ copies pressed, but only wanted to pay for maybe a box of 25 demos to hand to a few DJs with whom he had some connection or intro, and a few that he or General Johnson could use to promote the record to record companies. Bob A (may he rest in peace) said that member Betty Berry said that only a few were made. That's why it is so rare, and only a couple are known.

Thanks Dobber, Was The Condors on Sheldon issued on a vinyl commercial issue that looks like a real commercial record company label - something like The Softiques' Sheldon DJ copies? I knew The Condors same recording on Limelight, and as The Condors only on a Sheldon demo acetate. I have hundreds upon hundreds of US Midwest (and even some East Coast records) mastered at Sheldon. And an awful lot of Chicago Area productions were recorded there. But, to my knowledge, they didn't really operate a commercial record label (unlike many other recording studios who had their own successful record labels, some even operating subsidiary labels, as well. The Softiques seems to have been an unique, special case. I've never seen another Sheldon record that were vinyl non demo one-offs, but were actually commercial-looking DJ vinyl pressings. There was one other Sheldon Records issue with the same coloured label design as The Softiques; but it was just an an advert to promote Sheldon's services, with various 10 seconds snippets of the various music genres they'd recorded.

Thanks very much, Hunter! This is one of the few of his interview I haven't yet heard.

Clearly, the recent pressing's version with the chopped of ending of "Two Kinds of Boys" was taken off an acetate left at Sheldon's recording studio, in case McCormack would be successful using the small run of DJ copies to shop his record to a "real" record company. Sheldon didn't really have a commercial record label. They mainly recorded mastered records, and cut demo acetates or vinyl demos. I was shocked to see that they pressed up commercial-looking DJ issues with a colour label for McCormack. I rather doubt that the press run was more than 100 (2 boxes of 50), probably only 50. They are dead rare. I don't think they got any airplay. I didn't hear them played on WBEE, WVON, or WNYR. And from Bob's (May he rest in peace) comments, I assume that the girls never even knew the DJ issues were pressed up. They probably knew only about a couple demo acetates McCormack got, to shop the record to a real record company. Betty Berry (Crawford), lead singer on "Bashful" went on to hook up with Ruth Moore, to be in a couple later groups (Destiny and Coffee). Gloria Lewis, (Lead on "Two Kinds of Boys") left the business when she became pregnant, and the group broke up. "Two Kinds of Boys" is a super mid '60s Chicago Soul Sound, which is right up there in quality with lots of Curtis Mayfield's and Carl Davis' best, and deserved a better fate. Too bad The Girls didn't get any money from their 2009-present sales. The interview mentioned that Gloria Carver and Valencia Gray were the other 2 members. I'd like to find out with which other labels McCormack worked, and how General Johnson was involved (as financier and marketer?).

Thanks Marcos, But I'm trying to get to his Artist Interview shows, specifically, his interview of Betty Berry (Crawford) of The Softiques. I was blocked from the site, with an error message that seemed to imply that the website doesn't exist. Maybe the security settings on my new computer are set too high? Robb

I tried to go there, and got an error message that implied that it is no longer accessible (or in operation). I had thought that some people were given access to it to save it.

Interesting to see a photo of little Simon, with his mother and aunt from Morocco (probably taken after they moved to France). And it's also interesting that one of our Airwave Records singing artists, Art Posey was co-writer, together with Simon, on "Mr. Big Shot". It's a very small World!