Robbk

Cody recorded for a few Cincinnati labels before taking ex-Cincinnatian, Herman Griffin's advice to go to Detroit to look for singing work. This looks like a King Records Plant pressing from Cincinnati, and, thus, a Cincinnati label, as opposed to a Detroit label.I can't remember Griffin's quote on this, but I heard what record companies he visited first in Detroit, and Universe wasn't one of them. And I've never heard of "Universe" as a Detroit label. Unfortunately, I can't read the credits, so I can't tell if the publisher is a known Detroit, or if any of the people are known Detroiters. But I doubt that. That looks like a King small, local label pressing to me.

Markie was a Chicago label. It was a sister label (subsidiary) of Ran-Dee Records. They both used Massa Music as their in-house publisher. Despite Andre Williams (A Chicagoan who spent his career commuting between (bouncing between) Chicago and Detroit), being its main producer, and Jimmy Holland, and his group (The Four Hollidays/Four Holidays/Hollidays/Holidays) all originally being Detroiters,( they also lived in Chicago, especially during their time on Mar-Kie and Mercury), the label was NOT a Detroit label.

Twirl was owned by Harry Balk and Irv Mikhanic. They commuted from Detroit to New York, and did a lot of recording of their Embee Productions there, especially their production deal with New York's Big Top Records, and Jubilee Records, so they opened an office for Embee Productions, and Twirl Records, and Twirl's subsidiary, Storm Records. But Twirl always had an office with Embee's office in Detroit. It was always a Detroit label, throughout its run.

Sew City was a New York label with nothing to do with Motown. Chisa was an L.A. label, distributed by Motown, but not a Motown subsidiary, just like Kudu Records (distributed only). That was a different situation from Harry Balk's Inferno Records, which became a half-Motown-owned subsidiary when Balk joined Motown to run its Rare Earth label.

Thinking more about the songs that "Dorothy Pierce" was credited for having written, they sound a lot more like songs Brian Holland wrote solo, or together with Robert Bateman and/or Freddie Gorman, than H-D-H songs. Listen to "Same As Before" by Orthea Barnes. Same goes for the songs for The Sty-Letts. I'm wondering if "Dorothy Pierce" was really just Brian, alone, or Brian and Eddie, without Lamont? The rumour was, and also what Bateman described years later, that it was only Brian and Eddie that agreed to leave Motown to run Correc-Tone Records in early 1962. That was before they teamed up with Lamont. They might, or might not have brought him into their moonlighting venture, which was completely over by late 1963, BEFORE they started getting their big hits.

During a low cash period for Wilbur Golden, Robert Bateman had no money to press up records of Marva Josie's 2 already completed recordings, and Correc-Tone's secretary, Laura Johnson's 2 cuts, and The Donays' 2 cuts. So, on a trip to New York, to get pressing/distribution deals for them, Batemen made such deals for those 3 records with Bob Shad's Brent/Time Records. He also placed The Pyramids' 2nd release with VJ, Fred Bridges' "Baby Don't You Weep" with New York's tiny Indy label, Versatile Records, and a distribution deal for Herman Griffin's-produced Correc-Tone partnership subsidiary, Hit Records Moments' "Don't Take Your Love From Me". Then, Correc-Tone got more money, and were able to press up their very late 1962 issues, and most of their 1963 issues, but did have to farm out a few of their less important new recordings and joint ventures, and Bateman also started independent productions in New York, including Wilson Pickett's recordings that went to Lloyd Price's Double-L Records, and their distributor Liberty, but also farmed out recordings he had made for Correc-Tone on Herman Griffin and Buddy Lamp to Double-L. He also leased Marva Josie's 2nd pair of recordings to Sahara Records, an IPG-distributed label, probably representing a joint venture of Bateman with Morty Wilson, Al Cleveland and Arthur Crier. He also farmed out the instrumental, Red Pepper (theme song of the Prince-Adams Record shop, and a Detroit Soul DJ?) on Prince-Adams Records(distributed by Jubilee) (which had been produced by Sam Motley, and arranged and played by Rudy Robinson, and recorded at Correc-Tone as a joint venture with Correc-Tone Records). Bateman also got a distribution deal for Correc-Tone with Atlantic Records, which picked up Theresa Lindsey's "Sugar Mountain", The Moments' Hit Productions cuts (originally on Correc-Tone's Hit Records), and a few others. So, because of Golden's uneven cash flow, Correc-Tone Records had a hodge Podge of releases issued on their own Correc-Tone, SonBert, and Hit/Hit Productions labels, mixed in sporadically, with recordings leased to other labels, or joint ventured with other producers and placed on new labels started just for those specific issues.

Yes, De La Rose was, no doubt, the "Money Partner", and CEO, while, Meehan was the A&R Man and chief producer, and may or may not have been a co-owner. But that seems to only be true for Hi-Lite and its subsidiary, REM (whose "M" probably stands for Meehan). Meehan also seems to have been a principal in the related Oncore Records, which also recorded Gwen Owens, and used Hi-Lites' Hildale Music as its publisher. But Pillar Records used only Dorothy Pierce's Vigay Music. So, I'm guessing that if De La Rose or De La Rose/Meehan were co-owners, "Dorothy Pierce" (or H-D-H) owned more of THAT company than their co-owners, otherwise Hildale Music would have shared their publishing rights, and Meehan would probably also gotten his name on the Sty-letts' record as co-producer or executive producer.

I have heard for a long time, that "Dorothy Pierce", Brian Holland's mother-in-law's name, was used by H-D-H to hide the fact that they were moonlighting at Hi-Lite/REM/Pillar Records. Sal Prado, one of the 2 lead singers of Hi-Lite's Seminoles, among others, told me that. It was surprising to me, given that most of the singers on those labels were Caucasians, and, the parent label, Hi-Lite had NO African-American artists, and whose main producer (other than, perhaps (whoever "Dorothy" was), was C&W producer/songwriter, Pat Meehan, who produced and managed Rock-a-Billy singer, Johnny Powers, and may also have been a part owner of that label. Motowners, Joe Hunter and Dale Warren worked for these labels(as songwriters and arrangers). But they didn't have exclusive contracts with Motown, like HDH were given in early 1962, to keep them from leaving to join Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records. Dorothy Pierce's name started appearing on Hi-Lite's records' labels in mid 1962. I assume that the Motown connection with Hi-Lite was either Johnny Powers, as his manager seemed to be A&R man with Hi-Lite, or Motown's band leader, Joe Hunter, who was already working with them (and may have met Meehan through Powers). Come to think of it, "Dorothy Pierce" also wrote a couple songs for Joe Hunter's and Freddy Brown's Mickay's Records' Orthea Barnes release, with publishing shared by Brown & Hunter's BroHun Music and "Dorothy's" Vijay(AKA Vigay)Music. So, it ts very possible that Hunter, who NEVER wanted to sign any exclusive contract with Motown because he always had wanted to continue taking other gigs from his old pre-Motown clients as well as new ones, and to operate his own production company with Freddy Brown, was tipped off, in spring, 1962, by Motowner, Johnny Powers, that his manager, Pat Meehan at Hi-Lite, was looking for songwriters,arrangers and musicians to work for his label. Then Hunter, knowing that Dale Warren was looking for outside work, brought him in. Soon after, when he heard that The Holland Brothers, who had agreed to leave Motown for Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records because they wanted more money than Berry was paying, but were convinced by Berry to stay, brought them to his own Mickay's Records for a little extra money for them, and soon after, brought them to Meehan's Hi-Lite/REM Records. Hi-Lite Records had The Seminoles (Sal Prado's group), The Elites (Caucasian Pop Girls group-whose lead singer, Patti Gilson, sang on a Motownish 2-sided record on Ed Wingate's Golden World Records), Tommy Frontera, who was a Doo-Wop singer, who also sang a Blue-eyed Motownish song "You're My Leading Lady", written by "Dorothy Pierce", and also recorded for Mike Theodore on Palmer Records, and Kris Peterson (Blue-Eyed Detroit Soul singer). REM Records, Hi-Lite's main subsidiary, in addition to having Tommy Frontera, had Sandy & The Sty-letts, an African-American Girls Group, who had Dorothy Pierce as a writer and producer on all their songs on both REM and Pillar Records, and Gwen Owens(interestingly produced and written by Meehan and his crew, rather than "Dorothy Pierce"), and Pillar Records (which may have been a "Dorothy Pierce" co-owned an operated subsidiary of Hi-Lite Records, as Pierce was involved in every Sty-letts' cut on the label, and I've seen no other releases on that label, and the music publisher used was NOT Hi-Lite's Hildale Music, unlike all the Hi-Lite and REM releases, but Vigay only, whereas Vigay and Hildale shared publishing on the Sandy & Sty-letts REM release. None of the people who told me that "Dorothy Pierce" was a cover-up name for H-D-H had been Motown insiders; but were old-time Detroiters who knew what was going on, and had connections with the Hi-Lite people, or dealt a lot with Motown. Several people also told me that Brian's mother-in-law NEVER wrote even one song. Motown insiders, close to HDH wouldn't have wanted to "Out" H-D-H as Moonlighters, because they wouldn't want to make it possible that they would no longer be asked or allowed to come to official Motown Reunions. So, I can't say for sure, that I KNOW that Dorothy Pierce's name was used by H-D-H to hide their moonlighting activities. But, I believe that there's a very good chance that that was the situation. In my estimation most of the best written songs for that label group were written by "Dorothy Pierce", and the same is true for best production on those cuts. They probably also used more and better Motown arrangers and musicians on those productions, as well.

What a strange thing for Bob to have said! But I can't ask him what he meant (at least for a few years!) I guess he meant that no other country other than USA, England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland could house the best Soul music record collection in The world. Not Canada, not The Netherlands, not Belgium, not Australia, not Germany, not France..... How could he KNOW that, for sure? Has he met EVERY collector in The World, and seen all of their collections? Or did he mean that there are no other countries in The World that matter??? I suppose it was a joke, but I don't get the humour involved. Strange thing for someone with a surname of Jewish Armenian extraction to say.

Thanks for informing us. I don't recognise any of those names from other records or playing gigs in Detroit. I assume they weren't members of any other groups, or try solo careers on their own. Although the name Leonard Stewart sounds a little familiar. Was your dad in any other group? Who is in which position in the photo?

So, the one on the left, or the one in the centre is Booth. The one on the right doesn't look proud enough to be the lead.

On the You-Tube page where "You Counterfeit Girl" is posted, a poster named Shawn Booth says this was his father's group, and they were a Black trio. It's a LOT easier for me to believe that these guys were a different (African-American) group, rather than Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels taking their old name and moonlighting while under contract to Dynovoice Records, in the late 1960s.

From Soul-Slider: "Is this the Riley's band then? (Basically 'The Detroit Wheels')?" I always thought The Riley's group was an African-American group. Both "You Counterfeit Girl" and "Can I Share Your Love" sound like that. But with a good falsetto, it's tougher to tell than with a tenor lead using a normal voice. Unfortunately, I don't remember seeing any billboards listing The Rivieras that also used a photo of them.

Just because it was distributed by Bell doesn't necessarily mean they distributed it all over USA. As far as I know, some of their distributed records never made it to The Mountain West or West Coast. Furthermore, I don't remember Mr. Bo's Big D record getting played on WVON in Chicago, or seeing it in the shops. I always asked about new Detroit records that came in. Yank, do you remember seeing Mr. Bo in the shops, on Chicago radio lists or being played on the radio? I don't think I ever saw it there. I picked up my copy on a run to Detroit. I DO, however, remember The Tempos, "Don't Leave Me" in a shop in Chicago (That's where I got my first copy), and I think I remember seeing an E.J. and The Echoes on Diamond Jim, in a shop. I think Riley had them driven over to Chicago to sell to shops, like Smokey and The Holland Brothers used to do. I don't remember E.J. getting played on WVON, but I seem to remember The Tempos' getting a few ad-hoc testing plays, but not regular rotation. I imagine Riley's crew also drove records to northwest Ohio (Akron, Dayton, as well as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and probably Cincinnati and Indianapolis,too, and also Milwaukee (while on the Chicago Run). I've seen Riley's/Diamond Jim/Big D records in shops' record bargain bins in most of those cities. Lots of small R&B/Soul labels were able to self-distribute regionally (or, at least within a 200 mile radius). I NEVER found Riley's product in LA or San Francisco Bay Area exactly while it was out, only as used records, at least a few years later, after people from The Detroit Metro Area had a chance to relocate there.

Interesting that the first address on Linwood was in a residential neighbourhood, and so, must have been Riley's house. The Dexter Ave. address was on a major Boulevard, and business street. All the buildings right near that address are now gone, but, as I recall, there were small 1 and 2 story commercial buildings there (small shops and small offices). So, Riley probably had a small office on Dexter for a few years, after his first few Tempos' releases sold reasonably well locally. Their office in L.A. was in the nicest part of The Ghetto in Southwest L.A. (Baldwin Hills), in a strictly residential area. So, I assume that was the home of a friend and business partner of Riley's. I wonder what that guy did for Riley (just a West Coast sales rep.?). I don't recall EVER seeing any records on Riley's labels sold in ANY of the big or small neighbourhood L.A. Ghetto and Hollywood record stores. I don't think they were distributed nationally (many of them not even regionally (Upper Midwest). Most were just Detroit-Southeastern Michigan/Toledo Metro Area. A couple made it to Chicago.

I agree. That's clearly wayyyyy too modern a pressing to have been made in 1963. It has to be a later pressing of a recording never released on vinyl anywhere in time near its recording date. My guess is that it was probably pressed up for The Low Rider scene in Southern California, in the 1990s or early 2000s. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a bootleg. It could have been pressed up by the original owner of the master to meet new demand.

I wonder why I never saw this thread before. I can vouch for the fact that The Rivieras issue came first, and the Linwood address was first, as well. I saw The Rivieras' record several years before The Proto-Jays'. I look forward to reading what Knowledge's father tells us.

That's the rumour that was going around back then and ever since. It was said that some of the gangster's thugs held him by his legs out a window of a high building, just to persuade him that they were serious. We've already had a few threads about this. There was an extensive thread about this on Soulful Detroit Forum.

I just mentioned the possibility. For 60 years we've been wondering who Velvet was. And, if you listen to the mid-tempo version of "Angel", and "When I Needed You" you can hear a certain level of similarity in the voices. Many times singers have been said to have "retired" at a certain point, and then we found later records sung by them, which failed to sell, so no one knew about them, or the artist went by another name, and no one knew about them. Sometimes, a different producer got a hold of old tapes of songs even the artist forgot he or she recorded, and released them under a different artist name, and no one made the connection. The latter can't be the case, as these 2 cuts were NOT Motown recordings, or pre-Correc-Tone recordings. It's too late to ask any ex-Satintones, other than, perhaps Chico Leverett, who was still with us last time I inquired. But he wasn't involved with Correc-Tone (not a member of The Pyramids nor Correc-Tone's songwriting staff, as were Vern Williams, Sammy Mack. Sonny Sanders, and Bateman). But, he might have kept in touch with them, and would know if Ellis worked with that label. I wouldn't bet on it, but I don't rule out the possibility.

Just like I always thought, James Velvet sounds like a Black man to me. Also, he sounds like he could possibly be James Ellis, who might well have been brought to Correc-Tone by his ex-groupmate, Robert Bateman, and his other ex-groupmates, Sonny Sanders, and Sammy Mack wrote these songs, along with Bateman. I remember comparing Jimmy Velvet's and Jimmy Velvit's voices to James', and realising that they were both Caucasian C&W singers, whose voices were very different from his. Unlike Berry Gordy and Ed Wingate, both of whom had a handful of Caucasian singing artists, songwriters, and other workers working for their companies, I don't recall EVEN ONE non-African-American working for Golden's Correc-Tone, unless he had a moonlighting Caucasian musician, or two, of which I am unaware. Here's James on "When I needed You"

Thanks for that information. I've always wondered about that Jimmy Velvet coincidence.

No, Earl Van Dyke wasn't playing piano on "Let Me Be Your Boy".. That was Correc-Tone's on-house pianist/arranger, Willie Harbert. I don't have any confirmation that Martha and The Vandellas were on "Lonely No More", but was told by Ron Murphy that that worked for Freddy Brown on both Mickay's and Ring, as well as on Kable (as The Dell Fi's). I know they were on "Just One More Time". I'll take another listen to "Lonely No More". Afer listening, I can say that Martha and The Vandellas were NOT on "Lonely No More, even as secondary backups. All I hear is a male group. Maybe it was The Legends, who recorded for Mickay's at the time, and made regular appearances at "The Hideout", at that time.

I talked to people from Detroit, connected with Motown, or knowing people there, and being in the business themselves about Correc-Tone, and The Supremes' involvement. Yes, they were moonlighting there in early 1962. Their recordings were made during spring 1962, backing Wilson Pickett, and probably James Velvet (ex-Satintone James Ellis?). I don't believe they were the backing group of Gino Washington on "I'm a Coward" (or any other song of his). I had always heard that The Rochelles (who backed him with credits on his 1964 Amon and Wand releases), who were his friends in high school, and also were in his club review act, backed him whenever he had a female back-up group, at least through 1966. The pre-Supremes, as The Primettes did all their back-up work for Robert West in late 1959 and early 1960, all in Detroit. Everything I read about the late 1962-early 1963 Enrica release said that it was recorded in New York, and James Duddley (AKA Dudley) was at that time, a New York Artist (although originally from The South), and those Primettes were a New York group, with no connection to Detroit, and the name was used without any knowledge of Robert West's Lupine Primettes, whose name was unknown because, even when West had his late release of their Lupine record to take advantage of The Supremes' Motown success, it was only distributed in Michigan and Ohio. No one in New York would have heard of them. I believe that The Enrica record was only listed as being The Pre-Supremes because of the group name, but never seen any evidence that The Detroit group had anything to do with that record. And I can't believe Detroit's Supremes (ex-Primettes) went to New York to record those Enrica cuts, which were certainly recorded after The Supremes were contracted to Motown. That CERTAINLY would have come out some time during the last 55 years. Wilbur Golden saw that saw that Motown was doing well, and that Ed Wingate, who had also entered the business recently, was enjoying running expenses through his record business to his advantage, regardless of whether or not he made money on selling the records, he decided he wanted to enter the record business, too. He secretly approached Brian and Eddie Holland, and Popcorn Wylie, and got them to agree to come work for him at his new record company. Robert Bateman said that Brian and Eddie came to him and told him that Golden offered them a good regular monthly salary to operate his new record company, as songwriters, producers and A&R men, and to also set a a new recording studio. They agreed to jump ship from Motown to work for him. He had asked them to get more of Motown's crew to come and join them at the new label. So Bateman said with that option open to him, he went to Berry Gordy and asked him for a regular salary at the level Golden offered, and Gordy refused. So, Bateman quit right then. When he talked to Golden to take the job, Golden not only offered him the producer's job, he offered him the A&R/Director of Operations job that was supposed to go to Brian. It turned out that a couple days before that, Berry had found out that Brian and Eddie were leaving, and offered them a solid salary and bought them each a Cadillac, to get them to decide to stay with Motown. Bateman was peeved at The Hollands for not informing him of that. But it was too late, he had formally quit. He got the job of handling the setting up the new recording studio and hiring other people. He hired Jazz pianist, Willie Harbert as the main arranger, and brought in his Satintone groupmate, Sonny Sanders as a writer, arranger. And brought in Janie Bradford to moonlight as a songwriter(using her alias as Nikki Todd), and Ron Davis as a writer. He brought The Supremes in as moonlighting background singers. Martha and The Vandellas were already moonlighting for Chief Funk Brother, Joe Hunter, at Freddy Brown's Mikay's Records, and with them for Armen Boladian's Ring Records (really Mickay's masters). He also brought in ex-Satintones, Vern Williams and Sammy Mack as writers and as a new group, The Pyramids, and also brought in William Weatherspoon as a writer, Don Juan Mancha as a writer and producer, and young, aspiring singer/songwriter, Laura Johnson as the company's secretary.

The Netherlands only has 150 people, and only one of them is named "Russell", with no last name? Having a frontal lobotomy is not a good thing for a record dealer to have. The post office in USA should have sent it back to the sender, with a note: "Please list a complete address, when shipping items to countries with more than 14 million people, and where their convention is to use both given and family names! We want to keep decent relationships with cooperative foreign post offices. We also suggest you seek medical help!"