Robbk

There might be, and also may not be. Same for "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet". Both songs on the Tollie release could have been the same exact recordings that Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson sent to Detroit as the demos for use as guides for the eventual Motown release artists. The songs were not recorded by Motown on one of their own artists, and therefore, not had a release within the the time specified in the producer's contract, so release rights reverted back to Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson. So those two leased the 2 recordings to VJ's Tollie Records. Motown still kept the tapes because Jobete Music owned the publishing rights, and Motown still had the rights to release a version on their own artist, they only lost the EXCLUSIVE FIRST rights to release. BOTH Marc Gordon/Frank Wilson AND Motown still had the rights to release records using those recordings in perpetuity after that, until some change in ownership would arise. Sometimes the recordings made for Jobete's proof of song ownership, and those made for singing guides for the eventual Motown commercial singers had complete (finished) instrumental track mixes, and sometimes not. When they weren't finished, they would differ from the "version" on the released non-Motown issued record. When the non-Motown record's instrumental was much more complete than the "proof of ownership" tape or acetate in The Motown vaults for a song that wasn't recorded on a Motown artist in a finished version, we can assume that it was re-recorded by the independent producers, or finishing tracks were added by them, later, after Motown's right of first issue deadline had passed. Sometimes, however, when the "proof of ownership or singer guide version was finished enough, the producer decided to release it as is, on his own label, or lease it, as is, to an existing record company. I'm still waiting for a mid-1964 Detroit-recorded version of "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" by Mary Wells, backed by The Funk Brothers and Motown Band to be found among the vaulted material! What was Mary Wells' loss was Mary Love's gain, and probably got her her work With Motown in The 1970s, after they moved to L.A. The "Tollie" recording may be the same recording as "Motown's " (or should I say, Jobete's). As I've written many times before, during 1963-66, Jobete Music Co. Los Angeles was operated by Hal Davis and Marc Gordon. They were employees of Jobete Music, but their services were NOT EXCLUSIVE to Motown. Under their contracts (Frank Wilson, and the other Jobete L.A producers were also included in this), they wrote songs, and produced recordings for proof of ownership, and as guides for final recording singers). Level 1) They could still produce recordings to NOT even be offered to Jobete, and could be produced by them on non-Motown artists, and released on their own non-Motown labels. Level 2) They could record songs offerred to Jobete Music, that Jobete might turn down, and not purchase. THAT is what I would call "NO interest". An example of that scenario is "The Things You Do To Me" by The Vows. Of course, Hal Davis and Marc Gordon would then publish through their own, Finesse Music, and release on their own label, or lease to someone else's label. The Frank Wilson Tollie record is NOT that situation, but rather Level 3), the case in which Jobete Music WAS interested, and bought the song, and published it. Clearly Jobete Music had interest in those songs they purchased, but not enough compared to the hundreds of other songs they published during the 6 to 12 months after their purchase, to record them by one of Motown's artists. There was a time period after the purchase that Motown had to record a given songwithin, or rights to release the first version would revert back to the L.A. Jobete producer. If I remember correctly, Motown had to record the song on one of their artists within 6 months after the purchase, or the producer could then release it. IF Motown recorded it on one of their artists, I believe they had 3(or, possibly 6) more months to release the record, or then, the rights of first release would be over, and the producer would have the rights. I believe the Barbara Randolph version of "I'm So Thankful" fit that scenario. Jobete bought the song, and had Randolph record it. But it wasn't released in the 3 months after, so there were no "first rights" any longer, and the producers were free to lease the productions to Modern Records, and I also think Modern paid Davis/Gordon to produce the final recordings on The Ikettes' session.

I guess that "Our Love...." was written by George Clinton's crew for J.J. Barnes, in that twilight period when Solid Hitbound had just started Revilot Records, but not yet started their distributing; and J.J. Barnes was still under contract with Wingate's Ric-Tic Records, and he recorded it before moving over to Solid Hitbound's labels (Revilot/Groovesville). However, as a Solid Hitbound Production, one would think that the publishing would have been split in half by Myto and Revilot Music. But, there is no way of knowing what the details were. music publishing rights were just one of several different ways to share profits or get money to various project members for their contributions (financial, creative or production tasks) to getting the record made. For some reason, Davis and Taylor agreed with Ed and JoAnne that Myto would get ALL the music publishing rights for this song on this pressing regardless of the fact that Golden World was no longer distributing Davis' and Taylor's releases. Maybe they still owed Wingate money for other services previously rendered?

Don Davis started working for Ed Wingate's Golden World/Ric-Tic Records in 1965, before he started his patnership with LeBaron Taylor in Solid Hitbound Productions. He had started his own Groovesville Records in 1963. When he started working for Wingate, he had Wingate's Golden World distribute his Groovesville records. In that deal, Wingate's Myto Music got to split the publishing of Groovesville's songs distributed by Golden World, at half and half, between Davis' Groovesville, and Wingate's and Joanne Bratton's Myto Music. The Wingate-distributed Groovesville Records were red and white. When they changed to turquoise blue, that signified that that was after Davis left Golden World, and had set up his partnership with LeBaron Taylor in Solid Hitbound Records, along with Revilot Records, and Solid Hitbound started their own distribution company, which also now distributed Davis' Groovesville Records. So, the publishing on all Don Davis' productions now reverted back to 100% Groovesville Music. So, they had been "Myto Music songs" only during the period Golden World distributed the Groovesville records. I wasn't aware that "Our Love Is In The Pocket" was ever published by Myto Music. If it was, it was probably only for a short overlap period, when Davis and Taylor had already started Revilot Records, and while they still had Wingate's Golden World distributing their Groovesville records. and the earliest of the Revilot and Solid Hit releases were then also distributed by Wingate, before Solid Hitbound started operating their own distribution company. Then Myto would still have been splitting the publishing rights with Groovesville Music, and would split with JanSurMar, Thermo, Eddobar, and any publisher Solid Hitbound was using, for those first few releases. Davis and Taylor started operating on productions while Davis was working with Wingate, before they started the 2 new record labels, and they also leased some of their productions to major labels. They also operated their new labels a short time before starting their own distribution company, which not only distributed Revilot, Solid Hit and Groovesville, but also Clay McMurray's Red Cap, LaSalle. Brute, and several others (some of which had previously been distribute by Wingate).

Here's another example, and it's a label that had very few releases, and these 2 were just a few months from each other, so how did they forget that number was already used???? "Blind Girl" by The Del-Tours, and "Black Girl" by The Desires, on Mel London's Starville Records, from 1967. There are many, many more that haven't been listed on this thread. I just can't remember them, offhand. I only remembered this one because The Del-Tours record was brought up on another thread.

I always heard they were a New York/Northern New Jersey Metro group. They were definitely not The Chicago group who recorded for Beltone and Okeh. There was also a male Opals group during the early 1950s, who recorded for Apollo Records, and a couple other New York labels.

"Blind Girl" got a few stray plays as a new "test record", but never got in even an infrequent rotation, as far as I remember. "Black Girl" by The Desires was played a lot more, and sold decently locally and was stocked in a lot more shops. I saw The Del-Tours in a shop and played it, and then bought it. Incidentally, this is an example for the "Releases With The Same Catalogue Number" thread, both being Starville 1206. Amanda Love's "I Don't Mind" was played more, too.

This is the PR announcement by Talty & Jan's publicist. They were worried about problems with Chess because of the clause in the contract that read "No songs written by Curtis Mayfield will be accepted for production". I'm sure they still felt safe in getting this released by another label because it was recorded previous to her signing her artist contract with Chess. They just leased that old Spring 1963 recording to Stacy in November 1963, they didn't have Stacy record it that late in the year. The same was true of their releasing "Behind The Curtains" on Night Owl. Jan and Don were safe (probably told to them by their lawyer, who advised they add the contract comment in their press release. Clearly she was okay contractwise, as Chess released "I'm Over You" soon after "These Tears" flopped, and several other singles, one-by-one at regular intervals, for 2 years after. There was no long gap, which could account for her leaving Chess after fulfilling her contract with "These Tears", and then she and Don having a rapprochement with Davis or Phil Chess, and signing a 2nd contract. Jan apparently had an exclusive artist contract with Chess, which didn't allow her to do any recording for any other record company while she was under contract to Chess. She didn't, as although the Hootenanny and Night Owl releases occurred while she was under contract to Chess, the recordings were made under the auspices of, and paid for, by different producers, and those owners of those productions had the rights to commercial use of those products, and the right to release new records with those recordings, whenever they wanted to do so. The add-on in the press release was only to let Chess know that Talty and Jan knew their contract obligations and that they weren't breaking them. This was because Chess didn't know whether or not those 2 releases were recorded before she signed her contract. If Billy Davis were to bring up his irritation about the 2 releases, Don could show the recording studio receipt, showing the individual songs. He had to keep those for his Formal Records' taxes. Jan Bradley was still a Don Talty (Formal) artist - she was on lease to Chess Records, just like Marv Johnson was a Berry Gordy artist while under contract with UA.

Although this was released after "Mama Didn't Lie" in Dec. 1963,I believe it was recorded along with other cuts done with Mayfield, BEFORE "Mama Didn't Lie" became a smash hit, and that was before Chess offered a contract to Jan. The Night Owl record's cuts were also produced by Talty with Mayfield, BEFORE Chess leased "Mama Didn't Lie". Her new contract with Chess stated that she couldn't work with Curtis any more. That didn't prevent Don Talty from leasing cuts he made on her working with Curtis and The Impressions before she signed with Chess. The Hootenanny(Stacy) release was cut before - so, no possible problem. The lease to Night Owl (probably owned by Talty, Jan, and Curtis) was, indeed released later than "Mama didn't Lie", but Chess had no claim on it, and couldn't legally prevent the 3 of them from releasing it, because it belonged solely to them, and was recorded BEFORE Chess signed Jan. Talty had 3 releases on Jan from the recordings with Curtis on his own Formal Records, all before Chess leased "Mama Didn't Lie", after its local success on its Formal Records release, and after she was offered the Chess contract, Talty released the Night Owl record, and leased the Christmas record to Stacy/Hootenanny. On Hindsight, Talty and Jan should have not had her sign with Chess, and gone with Mayfield and his crew at ABC IF Chess and Mayfield had the falling out before Chess offered her the artist contract, while her Formal record was just being leased by Chess. I think that was the case, because the disagreement probably came about when Curtis told Chess what cut he wanted for himself out of Chess' ongoing deal with the 3 of them. Jan would have been best off by going with Curtis to ABC, where he worked with Johhny Pate as arranger, and sometimes also as producer, and there was a "Curtom" production crew, including The Impressions as back-ups, Curtis on guitar, Curtis, Johnny Jones, Jerry Butler, Billy Butler, and Major Lance as sometimes songwriters. That group probably would have gotten her more hits than Talty did for Chess, and also more than The Chess writers and arrangers did. However, it could be that the disagreement caused by Mayfield's discontent came AFTER Jan and Talty signed, and then Chess gave them an ultimatum that she'd have to quit working with Mayfield, or they would tear up the contract. They had lots of money and could hire much better lawyers than Talty could. So, they would be afraid to tear up the contract themselves, for fear of losing a big lawsuit. Besides, Talty had gotten her an artist contract with a big, successful label, and he had reason to believe that Billy Davis and his production crew could do just as well for her as Mayfield/Pate could do for her at ABC. But this whole situation just points out how very important the quality of songwriting and production values are to even an excellent singer; and also shows how important having a producer who has a good rapport with the singer, and also knows how to get the most from that singer, and has the singer's best interest at heart (not just for his or her own success). Such a situation can make the difference between the singer making an entire life's career out of singing, or only doing it for a few years and being forced to get a common "day job". A couple years later, Jan was out of The Business.

Jan wrote this completely on her own based on trying to copy Curtis Mayfield's style as best she could, because she got her only hit with his song, and she didn't like Talty's songwriting, and Chess had a disagreement with Curtis on producer credits and pay, and told Talty and Jan to not use Mayfield any more. She did such a great job emulating his style that I wish she'd have written a bunch more like that, as the rest of her Chess material was lousy. At least she got Mayfield's other songs written for her out on Talty's Formal Records, and "Behind The Curtains" out on Night Owl Records. Those were all great, having The Impressions backing her.

I bought mine in Chicago during the mid 1960s when it was out, so if anyone wants the runout markings let me know.

Not only that, but the print is weak and uneven, like it was taken from a photocopy.

I love Ashford and Simpson songs; but I love Ashford, Simpson & Armstead songs even more. Ashford & Simpson were a little towards The Brill Building sound. Jo added a more Jazzy & Bluesy feel that made the overall sound more full, rich, and deep. That trio wrote several of my all-time favourite hits - many of which didn't hit it big on the pop charts because they were "too darned Soulful"!

I agree. At least, that's what I heard. Interesting that Loleatta Holloway's version, although recorded in Atlanta, some ex Detroiters worked on it - Floyd Smith, and engineer Milan Bogden.

I can remember when the only people who even knew that record existed were those of us who had seen it in The Motown Record File.

"She can be covered with a rash, 'Long as she's got some cash!" - The Contours - "First I Look At The Purse" Gordy Records 1964 "Without her love I couldn't exist..... I'd e-end my life by cut my-y wrist!" - Gino Washington (backed by the uncredited Rochelles) - "Puppet On A String" Correc-Tone Records original version - 1962 "Well, my heart started beatin' fast as it could be-eat, I stood there shakin' from my head to my feet, I didn't know just what I wanted to do, When a Monster said, 'Which way is Fifth Avenue?' I hollered, 'Save me-e-e!'.... 'Save me!' I hollered, 'Save me-e-e!'..... 'Sa-ave me!' I hollered, 'Save me!', I hollered 'Save me! From the people from another world!' " The Jive Five "People From Another World" - Beltone Records 1962 I was standin', I was standin' on th' cor-ner, wit' my reefers in mah han' up step' dee sar-gent.... took dee reefers out mah han' "Champion" Jack DuPree - "Junker's Blues" - Okeh Records 1940

Good point. It's NOT strange, after all. Apparently I made an incorrect assumption about the dating of the 2 Motown purchases related to that of the Wingate-Griffin co-productions and Wingate's use of "Myto Music" and "Ric-Tic Music". Now it is clear that "Myto Music" was indeed dissolved, upon the first, 1966 Motown buyout, because the Wingate-Griffin co-productions took place in early 1966, BEFORE Motown's later 1966 buyout of Golden World Records, Golden World Sound Studio, and the Myto Music catalogue. At that time, Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton continued operating Ric-Tic Records, starting with Ric-Tic 141, operating out of their house, and using United Sound Studios. With Myto Music gone, they revived an already existing (but dormant since 1963) music publishing company (Ric-Tic Music) they had used in 1962-63 during their early years of operating Golden World and Ric-Tic Records, when they recorded in New York, and used New York songwriters. When they stopped operation of Ric-Tic Records in 1968, and sold off the contracts with a few more artists, and sold off the Ric-Tic Music catalogue (up to that point) and related master tapes, they DID NOT sell the name "Ric Tic Music", so they could use it again, because its former product now was instantly transferred to the Jobete Music Catalogue. So, that must be why Ed and JoAnne could again use Ric-Tic Music to publish their 1971 Golden World record.

All 3 issues were recorded, pressed up, and had been sold from commercial outlets before the changeover. Ric-Tic's "I Love You Madly", by The Fantastic Four, was selling well in the middle of its run, when the Motown 2nd Wingate (Ric-Tic) buyout/purchase and transfer was being completed. As soon as the takeover was completed, Motown pressed up the charted record's next press run on its own Soul label, as Ric-Tic had been shut down. Credits for its publishing had been changed to Jobete Music (from Myto), as the rights to that song's publishing were part of the existing Myto Music catalogue purchase. So, all those Myto Music songs existing at the time of Motown's buyout, immediately became published by Motown's Jobete Music. However, Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton were not out of the music business. They had some productions after that, including projects done together with Herman Griffin (Diane Lewis on Wand Records, The Players on Columbia), both of which listed their Myto Music (which hadn't been purchased by Motown in the buyout, - only the songs existing at that time). In 1971, The Wingates released a Golden World record "Stompin' Crazy Legs" by The Modern Times, which was also published by a Wingate publisher, Ric-Tic Music.

Yes. Richard worked also with Leo Austell, who worked on lot together on those small Chicago labels related to Renee(Sta-Set, Conduc, Lu-Cee, and Mar-Jan). Lamaja Music was Austell's. Jerhart was Bob Lee's. I think Austell was the A&R man, and managing partner (head producer and also arranger for most of them, partnering with financiers, or Lee in most. Where he and Lee both were involved, they shared producing duties. Goldsby (Ricky Gee) recorded for all those except Lu-Cee. Ruth Moore's Vick, and Lee's Hawk Records were related, as well.

As far as I remember, "Ricky Gee" was Richard Goldsby (family originally related to the family with the surname, Goolsby), and was an African-American. I remember seeing a few photos of him. He was Bob Lee's partner in a couple tiny Chicago record labels, and a songwriter, and helped Lee with production. As far as the versions, I bought the yellow Conduc issue, which was the common one, which was pretty pervasive locally. I don't remember seeing the red one in stores. So, my guess is that the red version might have been the original version, which didn't sell, or Lee couldn't get DJs to play, so he recorded a different version, or changed the speed to make it more marketable, based on people's reaction to the first version.

And Ike was born in 1927.

Yes, Eddie was the oldest, and he was a Jazz/Swing combo leader, musician, and vocalist, as well.

I never knew he was Nat's, Eddie's, and Ike's brother. His voice has much less family resemblance than the other three, although it does have some level of their smoothness and familial tone.

"Society Hill" is an American metaphor for the place where the rich (high-falutin') people live. That song is more likely to be about Pittsburgh than Philadelphia. It's not about Chicago because that city is perfectly flat. Not even a mole hill there. In Chicago, the singer would be talking about "the billionaires on Lake Shore Drive".

It wasn't a dead rare record. But, it certainly wasn't the easiest to find, even back when it was out.

The pacquet's white label has BOTH "Hit and Run" AND "You'd Better Wake Up" written twice. "Hit and Run" is listed as by Gwen Owens twice (i.e. 2 different versions), and "You'd Better Wake Up" has Gwen Owens listed for the first version, and Telma (Hopkins) as the possible artist for the second version. The second one follows the colon, just as Gwen Owens does. Therefore, it must be a guess as to who the artist is, rather than the record company recipient of the recording. I doubt that that was a misspelling of "Thelma" standing for Thelma Records.