Robbk

Yes. That was DaCo's office address. 3942 John R. Street is printed as their address on the Joe Weaver single. It was a major thoroughfare there, with only businesses, not individual, free-standing houses. The Colemans lived at 8040 Dexter. So, DaCo had an office and rehearsing studio there, on John R, but they did all their final recording at United Sound and Specialty, as far as I remember. They moved to a bigger place, in a nicer building, on 6519 Grand River, in early 1964, after they had enough sales coming in to amass some cash over and above their operating costs.

Are you referring to The Superlatives here? Or another Dynamics Records group?

I agree Chalky! If they were really naming the group after Cody, they'd have been named "The Codys" or "Codies". They KNEW that the public would interpret C.O.D.s as Cash on Delivery (ies). Cody was their choreographer, who was important to them, but they weren't known mostly for their dance moves (like The Contours and Vibrations). But as their founder, producer and inspiration was Ace Leon Singleton, it would have been a little insulting to name the group after Cody. Maybe they tested "Singleton" and it wasn't very inspiring towards a name. But "The Three Aces" would have been okay. THEN, they tried "Cody", and the COD in the name led them to "The C.O.D.s". But, in any case, The C.O.D.s implies that, when it comes to singing, this group delivers the goods (cash)! Thus, they found their group name.

Sorry, I'm not a Detroiter, nor a Windsorite, so I didn't know that R&B and Soul Acts sang in Jackson Park on Emancipation Day. I DO know about Windsor being connected to The Greater Detroit Metro Area, and connected to their radio and TV markets (CKLW and all) and music industry because I'm a Canadian. But, I didn't hear Tom mentioning Jackson Park in the MP3. A lot of it sounded muddy. My speakers on my computer in L.A. are not very good, and my hearing isn't all that good, as I am in my mid 70s. Thanks for answering my question. Also, I had never heard that Tom won a talent show in Windsor, nor that Ronnie Abner won one as well.

What does the information about Emancipation Day being celebrated in a park in Windsor have to do with the stated subject of this thread? Did Tom Storm debut "Alone" in an Emancipation Day concert there in 1959?

The Colemans operated a regular recording studio (open to public customers) before they opened the Thelma/GeGe Records office? Or, did he mean that that was DaCo Records/DaCo Productions' office, that also contained a small in-house recording studio (like Fortune's)?

I'm never averse to learning more about The World. But what has this got to do with the price of tea in China???

I put my ear to my speaker, and can hear Norman now. And it's hard for me to believe that Berry Gordy offered Tom Storm a 13-year contract in 1959. Tom states - after explaining that his mother turned Berry's offer down, that "That's when Norman wrote my first record for me, and it said Tom Storm on it." I stick to my guns that that was more likely to have been late 1960 or 1961, and it was likely to have been a studio demo that was never released, rather than a commercially released record. Even if it had been pressed up in a tiny batch of 25 or 50, to use as DJ promotional copies, we would likely have seen one of those by now, with many such records found in boxes of those that were left in pressing plants, or amongst the belongings of the original producers. If it had been pressed up for commercial sale, someone would have learned about it in an interview with Norman. I've read 3 biographies of Norman that state that 18 years old (would have been 1958), he played Tambourine with Popcorn Wylie's Mohawks with Thelma Records. But, Thelma started in 1962. So, as I had surmised, he must have recorded Tom Storm while he was working with Thelma Records' predecessor label, DaCo Records, in late 1960 or 1961, or while he was with Popcorn and The Mohawks when they recorded for Johnnie Mae Matthews' Northern Records in 1960, when he also played the tambourine for The Distants on "Come On". So, Tom Storm must have met The members of The Distants through Norman, or met Norman through The Distants. And he met Eddie Kendricks after he and Paul Williams joined them to form The Temptations. So, I imagine that Whitfield produced Storms solo recordings for the hoped for 45 while he worked for Johnnie May Matthews in early 1960, or for Don Davis and The Colemans while with DaCo in late 1960 or 1961. In either case, I really doubt that a commercial record was pressed up. Maybe Storm was inspired to name his group "The FABULOUS Peps" because of his label-mates, The Fabulous Playboys, at DaCo Records in 1960 and 1961?

It sounded to me like he said "that's when MANNY wrote 'Alone' for me." - that doesn't sound like he was referring to Norman Whitfield. He started off with "Eddie taught me all I know." - could that refer to Eddie Holland? I'd like to hear the part when Tom refers to Norman Whitfield. If Norm wasn't referred to by Tom, then his saying I recorded my first song near the end of The 1950s makes more sense, and allows "Alone" to have actually been recorded in the late 1950s, with a producer other than Whitfield, and on a label other than Thelma or DaCo, and make it more likely that it was actually pressed up. I think we need to hear more of the interview.

I searched BMI.com for "Alone", written by Norman Whitfield, but there were no results. So, the publishing rights weren't renewed. I guess Norman didn't think one of his earliest published song (if not his first), wasn't worth the money to renew its rights. I looked up "Alone", sung by Tom Storm, and there was no entry. I searched 45 Cat for "Alone" by Tom Storm, and there is no entry. No entry for Tom Storm as a solo. I'd like to hear from other Detroit R&B/Soul experts and find out if ANYONE had heard of such a record. Keep in mind that the quote about Storm's interview was that he sang the recording that Whitfield made as a solo artist, and it WAS released, referring to a "Label" that credited him. Maybe Storm just saw a recording studio vinyl demo record that had him listed on it as a single artist, but no commercial record, or even DJ issue was pressed up? Maybe that's why I never saw it or heard of it in my record-scarfing trips to Detroit during 1962-67, and in my visits to other major Detroit collectors, viewing their collections, and never saw it on any of their wants lists, or any label discographies. Maybe it was a DACO demo from 1960, that Don Davis had made at United Sound, and he and The Colemans never did anything with it? I was buying Detroit records in 1959-61 (when the recording was likely made). If it had been released commercially, I should have seen it, heard of it, seen it listed on a discography or wants list. So, I think it was never released. The only big surprises I get are when some early Detroit records produced by one-man operations by a forgotten or unknown producer, that were never distributed to stores, but small batches of them were pressed up (in a vanity move), and kept in the producer's garage, turn up many years later. Norman Whitfield likely was approached many times for any potential find like that. If he had gotten a record like that released, we would all have found out about it long ago, and the record or a new record made from his master tape, would have been played on The NS scene many years ago. Or, if no master tape was around any more, we would have, at least, heard the story of Norman's first 45 production.

I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of a Tom Storm solo record. But, I'm very interested in this, as it would have been a Detroit record. I don't recall any reference to Norman Whitfield recording anyone before The Sonnettes, or working for anyone before Thelma. Maybe he was working for The Colemans' Daco Records and Don Davis in late 1960, and it was released on Daco, or leased to Apollo, but, I never heard of such a record.

I read Dorothy Pierce-Carter's obituary, and discovered that she was a different Dorothy Pierce from Brian's first mother-in-law, and she wasn't his second mother-in-law (THAT would have been too ridiculous of a coincidence!). It's enough of a coincidence that THIS Dorothy Pierce also worked at Motown. So, maybe THIS Dorothy Pierce was the songwriter and Sty-lett's producer, while SHE was working for Motown, but NOT moonlighting, because SHE did not have an exclusive songwriting and record producing contract with Motown. So, Berry would have had no problem with HER writing songs for another record company, as long as she did her work at Motown adequately. So, that odd coincidence may explain why Pierce's songs sound nothing like Brian's writing, and maybe Brian WASN'T moonlighting at all, after Berry gave him and Eddy Cadillacs, and gave them a good, regular salary to not jump over to Golden's Correc-Tone. And the rumour that Brian was moonlighting only came about because people knew that Brian's mother-in-law's name was Dorothy Pierce, but didn't know that a current Motown worker had the same exact two names. But, how does that explain that Sal Prado, a member of The Seminoles, who were around Hi-Lite/Rem's offices and recording sessions, a lot, didn't know that a young woman named Dorothy Pierce, who was too young to be Brian's mother-in-law, was writing songs for their artists, and producing, and attending recording sessions with their artists? And why did he think Brian Holland was working for Meehan, if he wasn't? I really thought it would have been a mistake for Brian to be moonlighting after being bribed by Berry to stay. And I never thought Pierce's writing and production was remotely like his Motown product. So, I half believe this explanation. But it also has its believability problems. I guess we'll never know for sure.

Your wording makes it difficult to understand your point. Are you saying that you think Dorothy Lee Carter was The "Dorothy Pierce" credited on those records; but the Dorothy Pierce who WAS Brian Holland's mother-in-law was NOT the same Dorothy Pierce who was credited on the records? And you think that she wrote the songs and produced the records, and that Brian Holland did not? Remember, we are only telling you what people who had been in the business of making Soul records in Detroit at the time those records were made told us. Sal Prado, a member of The Seminoles, who recorded for Hi-Lite Records from 1962-64(when Dorothy or Brian worked for them), told me that the Dorothy Pierce who wrote and produced those songs and records, was Brian Holland's mother-in-law, and that she never wrote a song, or produced a record, but that Brian used that name as an alias. He was around at Hi-Lite/REM all during that time, as The Seminoles recorded many songs for them. Ron Murphy told me that that was the scuttlebutt at the time. Other people from Detroit's music business at that time, also told me that. And another poster on this thread stated that he also had heard that from people who should have known that. Neither of us are claiming that we know, for a fact, that Brian Holland was moonlighting there at that time. We were just telling you what we were told from people who we think should know about that. To me, most of those songs sound very little like Brian's songwriting. And the records, overall sound is very little like what he was producing at Motown. But, so many people have told me that Brian's wife's mother was named Dorothy Pierce. Everywhere I looked in researching that confirmed that that was, indeed his wife's mother's name. So, I think it would be quite an unlikely coincidence that a DIFFERENT Dorothy Pierce worked at Hi-Lite, Rem, Pillar, and Thelma Records in Detroit, making R&B/Soul records. So, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

I think I've seen another Oncore record as well, but can't remember who it was. I'll post it if I remember.

It seems to me that Sonny remembered correctly. "Jamie" was recorded in late 1961. Robert Bateman didn't even get Correc-Tone's recording studio set up until late February or March 1962. As far as I remember, Wilson Pickett's "Let Me Be Your Boy" was their first recording in early spring 1962, well after Sanders and Bateman had left Motown.

I made a 300 dpi scan for you, which I will provide you in a PM (if that size will be allowed to fit). If not, PM me your E-mail address, and I'll mail it to you. Interesting that our old friend from Soulful Detroit Forum, Kris Peterson, wrote that song.

This makes no sense, because both Brian and Eddie were with Berry Gordy before Tamla even started, recording for him with Robert West's Kudo Records, and Mercury in 1958, and singing for him in The RayBer Voices before Tamla on his House of Beauty cuts with Herman Griffin. Golden didn't start Correc-Tone until early 1962. Both Brian and Eddie were with Tamla in 1959. EVEN if you count Eddie being with UA (as NOT being with Motown- ALL of his UA cuts were produced at Motown), Eddie returned to Motown in early-to-mid 1961, - long before Golden started up Correc-Tone.

I've seen a couple more Raldos, and I think I have one of them, along with The Dawnbreakers. So, Gerald's kids were Ralph and Doris? I'm pretty sure the other Raldo was The Elites. They were also on Pat Meehan's Hi-Lite Records. Patti Gilsen, who sang the great 2-sider Motownish "Don't You Tell A Lie/"Pulling Petals From A Daisy" for Ed Wingate and JoAnn Bratton at Golden World, was their lead singer.

A lot at Motown was going on in 1962. Several Motown people were disgruntled that Berry was "handling" the money of the young singers, others wanted to have more freedom and responsibility in their production jobs, more credit, and better pay, or substantial regular salaries. Popcorn Wylie also jumped to Correc-Tone, and Freddie Gorman almost did. Robert Bateman told the story in different ways many years later, and clearly, he came from a different angle, or people misunderstood him, adding assumptions of their own, or his memory of what went down had become clouded. And Dorothy Pierce had one or two songwriting credits on Thelma Records in late 1963-early 1964 (Orthea Barnes' single was one of them). Was Brian actually still moonlighting that late?

Dorothy Pierce is the name of Brian Holland's mother-in-law. I've been told by several people that Brian and Eddie Holland (and by several others that H-D-H) used that name to cover the fact that they were moonlighting from Motown back then (1962-63). I've never seen any proof of that. But, it would be quite a coincidence for another woman to have had that same name, been an R&B/Soul songwriter and producer in Detroit. I find it interesting because Robert Bateman told the story that he quit Motown in Spring 1962, because Brian and Eddie told him that they were going to jump from Motown to Wilbur Golden's new Correc-Tone Records, and told him they were offered big salaries, and so he decided to go with them, and told Berry he was going to quit if he wouldn't match Golden's offer. Gordy told him he wouldn't match it, so Bateman left. Soon after, he found out that Gordy bought new Cadillacs for Brian and Eddie, and gave them large regular salaries to stay, but it was too late for Bateman to undo his quitting. So, it would be very interesting (and strange) that Brian and Eddie would accept Berry's offer for them to stay, and they would NOT jump over to Correc-Tone, and yet, they would moonlight with Hi-Lite/Rem/Pillar. And it is also interesting that Janie Bradford (at that time, still one of the main songwriters at Motown) would moonlight writing songs for Golden's Correc-Tone. Why would they accept Gordy's raises and decent amount of regular pay, and then do what they had planned with Golden, but with someone else??? I guess they thought Berry would never find out,- but if they worked for Golden, he'd have been looking for that, so they'd get caught. It's all very weird.

Berry was a big Jazz fan, and he frequented The Flame Show Bar and Grill, where all the people in the music industry gathered. Robert West was the biggest record producer in Detroit from 1954-1960. Berry probably met him there. He met Joe Hunter, Dr. Beans Bowles, and probably Carmen Murphy and Joe Von Battle (JVB Record Shop owner and who ran The JVB record label) there. I'm sure he got advice from Mr. West on opening his Jazz record shop. West was his mentor in starting up RayBer Music Company, and Tamla Records. He was also Gwen's mentor when she started up Anna Records.

Was Mrs. Freeburg The Smith Girls' manager? Or did you mean Florence Greenberg, owner of Scepter-Wand? I assume that Stan Green was Flo Greenberg's son, Stanley.

THAT'S IT!!! I Knew I had that record, and it was a Chicago mid '60s song! Thanks!

Don't forget that The Yank is also from Chicago, and his heyday in music there was also the 1960s, so he may well come up with it. I wonder if he's seen this thread?

I recognise the song. I'm sure I bought the record during the mid 1960s in Chicago. But, unfortunately, I can't remember the artist or song title. I think it is "Baby, That's a Sign". or "I Wake Up Crying". Both are titles for which I have probably 2 or 3, or 4 records with that title. If I think of it I'll post a video of the record.