Robbk

From Soul-Slider: "Is this the Riley's band then? (Basically 'The Detroit Wheels')?" I always thought The Riley's group was an African-American group. Both "You Counterfeit Girl" and "Can I Share Your Love" sound like that. But with a good falsetto, it's tougher to tell than with a tenor lead using a normal voice. Unfortunately, I don't remember seeing any billboards listing The Rivieras that also used a photo of them.

Just because it was distributed by Bell doesn't necessarily mean they distributed it all over USA. As far as I know, some of their distributed records never made it to The Mountain West or West Coast. Furthermore, I don't remember Mr. Bo's Big D record getting played on WVON in Chicago, or seeing it in the shops. I always asked about new Detroit records that came in. Yank, do you remember seeing Mr. Bo in the shops, on Chicago radio lists or being played on the radio? I don't think I ever saw it there. I picked up my copy on a run to Detroit. I DO, however, remember The Tempos, "Don't Leave Me" in a shop in Chicago (That's where I got my first copy), and I think I remember seeing an E.J. and The Echoes on Diamond Jim, in a shop. I think Riley had them driven over to Chicago to sell to shops, like Smokey and The Holland Brothers used to do. I don't remember E.J. getting played on WVON, but I seem to remember The Tempos' getting a few ad-hoc testing plays, but not regular rotation. I imagine Riley's crew also drove records to northwest Ohio (Akron, Dayton, as well as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and probably Cincinnati and Indianapolis,too, and also Milwaukee (while on the Chicago Run). I've seen Riley's/Diamond Jim/Big D records in shops' record bargain bins in most of those cities. Lots of small R&B/Soul labels were able to self-distribute regionally (or, at least within a 200 mile radius). I NEVER found Riley's product in LA or San Francisco Bay Area exactly while it was out, only as used records, at least a few years later, after people from The Detroit Metro Area had a chance to relocate there.

Interesting that the first address on Linwood was in a residential neighbourhood, and so, must have been Riley's house. The Dexter Ave. address was on a major Boulevard, and business street. All the buildings right near that address are now gone, but, as I recall, there were small 1 and 2 story commercial buildings there (small shops and small offices). So, Riley probably had a small office on Dexter for a few years, after his first few Tempos' releases sold reasonably well locally. Their office in L.A. was in the nicest part of The Ghetto in Southwest L.A. (Baldwin Hills), in a strictly residential area. So, I assume that was the home of a friend and business partner of Riley's. I wonder what that guy did for Riley (just a West Coast sales rep.?). I don't recall EVER seeing any records on Riley's labels sold in ANY of the big or small neighbourhood L.A. Ghetto and Hollywood record stores. I don't think they were distributed nationally (many of them not even regionally (Upper Midwest). Most were just Detroit-Southeastern Michigan/Toledo Metro Area. A couple made it to Chicago.

I agree. That's clearly wayyyyy too modern a pressing to have been made in 1963. It has to be a later pressing of a recording never released on vinyl anywhere in time near its recording date. My guess is that it was probably pressed up for The Low Rider scene in Southern California, in the 1990s or early 2000s. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a bootleg. It could have been pressed up by the original owner of the master to meet new demand.

I wonder why I never saw this thread before. I can vouch for the fact that The Rivieras issue came first, and the Linwood address was first, as well. I saw The Rivieras' record several years before The Proto-Jays'. I look forward to reading what Knowledge's father tells us.

That's the rumour that was going around back then and ever since. It was said that some of the gangster's thugs held him by his legs out a window of a high building, just to persuade him that they were serious. We've already had a few threads about this. There was an extensive thread about this on Soulful Detroit Forum.

I just mentioned the possibility. For 60 years we've been wondering who Velvet was. And, if you listen to the mid-tempo version of "Angel", and "When I Needed You" you can hear a certain level of similarity in the voices. Many times singers have been said to have "retired" at a certain point, and then we found later records sung by them, which failed to sell, so no one knew about them, or the artist went by another name, and no one knew about them. Sometimes, a different producer got a hold of old tapes of songs even the artist forgot he or she recorded, and released them under a different artist name, and no one made the connection. The latter can't be the case, as these 2 cuts were NOT Motown recordings, or pre-Correc-Tone recordings. It's too late to ask any ex-Satintones, other than, perhaps Chico Leverett, who was still with us last time I inquired. But he wasn't involved with Correc-Tone (not a member of The Pyramids nor Correc-Tone's songwriting staff, as were Vern Williams, Sammy Mack. Sonny Sanders, and Bateman). But, he might have kept in touch with them, and would know if Ellis worked with that label. I wouldn't bet on it, but I don't rule out the possibility.

Just like I always thought, James Velvet sounds like a Black man to me. Also, he sounds like he could possibly be James Ellis, who might well have been brought to Correc-Tone by his ex-groupmate, Robert Bateman, and his other ex-groupmates, Sonny Sanders, and Sammy Mack wrote these songs, along with Bateman. I remember comparing Jimmy Velvet's and Jimmy Velvit's voices to James', and realising that they were both Caucasian C&W singers, whose voices were very different from his. Unlike Berry Gordy and Ed Wingate, both of whom had a handful of Caucasian singing artists, songwriters, and other workers working for their companies, I don't recall EVEN ONE non-African-American working for Golden's Correc-Tone, unless he had a moonlighting Caucasian musician, or two, of which I am unaware. Here's James on "When I needed You"

Thanks for that information. I've always wondered about that Jimmy Velvet coincidence.

No, Earl Van Dyke wasn't playing piano on "Let Me Be Your Boy".. That was Correc-Tone's on-house pianist/arranger, Willie Harbert. I don't have any confirmation that Martha and The Vandellas were on "Lonely No More", but was told by Ron Murphy that that worked for Freddy Brown on both Mickay's and Ring, as well as on Kable (as The Dell Fi's). I know they were on "Just One More Time". I'll take another listen to "Lonely No More". Afer listening, I can say that Martha and The Vandellas were NOT on "Lonely No More, even as secondary backups. All I hear is a male group. Maybe it was The Legends, who recorded for Mickay's at the time, and made regular appearances at "The Hideout", at that time.

I talked to people from Detroit, connected with Motown, or knowing people there, and being in the business themselves about Correc-Tone, and The Supremes' involvement. Yes, they were moonlighting there in early 1962. Their recordings were made during spring 1962, backing Wilson Pickett, and probably James Velvet (ex-Satintone James Ellis?). I don't believe they were the backing group of Gino Washington on "I'm a Coward" (or any other song of his). I had always heard that The Rochelles (who backed him with credits on his 1964 Amon and Wand releases), who were his friends in high school, and also were in his club review act, backed him whenever he had a female back-up group, at least through 1966. The pre-Supremes, as The Primettes did all their back-up work for Robert West in late 1959 and early 1960, all in Detroit. Everything I read about the late 1962-early 1963 Enrica release said that it was recorded in New York, and James Duddley (AKA Dudley) was at that time, a New York Artist (although originally from The South), and those Primettes were a New York group, with no connection to Detroit, and the name was used without any knowledge of Robert West's Lupine Primettes, whose name was unknown because, even when West had his late release of their Lupine record to take advantage of The Supremes' Motown success, it was only distributed in Michigan and Ohio. No one in New York would have heard of them. I believe that The Enrica record was only listed as being The Pre-Supremes because of the group name, but never seen any evidence that The Detroit group had anything to do with that record. And I can't believe Detroit's Supremes (ex-Primettes) went to New York to record those Enrica cuts, which were certainly recorded after The Supremes were contracted to Motown. That CERTAINLY would have come out some time during the last 55 years. Wilbur Golden saw that saw that Motown was doing well, and that Ed Wingate, who had also entered the business recently, was enjoying running expenses through his record business to his advantage, regardless of whether or not he made money on selling the records, he decided he wanted to enter the record business, too. He secretly approached Brian and Eddie Holland, and Popcorn Wylie, and got them to agree to come work for him at his new record company. Robert Bateman said that Brian and Eddie came to him and told him that Golden offered them a good regular monthly salary to operate his new record company, as songwriters, producers and A&R men, and to also set a a new recording studio. They agreed to jump ship from Motown to work for him. He had asked them to get more of Motown's crew to come and join them at the new label. So Bateman said with that option open to him, he went to Berry Gordy and asked him for a regular salary at the level Golden offered, and Gordy refused. So, Bateman quit right then. When he talked to Golden to take the job, Golden not only offered him the producer's job, he offered him the A&R/Director of Operations job that was supposed to go to Brian. It turned out that a couple days before that, Berry had found out that Brian and Eddie were leaving, and offered them a solid salary and bought them each a Cadillac, to get them to decide to stay with Motown. Bateman was peeved at The Hollands for not informing him of that. But it was too late, he had formally quit. He got the job of handling the setting up the new recording studio and hiring other people. He hired Jazz pianist, Willie Harbert as the main arranger, and brought in his Satintone groupmate, Sonny Sanders as a writer, arranger. And brought in Janie Bradford to moonlight as a songwriter(using her alias as Nikki Todd), and Ron Davis as a writer. He brought The Supremes in as moonlighting background singers. Martha and The Vandellas were already moonlighting for Chief Funk Brother, Joe Hunter, at Freddy Brown's Mikay's Records, and with them for Armen Boladian's Ring Records (really Mickay's masters). He also brought in ex-Satintones, Vern Williams and Sammy Mack as writers and as a new group, The Pyramids, and also brought in William Weatherspoon as a writer, Don Juan Mancha as a writer and producer, and young, aspiring singer/songwriter, Laura Johnson as the company's secretary.

The Netherlands only has 150 people, and only one of them is named "Russell", with no last name? Having a frontal lobotomy is not a good thing for a record dealer to have. The post office in USA should have sent it back to the sender, with a note: "Please list a complete address, when shipping items to countries with more than 14 million people, and where their convention is to use both given and family names! We want to keep decent relationships with cooperative foreign post offices. We also suggest you seek medical help!"

Yes,I remember the Hitsville sleeves still in use in 1966, but I also remember the LP sleeves before 1967 (at least starting in 1966. I remember when they were only the navy blue version, with earlier LPs than those on this black one, and for many months before the branched out into the other colours (black, red, green, and brown, in addition to newer blue versions, with newer LPs. I'll see if I can find the earliest blue version. I'm sure there was a fairly long overlap period of the different sleeves, because the distributors got whatever sleeves were used by the pressing plants, and just like record labels, they used whatever stock they had on hand, not throwing away older designs when a new one came out.

I was around in 1961, in The Chicago Metro Area, and periodically looking for records also in Milwaukee and Indianapolis, and on trips to Los Angeles and San Francisco. I saw NO Motown or Tamla company covers of ANY kind until 1963. The Blue Motown covers were first in just 1963. The red ones in both 1963 and 1964. The Black Tamlas were out at the same time as both colours of Motown. The Hitsville covers started in mid 1964, and lasted into 1965. The LP festooned covers started in 1966, and lasted into the late 1960s. I'd bet BigBoppa wasn't even alive back then. The red Motowns were around longer than the blue ones.

The pink Motowns all came in generic brown sleeves. The Blue Motown sleeves didn't start until late 1963, if I remember correctly. But, I admit to keeping my earliest Motowns in them, and then those directly after them in the red Motowns, because, I want all my records in company sleeves, if it is possible. Same goes for my Tamla records. My early Gordy records, Miracle, Mel-O-dy, Soul, and VIP are all in 1962-64 Hitsville covers, until they run out, then in the LP photos on white background design 1965-67 Motown Corp. sleeves, as are the later Motowns and Tamlas.

Is it MY fault that Red Bird made no company sleeves for their US issues? I think US Red Bird records look better in British Rec Bird sleeves than in generic, blank white ones. What is much funnier, is that I keep my 1949-1955 Chicago Al Benson Parrot label records in London Parrot sleeves.

A few more:

I can just hear them singing: "El Señor Creador............... " Is it sung in Spanish or English?

Here are a few more: I wish I had this Revelaires' record to fill my Burgundy sleeve (1954 Detroit R&B Group ballad):

Here are a few more:

I like really hard-to-find sleeves of late 1940s and '50s R&B labels: Too bad I don't have a Ravens' National 45 to put in this one. I did buy Ol' Man River from 1949, but that was only on 78 when I bought it.

DING! DING! DING! - Or should I say, CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! - We have a winner!!!!!!

You never saw one in L.A. or Denver, New York, or Chicago?

I once had a Detroit record on Puff Records, that was found in USA, and taken to The UK. Rod Shard got ahold of it (either it had been found by him or Dave Withers on a USA trip). He sent it to me, in Los Angeles(at that time) in a swap for some records from me. I didn't like it enough for the value I swapped to him, so we re-adjusted the trade, and he replaced it with a record I wanted more. So it was returned to him from L.A by me, either by post, or I hand delivered it to him on my next visit to him (at least once a year, but sometimes 2). So, it started, issued in Detroit, probably was distributed to another US city, then was found by a Brit, and taken to The Greater Manchester Area, then sent to L.A., then sent back to The Greater Manchester Area. I don't know where it went from there (probably another city in The UK). But that's a lot of miles.