Robbk

And well worth the wait!!!

https://jerrysolomon.bandcamp.com/track/sail-sail Clearly, you haven't heard "Sail, Sail" by Solomon!!! Will you send €11, instead? Listen to THIS!!! - IF YOU DARE!!! Click on the link at this post's very top, ABOVE the copy of the post to which I am referring. Sorry for the weird positioning of the audio link:

He was one of my favourite singers. What a smooth voice. Sorry he's gone. But he lived to a decent age. There are not many left of the great R&B singers from The early 1950s, who got me interested in music.

I don't think it was a matter of Chess being frightened by lawsuits from a British company. I think it was a lot more about Chess expanding strongly into international markets (especially Britain and Western Europe), and they wanted to upgrade their narrow former image as a merely an American Blues and R&B label, to an international multi-genre record company; and they wanted to have good relationships with UK and European distributors, where British Decca was already strongly entrenched. This was also a chance to enhance their marketing by alliterating their major label names, by changing the Argo to a name starting with C, to have their vocalised label lineup roll off the tongue: "The Chess, Checker, Cadet (and later, Cadet Concept) Group, which not long after, was introduced into their marketing campaigns, including on their company record sleeves. Argo was too unique, and different a name, with a much more individualised logo (picture of Jason's ship), invoking the idea of The Argosy - an image of the company taking a voyage up the charts from anonymity to World fame. Indeed, during the time of their early black and silver label, it was difficult to make the connection that it was related to the more bland Chess and Checker labels, unless one noticed the Arc Music credits.

I remember seeing the black first, but both were out early in the record's run. Likely they were just different pressing plant issues, with one plant having a back stock of the older black blank labels, and having to use them up first. Black came first on Argo, and later, the brown design.

Griffin was trying to be Mary's manager (agent and advisor) again, like he had been both before, and while they were married. And, he didn't like the influence Robert West had on her, as her advisor. Griffin had advised Mary to threaten to leave Motown, unless they'd come up with a much larger contract, and pay her all the money she'd earn from them, instead of them only giving her an allowance, and "managing" it for her. Of course, Berry Gordy didn't go for that. So, she left. And now, Griffin thought, she was on the verge of becoming a mega star with 20th Century Fox, and their big media empire. Reportedly, West told Griffin to get out of Mary's life, once and for all. Apparently, that was too much for the jealous Griffin to take from West, who Griffin saw as being the only thing in his way from getting back in Mary's good graces as her advisor, and getting in on her coming gravy train. But, the jealousy clouded his mind enough to make him do something very stupid. Luckily, for him and West, he wasn't a good shot, and West recovered, and Griffin had a long career in music after that.

Griffin shot Robert West AFTER he and Mary were divorced. He also advised Mary to leave Motown after they were divorced.

Herman Griffin. The one who lived in Detroit, worked at Motown, and met Mary when she was a late teen. Griffith was a D.J. in L.A., and worked for L.A. Jobete Music, and Joker Records.

I don't understand your referring us to this book citation. L.A. DJ Herman Griffith has nothing at all to do with Cincinnati's and Detroit's Herman Griffin. And, as far as I know, Mary Wells had nothing to do with Connie Cark.

Yes, she's DEFINITELY not Connie.

I thought I remembered him passing on. You see, you've got to ask even ME your questions right now, before I get more senile!

Couldn't hurt to contact him. Does he interview old producers and artists from the '60s? Is there an L.A. person who does what Bob A. did in Chicago? Someone I could have asked about Connie was KGFJ DJ Herman Griffith, who was a producer and part owner of Joker Records. But, I believe he died some years ago. Why do we wait so long to ask these questions, until no one is around to answer them? My experience has been that even people who were involved in the recording sessions of these 45s don't remember any details 20-30-40 or 50 years later, of these one-off 45s by one-off artists. I found that true with Mike McLean, Robert Bateman, The Holland Brothers, and so many others. Unless the people in question were around the studios or company offices regularly, AND, the person being asked was friendly with them, and they had at least several close working or personal dealings with them, they became just a name they remember from the past, about which they can remember nothing else. Like so many of them said, "I can't even remember working on that session. We did so many. It was just 'work' to us." Unless we get lucky, and actually find someone who knew Connie personally, outside the business, as well as in, we're not likely to find anyone who knows anything about her, including if she also sang under another name.

Duplicate post.

I must have been having a "senior moment" when I asked that question. I now remember seeing several small and tiny L.A. indie labels with Cyril Roberts' name as a songwriter or producer on records from the early and mid 1960s. Unfortunately, I can't remember the specific labels or groups or singers.

There is a reason for that. The ballad side was the "A" side from the '40s through most of the '50s. The harmony groups specialised in love song ballads(the serious stuff); and, at first, the faster (jump blues sides were considered "novelty" (frivolous-less important). The battle of the bands always featured ballads until the very late '50s, because they were the top-notch performances which the groups practised much, much more. Of course, the ballads are better for slow dancing, which was a lot better for couples who wanted to touch each other (which was what sex-starved teens wanted most to do). In the 1960s it started being about half and half fast and slow as the groups started singing fast sweet songs, and novelty songs died out except for The Olympics and Contours, and fast dance songs written to do the new fast dances to. In the late '60s the fast sides started taking over for many groups, but there were still ballad singers who may have had 2 slow sides, but even when they sang fast songs, the slow side was usually the "A" side.

I think she was an Ikette after she recorded for Frank Wilson. And I'm guessing that she was a background singer both before and after she was an Ikette, given that she didn't have enough of a solo and group member career to earn a steady living.

What's the story on this recording? Why do you think it can help id the vocalist? - because the instrumental is out of the way? I guess we can hear more easily that this person is definitely NOT Chris Clark. Do we know that THIS singer IS Connie Clark?

Now that you mention it, I DO remember seeing a white issue of the Eddie King, as well.

I've never seen a white demo of 1972. The only white demos, or non-sticker-tagged demo of a Big Wheel issue I've seen were The Falcons' "Standing On Guard", and Sandy Hollis' "I'm Tempted". And, I can't be sure that the latter isn't a bootleg, because it was the green, store stalker, that I bought at the time the record was out, and got the white copy a few years later (which, incidentally, doesn't have any wording on it related to being a promotional copy).

After listening to several Chris Clark cuts, I've changed my mind. I'm very confident that Chris and Connie were two different people. Every song sung by Chris Clark that I've played, and can remember in my head has her with a lighter, less full voice, which gets "breathy" whenever she reaches for higher notes, or at the end of extending to a longer note/ Connie, on the other hand, has a more full, and heavy voice all through her song, and her voice never gets "breathy", even when she extends for a long note, or in reaching for the high end of her range. Also, although their individual tones are fairly close as unrelated people go, they are different enough to surmise that they are different people (e.g. ALL Chris Clark's recordings reveal personal tones that are much more alike (with each other), than they are to Connie's "My Sugar Baby". So, until I hear other cuts by Connie that have her singing in a lighter, less full voice, with a tone closer to Chris', AND getting "breathy" when extending a long note, or to the high end of her range, I'll continue to feel very confident that they are/were two different people.

Yes, Connie sounds enough like Chris to make that guess seem plausible. The problem is that there aren't enough of Connie's recordings to make a thorough comparison. Two different people can sound similar when comparing only one song, each, just by coincidence, because that one, particular song, by chance didn't require one or the other (or both) to stretch towards the end of their abilities, to hit a high or low note, or carry a long note to its end, or bring out a particular unique personal style nuance that would set one apart from the other. There are songs that challenge the singer to reach for new heights, and those which are more standard, in which less differences in singing style come out. Our problem here is that we don't have a Connie Clark recording that challenges her enough to hear some (maybe ANY) of her unique style features, that would set her apart from Chris to a degree which would make it obvious that they were two different people. "My Sugar Baby" IS a song that could challenge a singer such as Connie. But, unfortunately, she didn't challenge herself enough by changing her emotional input enough to produce enough of a personal style difference to make it obvious that she is not Chris Clark. To me, she DOES sound different enough from the way Chris does on several recordings, but not quite enough for me to rule out the possibility that they aren't the same person. In other words, if a gun were put to my head, and the holder would ask me to decide if they are the same person, or 2 different people, and if my answer would be wrong he would fire it, I would guess they were 2 different people. BUT, on the other hand, I am not confident enough that that is absolutely true, for me to bet my entire assets on that fact - proving that I'm not convinced enough that I can rule out any possibility that they ARE the same person.

I really doubt that Connie Clark was Connie Van Dyke, who lived in Detroit, was a C&W singer, and won a radio station singing contest as a teenager, to win her having Motown record and release a record on her. Connie Clark lived in L.A. Their voices don't sound alike, at all.

Right! Extremely unlikely to be this one. Connie Clark was a session background singer in L.A., who came to Frank Wilson's attention when he was a songwriter and independent producer. It's unlikely that she was in her 40s when he met her. I think she was in her early 20s at the time of her Jobete L.A, and Joker Records recordings. Also, she sounded more like in her 20s than in her 40s. All the Jobete L.A. female background singers (that I can remember - Brenda and Patrice Holloway, Pat Hunt, Mary Love, Gloria Jones, Sandy Wynns, Jean King, Debra Dion, etc. were either in their late teens or early 20s. I believe that young girls and women generally acted as if they had a short time window in that industry. If they didn't make it fairly big in that industry, as a fairly-well-known singer by their mid 20s, they started leaving to return to school to work on getting into a more stable career, or taking jobs in other fields, or marrying their boyfriends and becoming housewives. Only those prolific background groups, like The Blossoms, Raelettes, and Cookies, etc., could be assured of earning a regular enough income to stay in the music business as a singer, if they couldn't make a regular living through public appearances as a featured singer, or in a featured group.

This woman has GOT to be way-y-y-y too young to have been 20+ years old in 1965.

Some Motown insiders have stated that they had heard that Berry Gordy originally set up that label for Miss Ray to run, because she wanted to try her hand in producing records and working with new, young artists. But, clearly, Berry had a lot to do with the label from the beginning, both producing sessions and writing for the artists. He wasn't going to give his long-coveted newly-signed Temptations away to solo handling by Raynoma. She did use the label to get out a record on herself (Little Iva). As stated above, Miracle Records was converted to Gordy Records in early 1962, with The Temptations, and Valadiers moving with the label. Mel-O-dy Records was started soon after, as Motown's 4th imprint, at first, also as mainly an R&B label. before a big change a few months later, when they started a new Gospel label (Divinity), Jazz label (Workshop Jazz), and Mel-O-dy was converted first, to a catch-all label, adding Pop and novelty, and soon after, becoming a C&W label, ending up as a more diversified record company, attempting to serve several different musical markets with 6 different label imprints, using multiple distributors, and within one more year, opening up production offices and marketing offices in different areas of the country (Los Angeles, New York, and Texas). So, Starting Miracle Records was the first major move to increase the size and diversification of the company.