Robbk

Thanks Ady. That makes the situation quite different. I assume 1976 was after they had split up, businesswise, so she established Baku Music for her new solo projects. And so, she was involved in Miko/Magnificent, at least to the extent of Ashford arranging for her to be paid her royalties. So Ashford's covering up the old credits on the demos was apparently just done to make the recordings appear to be newer recordings than they actually were, so that MAM would take on the project.

I find it interesting that MAM's Magnificent Records has The Magnificents as a group, and has R. Montague as a co-writer with Jack Ashford on an instrumental song. This leads me to believe that it was a co-production (or some kind of production deal) between ex-DJ Magnificent Montague and Ashford. Although his first name was Nathaniel, so why the "R" first initial?

No. This guy's voice isn't as smooth, mellow, or sweet as C.P.'s. I don't think it is William Weatherspoon, because this voice doesn't sound like the so-called Witherspoon demo version of "Baby Hitand Run" (although, that isn't 100% confirmed to be Weatherspoon). Maybe this IS James Dean. But, I thought that Weatherspoon (generally supposed to be the better singer) (who sang in DooWop groups) supposedly sung all their writer demos.

Maybe because Ashford, now living in L.A., knew they were a British label, but they had an office in L.A. with whom he could deal conveniently; and as they were mainly, or by then, only dealing in Britain, he figured they could distribute easily to the Northern Soul-oriented sellers. Why they were pressed on US 45 format might be because his NS advisors (connections who suggested he press up any previously unreleased masters he had) told him The Northern collectors value US pressings more than British, if they are repressings (not original releases at the time of recording).

That is, indeed, what this action implies.......that Jack had possession of the tapes of the outtake versions and unreleased cuts. He could release those without Lorraine's knowledge. Just because he moved to L.A. didn't mean he couldn't continue operations of or "revive" his Detroit label. He could have released all these cuts on Triple B, with Lorraine handling the day-today operations in Detroit, and him commuting back and forth; OR he could have moved Triple B's operations to L.A. (as Robert West did in moving LuPine from Detroit to Las Vegas), with Lorraine commuting to L.A., or just having her sign legal papers and send them in the post.

I see now that this was more directed by Blackpool Soul's comment that MAM was a MAJOR label, which is one of the reasons I thought it was the London MAM. But, I see now that The MAM/Magnificent/Miko record lists "Baku", and "Bon-Jose Music" as the publisher, instead of Jack Ashford's original "Daedalian Music". So, it looks like this MAM/Magnificent/Miko label in Beverly Hills, California was NOT Ashford's, but that he leased the pressing, and label rights to the owner of that label and distribution rights to that new label's parent company?; and perhaps "Baku Music" represents the partnership of Ashford and Magnificent/Miko's owner, and maybe "Bon-Jose Music" represents MAM Records or the distributor? In any case, I'd guess that Ashford didn't own that CA label.

Yes, almost all of what I like is 1967 or back. But I still have knowledge of a reasonable amount of what was being released in 1968-70. I was still buying many of the Motown records at that time, and of those almost 100 1970-71 records I own, probably 95 of them are Motown labels with '60s-sounding cuts on them (I didn't buy The Temptations' "psychadelic songs" (unless they had a reasonably sweet cut on the flip, but bought The Miracles, later Martha & Vandellas, Four Tops, "new" Supremes, Jimmy Ruffin, Jr. Walker, Stevie Wonder, etc., plus a couple '60s sounding Chicago Sound records. That Spring '66 date was when I stopped listening to WVON and KGFJ, as there were too many songs I didn't like (James Brown Funk etc.) to wade through before I'd get to hear something I'd like, and also a lot of the DJs were talking through the songs. I hated when Magnificent Montague would keep replaying the ending of a song and keep shouting "Five and a half more bars!!!" Ah.......The GOOD old days! I didn't know how bad the music would get!

Well, this shows my ignorance of The 1970s. My interest in music lies mainly between 1936 and 1970. I own many thousands of 45s from 1947-1969. I own something like maybe 100 between 1970 and 1972, and, perhaps 3 or 4 after that (other than the Airwave records I kept as keepsakes). To be honest, If someone put a gun to my head, and said: "Name an artist who recorded for MAM Records, I would exist no more. I only know the label from flipping through bins of 45s during the 1970s and early '80s. I just saw the label above and the typed description above, which reads: "Miko (MAM)" So, I assumed the record was on The Miko label, which was a subsidiary of '70s MAM, as it looks like a '70s label design. So, sorry about the confusion. Please just disregard my comment, as it is clear the situation with this record is far outside my experience.

That happened a lot when major labels (who didn't have much knowledge about how to market a run-of-the-mill recording Soul music by a group unknown to the general public, and also who didn't have the sales force with the distribution and sales connections to the main Soul Distributors and record shops (i.e. RCA, Capitol, Columbia, WB, MGM). MAM fit that group. They sold almost no Soul music. This recording was NOT appealing enough to the ears general Pop fans to sell itself, needed because the artist's name was unknown. So, I'm guessing that MAM didn't get many orders for it, so the initial pressing was very low, and they couldn't even sell those. So no more press runs were made.

These 2 recordings sound to me like two different takes. They are very similar, but seem to have differences in the vocals, length of the trails, and different mixes, as well.

I've just listened to several Joe Matthews cuts. The singer doesn't sound like him, either. Maybe it was Billy Kennedy?

I've listened to the recording several times and it doesn't sound like Emmanuel to me. This voice sounds deeper, and a lot less raspy than Emmanuel's. I'm going to listen to Joe Matthews' more bluesy cuts to see if the singer sounds more like him.

Yes it does. I think, if I remember correctly, both Lasky and Matthews recorded it. Spyder could have gotten the tape from Clay, or Joey King Fish, or Hazel or Robert Coleman. He knew them all. I know he and Clay were friends. They both were regular posters on our Soulful Detroit Forum for many years. And one of them brought the other to the forum (I'm pretty sure Spyder brought Clay). I just read above, Clay was Spyder's manager at that time. Well, he was also one of Thelma's 3 major producers at that time (Don Davis had left to work with Golden World, and on his own Groovesville Records by then). So Clay had a lot of clout at Thelma, and he was Spyder's manager. So Spyder simply asked Clay to find him a tape to use for the flip. I assume that Clay had no demos sung by Spyder at that time. That shows you why you should always have a couple cuts handy, in case of such a situation. Too bad you all didn't ask this question several years ago. I could have just asked them both what went down.

No wonder Spyder's lip sinkinjg on that song was so lousy! He hadn't sung that song much at all, because he hadn't recorded it and had little time to practice it when he started making appearances. And listening to it, it sounds very like a Thelma, Clay MacMurray or Joey King Fish production, rather than a Theodore/Coffey production (his MGM producers/arrangers (who produced a thinner, cleaner sound, and less Funky material. I always wondered why that one cut sounded so different from the rest of his MGM LP/single cuts.

Clay worked as a producer for Thelma and had a good relationship with The Colemans. He was probably in on the production of that recording. So that was a recording to which he had easy access. i seem to remember seeing the Good Time release in 1965, and not seeing the Kenny Carter till 1966. Also, the New York/New Jersey Area label font and label design seems too "old" for 1966. I don't think that design was used as late as mid 1966.

Well, they had several American Football players, who managed to play some games in The NFL. The only one on that who could remotely be considered an NFL star, was Cornell Green, and even his name wasn't a household word (e.g. he was only known by serious football fans).

The '80s Imperials had only group founder Clarence Collins left from either the original END Records "Little Anthony and The Imperials", or the classic lineup of the group that got together when Little Anthony returned from his short solo career. THAT lineup included Clarence Collins, Jerome Anthony Gourdine (Little Anthony), Ernest Wright, and Sammy Strain, ALL of whom had been with the later End group, but Strain was not an original group member (he joined 1 year later, when Nate Rogers left). They were together from late 1963 through about 1976 or 1977, when Anthony left again for a second try at a solo career. So, the late 1977- the 1980s group had only Clarence Collins as an original member. The classic group got back together in 1992, for gigs on The oldies Circuit, and remained together until 2004, when Sammy Strain died. From 1961-the end of 1963, "The Imperials" (WITHOUT Anthony) operated as a different group, recording for Capitol Records, Double-L, and a couple other labels, with Collins on lead, and little success, but with some nice R&B/Soul transitional recordings (all of which I bought).

Oh! I thought that read 10028. It was too small for me to see the dash. Yes, I'd say it was an Original (as opposed to being a boot or a pressing made years later as a re-issue to be sold as an "oldie"). But it could possibly be the second pressing during the initial sales run, made at a different pressing plant. I remember a blue one early, as well.

That's an interesting question because it's really hard to peg a label colour to a specific time, for Fraternity, as they used different colour labels in different pressing plants at the same time. Worse yet, I seem to remember the earliest Fraternitys being blue, then, the label went to maroon, then back to blue then back to Maroon again. I would guess that you'd have to go by whats scratched and stamped into the runout. A second pressing might use the same pressing number, because the same stampers were used. But, maybe there would be different code letters after it. My Albert Washingtons are all in the 900s and 1000s. That longer series was later. But I don't know offhand if that means it is automatically a 2nd pressing. All my Albert Washingtons have different extra codes etched into the wax. We'll need to get an expert on Fraternity to answer this. I even have one that has BOTH a Coumbia AND an RCA pressing code number!!!

Mine has T-118 etched in on the top, it also has a stamped seemingly 4 letter cursive word written into the top area to the left of the T-118, and it is right side up, while T-118 is upside down. The stamp also has a roundish, pushed-in area in the stamped area's centre, and THAT makes it difficult for me to read. It looks like ARP in caps and a small letter "s" after those. There is another stamped area on the left side of the upright label. It is ARP all in fancy Italic script -all capital letters. It's interesting that my Topper 1015 "Challenge My Love"/"Sweep It Out In The Shed" has only the cut pressing number etched in and the ARP stamp, while 1011's "Talkin About Love" has those and also adds a set of initials (capital letters URN), and the Temple records have ALL that (initials only 2 letters-WS) plus the record catalogue number etched in as well, and Nashville Matrix in cursive script stamped in. Could the initials be those of the masterer?

Well, even Canadian ice hockey star, Joe Thornton, after hearing thousands of people mispronounce his name, probably just gave up trying to tell them how it is pronounced properly. The name must come from a rural place somewhere in England. The suffix "ton" meant "a small settlement" in later Old English and all of Middle English. In Canada we pronounced the "n". In England they pronounce the "n". I wonder if it is pronounced in India, and Papua Pidgin English?

Well, Thornton is a cousin of Brian and Eddie Holland, and he owned a recording studio, with which many of the Motowners, and other Detroit Soul singers were familiar. So, I think his association with Motown was for several years. I think his name being left off The Elgins' record was a random oversight, which had been included on The Supreme's release, and would be corrected on Chris Clark's (notwithstanding the misspelling). Why is it that Americans can't seem to pronounce the "n" in the name "Thornton"??? In my 70+ years I have met, read about or heard of literally hundreds of people with the name "ThorNton", but not one single person with the name "Thorton".

So, with Thornton being on the inside at Motown, The Wonderettes could have been signed by Motown. They certainly were talented enough. But, They would have trouble beating out The Velvelettes for getting good material, getting releases, and having their records plugged, let alone competing with The Supremes, Marvelettes, and Martha and The Vandellas.

Yes.

I can't tell who they are or aren't from the voices, but it stands to reason that the might well be, as Johnnie Mae ran all sessions of production of this song, and because she listed them on HER version, we know they sang backgrounds to the backing track. Hard to believe it was missed when the recording was delivered for mastering. Maybe the tapes got switched into the cans of the opposite versions?