Robbk

Sorry to hear this sad news. Last of The Hamilton Brothers. I start to feel old, remembering that Bobby and Ronny were just kids when I first started listening to music in the early 1950s. They (Bobby and Ronny (Al was too young then) had a group back then called The Nitecaps, and were signed by RCA, and placed on their Groove Records subsidiary. Then they moved to New York. Al followed them, and started writing songs and singing, and got a few local recording deals with local labels. I loved his song, "Am I The Man", he wrote for Jackie Wilson, who all 3 brothers had known from back in Detroit. Al recorded it, himself , and it was picked up by Chess. It was very nice, too. Of course, I love Al's songwriting, producing and singing for Golden World/Ric Tic/Wingate Records. ..

How could they leave off "Take Good Care" by Tony Mason, the 2 Players' cuts, "Just Remember Me" by The Creations, and Emanuel Lasky's "A Letter From Vietnam", and Mike Williams' "Lonely Soldier"? I'm glad, at least, they have my favourite Vietnam song by The Pacesetters.

Fantastic! Those are two great Chicago Sound songs, sung beautifully, and with great arrangements. I'm glad they'll finally be available to the public.

So, it WAS Avant, who was behind all this! And he used a few "test projects" which would have to be leased to existing record labels, to prove to his financial backers, that his production team could be successful in producing commercially viable records, before they would risk financing a full-blown record company recording, pressing up, and releasing records on its very own record label. I wonder if Eddie O'Jay played a part in The O'Jays moving to George Kerr in New York for production, despite the group signing with another manager during a period when O'Jay was no longer allowed to manage them, as he was also an acting DJ, and that was considered a conflict of interest. Later, when O'Jay was determined to be allowed as a DJ to still manage singers because it was determined that radio station program managers (not DJs) would have the actual conflict of interest, it was too late to manage The O'Jays, because they had already signed a contract with a new manager, who was doing well for them. But, O'Jay still remained in contact with them and a good friend. So, I think it's more likely that Terri's previous friendship with The O'Jays while coming up through the ranks as young Cleveland singers, OR, having had mutual managers, brought the connection for The O'Jays with George Kerr, to be sought after as producer for her second record.

Thanks. I figured her second single was out in Oct/Nov. and the entire run's sales trickled into January, and maybe February. In any case, as it appears that Davis' Solid Hit Productions were only a hired production team, and not partners, the time Solid Hitbound shut down their labels doesn't really matter (although I'd like to find out exactly when they shut down. I believe that they were all still operating in April 1967, when Terri's first release came out. I would like to find out who Ms. Bryant's manager and The O'Jays' manager were in early 1967, however, so I can understand how this project came about.

I've read and heard that Don Davis used Pat Lewis to sing the demo for Terri to use as the guide for her version, as Terri was the singer originally chosen for the commercial version. So, as her first Verve Solid Hitbound-related release was leased to MGM's subsidiary, Verve Records, I wondered why it wasn't just released on Revilot, Solid Hit, or Groovesville Records, as the 2 cuts were clearly Solid Hitbound productions, arranged by Mike Terry, using Solid Hitbound's usual studio and musicians in Detroit, and with George McGregor and Leon Ware as the producers. It was a similar situation to Solid Hitbound producing The O'Jay's 1966 Detroit-recorded songs (except that The O'Jays' contracted label, Imperial, was the partner in that case). I assumed that that was because this entire project with Ms. Bryant occurred AFTER Don Davis and LeBaron Taylor had shut down Solid Hitbound Productions, and their Revilot, Solid Hit, and Don's Groovesville Records, and before they ended their partnership, and also well before Davis started up Groove City Records. But, then in seeing that Bryant's second single on Verve's cuts were produced by George Kerr, and arranged by New York's Richard Tee(and thus, seemingly in New York), with no involvement with Davis and Taylor, it is obvious that the financier and instigator of the project were the people behind Sussex Productions. One might think the use of the name Sussex (even at this early year) might have been used because Clarence Avant was the "discoverer" of Terri Bryant, and instigator of the project, and that's why the record was issued by an L.A.-based label. But, this was some years before Avant started Sussex Records, and, I doubted that he could have raised the money, himself at that early time in his career. So, I believed this Sussex Productions was completely unrelated to the later Sussex Records. I never knew the EXACT time frame of these MGM releases (I figured the first in 1967, and the second's run trickling into early 1968). It appears that Bryant's manager got Terri a recording contract with MGM Records first, with options on a second single release. Which is why her records were both released on subsidiary, Verve. But, I wonder who the principals of the project were. Clearly, MGM's project's executive producer first hired Don Davis to record her in Detroit, and then had George Kerr record her in New York. This points toward the Cleveland connection with The O'Jays. Apparently, it was The O'Jays or their manager, who wanted to record in Detroit, to get the advantage of the "hot Detroit Sound" in 1967, rather than their Imperial Records' executive producer. Perhaps Cleveland's Terri Bryant had the same manager as The O'Jays, as they had started operating in their group career, out of Cleveland. Or, they were friendly with Terri, and persuaded her first to go to Detroit to be recorded by Don Davis; and then, after they left Imperial for New York's Bell Records, to record the cuts for her 2nd single, with THEIR new producer, George Kerr, in New York. Her production movements mirroring those of The O'Jays over that period, and the group and Terri's both being from Cleveland, are too much of a coincidence. With producers and cities of recording changing and matching exactly for both, I can only conclude that they had the same manager, or that The O'Jays were her personal advisors, and heavily influenced her executive producer at Verve to follow their advice. Does anyone here know who was behind Sussex Productions, and who Terri's manager was, and who The O'Jay's manager was at the time. I know that Eddie O'Jay was their manager for the early part of their career. I think that it is also interesting that O'Jay was the one who sent The O'Jays to Detroit to record for Don Davis' DACO Records, early in their career in 1961. Maybe he was also Terri's manager, or, at least a prominent Cleveland DJ, interested in her career, and got her together with The O'Jays' management?

Lots of people's opinions differ from this to different degrees with one to several exceptions, but this is precisely my definition of "original pressing".

I've had 136 before. But I can't get to a copy to scan it.

I see! You resent the fact that you made a bad mistake by not keeping all your records in alphabetical order. My problem is a lot worse. I never have put ANY of my records in alphabetical order. They are stored by label and city of label's main headquarters. After almost 70 years of collecting, and moving my residence several times, I can't remember where given individual small labels are located, EVEN when I remember the label's city, when it is a city which takes up a whole wall, like Detroit, Chicago, New York, L.A./S.F., or Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/Ohio.

Can you supply us with a link to the article?

Absolutely! Bateman said EXACTLY that. He only agreed to quit Motown to jump to Golden's new label because he thought The Holland Brothers and Popcorn Wylie, and Herman Griffin would all be there to work with him. He ended up having ALL the responsibilities of building a brand new recording studio, finding and signing artists, assembling regular musicians and just about everything else dumped on him, alone. As it was, he got The Supremes to moonlight singing backup, Sonny Sanders, Vernon Williams, and Sammy Mack, came over from his recently disbanded Satintones, Popcorn Wylie did come (but also worked for many other labels, Griffin did come, but only worked with Correc-Tone for his own label in partnership projects with Correc-Tone, and former Motown songwriter, Don Juan Mancha came over, and worked as a producer and songwriter, and Janie Bradford to moonlight as a Correc-Tone songwriter, under the name of Nikki Todd. They Jazz pianist, Willy Harbert as in-house arranger, and had Wilson Pickett, Gino Washington, Theresa Lindsey, Yvonne Vernee (Allen), Vern Williams' Pyramids, Marva Josie, Herman Griffin, and many other quality singing artists, and Bateman was able to use mainly ex-Motown and moonlighting current Motown musicians. So, qualified personnel wasn't the problem. That was owner, Wilbur Golden's cash-flow problems that caused the label to not have the money to press their own records, or to market their own records, or to keep their own artists from being lured away to more solvent labels. Ed Wingate ended up buying Golden out in 1965, 2 years after Batemen took the remaining master tapes of unreleased Correc-Tone recordings to sell or lease to other companies in lieu of unpaid back salary for much of 2 years. I believe that's how Correc-Tone masters ended up being released on Double-L, Fred Bridges ended up on New York's Versatile Records, etc.

Buddy Lamp was part of Detroiter/NY producer, Robert Bateman's former Correc-Tone's recordings deal with Lloyd Price and Harold Logan's Double-L Records in New York, and, I have heard that Peanut Records was a partnership between Lloyd & Logan, and Lamp. So, the Michigan address may just be Lamp's home address, while Double-L's address was a post office box in the skyscraper building at 1650 Broadway, like so many of New York's small and medium-sized record labels. And Lloyd & Logan shared the publishing on several, if not most, of Lamp's Peanut Records cuts.

Yes, Inferno distributed by Motown was sort of a Motown subsidiary, as it was half-owned by Motown, and the other half of it remained owned by Harry Balk, when Harry came to work for Motown to run their new Rare Earth label. Motown never signed any of Balks' artists after he left. They went with him, as far as I remember. There WERE signed to record for Motown while the partnership was in effect. I'm sure none of you can produce any evidence that The Lollipops, Volumes, or Detroit Wheels recorded for Motown after Balk left in late 1971 or early 1972. Rich 1801 was also a quasi-Motown subsidiary, as it was half owned by Cornell Blakeley's manager, Rev. James Hendrix, and half owned by Berry Gordy, both who had shared in Blakeley's career since his start with Hendrix's Carrie Records (which WAS a Detroit label, despite Hendrix operating it from his former home in South Carolina for a couple years). Sorry if I'm answering questions from a 13-year old thread, which may have been answered years ago. But, somehow, I missed this thread (maybe before I started on this forum?).

Cody recorded for a few Cincinnati labels before taking ex-Cincinnatian, Herman Griffin's advice to go to Detroit to look for singing work. This looks like a King Records Plant pressing from Cincinnati, and, thus, a Cincinnati label, as opposed to a Detroit label.I can't remember Griffin's quote on this, but I heard what record companies he visited first in Detroit, and Universe wasn't one of them. And I've never heard of "Universe" as a Detroit label. Unfortunately, I can't read the credits, so I can't tell if the publisher is a known Detroit, or if any of the people are known Detroiters. But I doubt that. That looks like a King small, local label pressing to me.

Markie was a Chicago label. It was a sister label (subsidiary) of Ran-Dee Records. They both used Massa Music as their in-house publisher. Despite Andre Williams (A Chicagoan who spent his career commuting between (bouncing between) Chicago and Detroit), being its main producer, and Jimmy Holland, and his group (The Four Hollidays/Four Holidays/Hollidays/Holidays) all originally being Detroiters,( they also lived in Chicago, especially during their time on Mar-Kie and Mercury), the label was NOT a Detroit label.

Twirl was owned by Harry Balk and Irv Mikhanic. They commuted from Detroit to New York, and did a lot of recording of their Embee Productions there, especially their production deal with New York's Big Top Records, and Jubilee Records, so they opened an office for Embee Productions, and Twirl Records, and Twirl's subsidiary, Storm Records. But Twirl always had an office with Embee's office in Detroit. It was always a Detroit label, throughout its run.

Sew City was a New York label with nothing to do with Motown. Chisa was an L.A. label, distributed by Motown, but not a Motown subsidiary, just like Kudu Records (distributed only). That was a different situation from Harry Balk's Inferno Records, which became a half-Motown-owned subsidiary when Balk joined Motown to run its Rare Earth label.

Thinking more about the songs that "Dorothy Pierce" was credited for having written, they sound a lot more like songs Brian Holland wrote solo, or together with Robert Bateman and/or Freddie Gorman, than H-D-H songs. Listen to "Same As Before" by Orthea Barnes. Same goes for the songs for The Sty-Letts. I'm wondering if "Dorothy Pierce" was really just Brian, alone, or Brian and Eddie, without Lamont? The rumour was, and also what Bateman described years later, that it was only Brian and Eddie that agreed to leave Motown to run Correc-Tone Records in early 1962. That was before they teamed up with Lamont. They might, or might not have brought him into their moonlighting venture, which was completely over by late 1963, BEFORE they started getting their big hits.

During a low cash period for Wilbur Golden, Robert Bateman had no money to press up records of Marva Josie's 2 already completed recordings, and Correc-Tone's secretary, Laura Johnson's 2 cuts, and The Donays' 2 cuts. So, on a trip to New York, to get pressing/distribution deals for them, Batemen made such deals for those 3 records with Bob Shad's Brent/Time Records. He also placed The Pyramids' 2nd release with VJ, Fred Bridges' "Baby Don't You Weep" with New York's tiny Indy label, Versatile Records, and a distribution deal for Herman Griffin's-produced Correc-Tone partnership subsidiary, Hit Records Moments' "Don't Take Your Love From Me". Then, Correc-Tone got more money, and were able to press up their very late 1962 issues, and most of their 1963 issues, but did have to farm out a few of their less important new recordings and joint ventures, and Bateman also started independent productions in New York, including Wilson Pickett's recordings that went to Lloyd Price's Double-L Records, and their distributor Liberty, but also farmed out recordings he had made for Correc-Tone on Herman Griffin and Buddy Lamp to Double-L. He also leased Marva Josie's 2nd pair of recordings to Sahara Records, an IPG-distributed label, probably representing a joint venture of Bateman with Morty Wilson, Al Cleveland and Arthur Crier. He also farmed out the instrumental, Red Pepper (theme song of the Prince-Adams Record shop, and a Detroit Soul DJ?) on Prince-Adams Records(distributed by Jubilee) (which had been produced by Sam Motley, and arranged and played by Rudy Robinson, and recorded at Correc-Tone as a joint venture with Correc-Tone Records). Bateman also got a distribution deal for Correc-Tone with Atlantic Records, which picked up Theresa Lindsey's "Sugar Mountain", The Moments' Hit Productions cuts (originally on Correc-Tone's Hit Records), and a few others. So, because of Golden's uneven cash flow, Correc-Tone Records had a hodge Podge of releases issued on their own Correc-Tone, SonBert, and Hit/Hit Productions labels, mixed in sporadically, with recordings leased to other labels, or joint ventured with other producers and placed on new labels started just for those specific issues.

Yes, De La Rose was, no doubt, the "Money Partner", and CEO, while, Meehan was the A&R Man and chief producer, and may or may not have been a co-owner. But that seems to only be true for Hi-Lite and its subsidiary, REM (whose "M" probably stands for Meehan). Meehan also seems to have been a principal in the related Oncore Records, which also recorded Gwen Owens, and used Hi-Lites' Hildale Music as its publisher. But Pillar Records used only Dorothy Pierce's Vigay Music. So, I'm guessing that if De La Rose or De La Rose/Meehan were co-owners, "Dorothy Pierce" (or H-D-H) owned more of THAT company than their co-owners, otherwise Hildale Music would have shared their publishing rights, and Meehan would probably also gotten his name on the Sty-letts' record as co-producer or executive producer.

I have heard for a long time, that "Dorothy Pierce", Brian Holland's mother-in-law's name, was used by H-D-H to hide the fact that they were moonlighting at Hi-Lite/REM/Pillar Records. Sal Prado, one of the 2 lead singers of Hi-Lite's Seminoles, among others, told me that. It was surprising to me, given that most of the singers on those labels were Caucasians, and, the parent label, Hi-Lite had NO African-American artists, and whose main producer (other than, perhaps (whoever "Dorothy" was), was C&W producer/songwriter, Pat Meehan, who produced and managed Rock-a-Billy singer, Johnny Powers, and may also have been a part owner of that label. Motowners, Joe Hunter and Dale Warren worked for these labels(as songwriters and arrangers). But they didn't have exclusive contracts with Motown, like HDH were given in early 1962, to keep them from leaving to join Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records. Dorothy Pierce's name started appearing on Hi-Lite's records' labels in mid 1962. I assume that the Motown connection with Hi-Lite was either Johnny Powers, as his manager seemed to be A&R man with Hi-Lite, or Motown's band leader, Joe Hunter, who was already working with them (and may have met Meehan through Powers). Come to think of it, "Dorothy Pierce" also wrote a couple songs for Joe Hunter's and Freddy Brown's Mickay's Records' Orthea Barnes release, with publishing shared by Brown & Hunter's BroHun Music and "Dorothy's" Vijay(AKA Vigay)Music. So, it ts very possible that Hunter, who NEVER wanted to sign any exclusive contract with Motown because he always had wanted to continue taking other gigs from his old pre-Motown clients as well as new ones, and to operate his own production company with Freddy Brown, was tipped off, in spring, 1962, by Motowner, Johnny Powers, that his manager, Pat Meehan at Hi-Lite, was looking for songwriters,arrangers and musicians to work for his label. Then Hunter, knowing that Dale Warren was looking for outside work, brought him in. Soon after, when he heard that The Holland Brothers, who had agreed to leave Motown for Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records because they wanted more money than Berry was paying, but were convinced by Berry to stay, brought them to his own Mickay's Records for a little extra money for them, and soon after, brought them to Meehan's Hi-Lite/REM Records. Hi-Lite Records had The Seminoles (Sal Prado's group), The Elites (Caucasian Pop Girls group-whose lead singer, Patti Gilson, sang on a Motownish 2-sided record on Ed Wingate's Golden World Records), Tommy Frontera, who was a Doo-Wop singer, who also sang a Blue-eyed Motownish song "You're My Leading Lady", written by "Dorothy Pierce", and also recorded for Mike Theodore on Palmer Records, and Kris Peterson (Blue-Eyed Detroit Soul singer). REM Records, Hi-Lite's main subsidiary, in addition to having Tommy Frontera, had Sandy & The Sty-letts, an African-American Girls Group, who had Dorothy Pierce as a writer and producer on all their songs on both REM and Pillar Records, and Gwen Owens(interestingly produced and written by Meehan and his crew, rather than "Dorothy Pierce"), and Pillar Records (which may have been a "Dorothy Pierce" co-owned an operated subsidiary of Hi-Lite Records, as Pierce was involved in every Sty-letts' cut on the label, and I've seen no other releases on that label, and the music publisher used was NOT Hi-Lite's Hildale Music, unlike all the Hi-Lite and REM releases, but Vigay only, whereas Vigay and Hildale shared publishing on the Sandy & Sty-letts REM release. None of the people who told me that "Dorothy Pierce" was a cover-up name for H-D-H had been Motown insiders; but were old-time Detroiters who knew what was going on, and had connections with the Hi-Lite people, or dealt a lot with Motown. Several people also told me that Brian's mother-in-law NEVER wrote even one song. Motown insiders, close to HDH wouldn't have wanted to "Out" H-D-H as Moonlighters, because they wouldn't want to make it possible that they would no longer be asked or allowed to come to official Motown Reunions. So, I can't say for sure, that I KNOW that Dorothy Pierce's name was used by H-D-H to hide their moonlighting activities. But, I believe that there's a very good chance that that was the situation. In my estimation most of the best written songs for that label group were written by "Dorothy Pierce", and the same is true for best production on those cuts. They probably also used more and better Motown arrangers and musicians on those productions, as well.

What a strange thing for Bob to have said! But I can't ask him what he meant (at least for a few years!) I guess he meant that no other country other than USA, England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland could house the best Soul music record collection in The world. Not Canada, not The Netherlands, not Belgium, not Australia, not Germany, not France..... How could he KNOW that, for sure? Has he met EVERY collector in The World, and seen all of their collections? Or did he mean that there are no other countries in The World that matter??? I suppose it was a joke, but I don't get the humour involved. Strange thing for someone with a surname of Jewish Armenian extraction to say.

Thanks for informing us. I don't recognise any of those names from other records or playing gigs in Detroit. I assume they weren't members of any other groups, or try solo careers on their own. Although the name Leonard Stewart sounds a little familiar. Was your dad in any other group? Who is in which position in the photo?

So, the one on the left, or the one in the centre is Booth. The one on the right doesn't look proud enough to be the lead.

On the You-Tube page where "You Counterfeit Girl" is posted, a poster named Shawn Booth says this was his father's group, and they were a Black trio. It's a LOT easier for me to believe that these guys were a different (African-American) group, rather than Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels taking their old name and moonlighting while under contract to Dynovoice Records, in the late 1960s.