Robbk

I'd bet that Renee was first. During my 20 years of record scrounging after its release, I have seen many more of the Renee issue. So, I suspect that the Marc version is rarer. And, remember that I was based out of Chicago when it was released, and saw many more at that time. In fact, I had NEVER seen the Marc issue, until years later, when another collector found one. So, I have reason to believe the Renee version was released first.

ALL the promos of this issue that I've ever seen were styrene. Their print was ALL black, as opposed to both black and red on store stock issues.

I'm sure I have at least one or two John Bennings secular releases on Savoy, as well as on Savoy Gospel series. I have one from 1958, on the maroon 1500 series, titled "Who Cares". I think it is Savoy 1542. I also seem to remember having a couple in the blue-coloured Savoy Gospel Series.

I'd guess they are no relation, as Hillyard is a fairly common name in Canada, as it is in Britain. But I wouldn't rule it out, altogether, as a lot of much stranger coincidences have happened.

That's John alright! Yes. He started having dreadlocks in the late 1970s. And now, I remember that he told me he was from Montreal. But, he had a weird accent. Not a typical Quebecois or Eastern English Canadian accent. If I remember correctly, his parents were originally from England. I guess he moved to Merced for easier access to lower cost marijuana, and a lot lower commercial rental costs to run a store. A commercial property of the same size in Hollywood would probably have cost 20+ times what it would have cost in Merced. He looks like a Middle Easterner! He must have been out a lot in that San Joaquin Valley sun! His skin was a pasty white (like an albino, when he first moved to California from Montreal.

Yes! That's Old John, alright. About 1969 or '70, or so, when I first met him, he told me he was working with Kim Fowley.

Ha! Ha! He was ALWAYS living in his record storage bin. His house was filled to bursting with records. Yes, he did also have a storage building, too for older, more common stock. But, in his home, he always had his "hot" recent and new finds, that he advertised. I wonder why he was in Merced? His records would melt and warp in the summer and autumn heat. He'd have to pay a fortune to air condition his "shed". May Old John rest in peace.

John L. Music was Sport/Sir Rah Records' in-house publisher. Maybe a bootlegger got ahold of some Steve Mancha tapes and some other tapes, and just used the name John L. Brown as a cover, and connecting it to John L. Music looked like a better way to try to tie it to a real entity to better its chances of looking legitimate. I can't imagine Clyde Wilson trying to steal ownership from his friend, Don Davis.

I'm sorry to tell you that Im can't answer any of those questions. I didn't know he had a store. I used to go to his house in Hollywood, to look through his stock of records for sale (just as I did with John Anderson). I don't remember him having a physical commercial "store". And I thought the name of his mail order service was simply his name ("John Hillyard"). I knew him throughout the 1970s, and I believe he came to Los Angeles near the end of the 1960s or near the start of the 1970s. I think he was from The Toronto Area, as he definitely didn't have a Western Canadian accent. I haven't kept up with The record Collectors' scene in L.A. since about 1978, so I didn't know John had died. You mentioned that you know of the circumstances, which makes it seem like he didn't pass on peacefully in his bed at home from natural causes, unless he had some disease like cancer, which brought him an untimely early demise. How did he die?

Joe Hunter had a production agreement With Don Robey's Duke, Peacock, Back Beat, and Sure Shot Records. Hunter ran sessions for Robey both in Detroit and in Houston. Many were with Detroit-based artists, which Robey signed for this deal, and others were his previous signees and long-time artists, who were Texas-based.

Yes, certainly.

Sorry, I am getting more senile than ever. I confused 1940s and '50s Washington D.C. and Toronto, Jazz, Swing, and early R&B band leader and record producer, FRANK Motley, with Detroit's Sam Motley, fusing them into one person, assuming that Frank moved from Toronto to Detroit during the '60s, and started producing Soul records. I wonder if they were related? Motley isn't a very common name. I can't find an emoji for embarrassment. Do we have one?

But, Ida Bennett, who led on the Bon/Reel Ambassadors' cuts may have been J.P. Bennett (JMM's business partner)' daughter. Nice to learn that The Sensation-Ivies were connected to The Ambassadors.

Wow! I've never seen that Ambassadors' record before! It looks like it might sound very good. I'd guess they were the same Ambassadors from Detroit that recorded "Power of Love"/"I Wonder Why" for Johnnie Mae Matthews' Reel Records. Those songs were written by a "G. Yensey (misspell of Yancey), with the usual J.P. Bennett and JMM added). I can't find it on You-Tube. Do you have a digital file of it? If so, can you post it - or, at least a snippet of it? I seem to remember having a couple of labels with the different Yancey names scattered on all their records. Not just JR and Panik, but, I can't remember which others there were. I've seen a C. Yancey, for Clemmer, a D. Clancey, and a G. Clancey. Maybe they owned JR, and possibly, Panik Records?

Sam was much more of a big name, nationally popular band leader than a record producer, despite his prolific production over his many years. He and his band toured The US Chittlin' Circuit (and a little in Canada) for many years, during the late 1940s through much of the 1950s, as one of the most popular R&B dance bands. He was originally from Washington, D.C., and produced records there, but also quite a bit in Detroit, and also some other East Coast cities. And his band was not only the "house band" on his own labels, but also for some labels owned by other people.

I like it. But any Ramsey Lewis fan can tell that's NOT him playing the piano.

Good point! It's obvious that a NS (or at least General Soul) record dealer copied Jobete Music N.Y.'s official demo record label, strictly to use in confusing collectors into thinking post 2000 acetates are 1960s Motown in-house originals, for the express purpose of being able to sell them at high collectors' prices (with the fallback that when they are accused of fraud, they can always claim they found these "records" as is, and simply didn't know whether, or not, they were 1960s originals.

It seems someone either got ahold of a blank Jobete Music Co. New York label, or photocopied one, and placed it on a new acetate made of Brenda Holloway on one side and Jimmy Ruffin on the other. It most likely is a recent concoction, not an original from the 1960s, as Detroit operatives didn't use Jobete N.Y. labels, and didn't make 2-sided acetates, and didn't place 2 different artists on 7 inch acetates (although they DID sometimes have different artists on the larger ones). I can't see a situation in which The New York Jobete Office would have made an acetate pairing two unreleased songs by two different artists who recorded those songs in Detroit.

Motown as a company made different kinds of acetates for different purposes. But, as far as I remember, I can't remember seeing 2 different types of Jobete Music Co. labels, other than 7 inch, 10 inch and 12 inch sizes. It was Motown Record Co. that pressed acetates for demos, that had sound recording co. labels, and other label designs. I don't remember seeing any Jobete Music proof of ownership acetates having been recorded on both sides, nor using the label design on the blurred photo, certainly not on any that were recorded in Detroit. I do remember seeing some acetates with a somewhat similar label design to that shown in the blurred photo, but can't remember if they were Motown Record Corp. or Jobete Music Co. acetates. It may be that Jobete Music, N.Y. used that label for demo acetates. But they wouldn't have been demoing a Brenda Holloway sung song, which was recorded in Detroit. The proof-of-ownership acetates for songs that were written by New York's Jobete Office's writers, with Brenda as the ultimate singer would have been sung by a N.Y. Office singer, like Tamala Lewis, Norma Jenkins, Carol Moore, or the like. A Brenda Holloway acetate for such a song would have been made for a different purpose, such as for use by Quality Control, in Detroit, and would have been pressed at Motown, or in a local, Detroit sound studio - NOT by Jobete Music, N.Y. And it wouldn't have a Jobete Music Co. label on it, but, rather, a Motown Corp. label, non-owner indicated generic typed label, with little information, or an outside sound recording studio label. Jobete N.Y. would have made acetates only of the songs written by their staff for potential use by East Coast non-Motown artists, and only sung by their own staff singers. If I could see the label better, it might trigger my memory for remembering any oddity that wasn't memorable enough for me to recall, at the drop of a hat. I'm a very visual person, and seeing something from many years ago would take me back to that long-past time, just as hearing old sounds, or smelling old smells do. It's been 40+ years since I was at Motown, so, I need a little help for obscure less-memorable memories. If a gun were put to my head and I had to guess correctly, I'd guess that it isn't a true, normal, Jobete Music proof-of-ownership acetate. But, I can't rule it out as a possible legitimate original Motown pressing, until I see it with decent clarity.

This one is really interesting to me because Joe started in the business before most of the rest, so he was around during the pre-Soul R&B heyday.

You're an outdoorsman? Had I known THAT, I'd have invited you on innumerable back-country skiing, peak-climbing, and snow-camping trips!

I got priced out of collecting more than half a life ago!

I think I remember that The Sternphones also back up Gino Washington on a couple of his cuts, when The Rochelles didn't. I think they were with him on one of his Wand 45s, and the other one was The Rochelles (his high school group members).

Not in 1965 or later, which was when Kingfish wrote and recorded "I Won't Hurt You". Don Davis had already left for Golden World, and his own Groovesville Records. Whitfield had left for Motown, and so had assistant producer, Richard Street, and his group, The Majestics. After Davis left, Stribling was Thelma's A&R man, chief producer, and in-house band leader, with other producers, Clay MacMurray, Don Juan Mancha, and James Goffphine, and arrangers, Floyd Jones and Rudy Robinson. By the way..... organist/pianist Rudy Robinson (who worked with Mike Hanks, but also moonlighted at Thelma, as well as many other labels), was also a possible chartwriter for the music. But, actually, the publishing was shared by Thelma, Don Davis' Groovesville Music, and Don Davis' and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions. And it was listed as a Solid Hitbound Production. So, I think Joey brought this song with him from Thelma when he left them in 1966 (probably when Motown bought them out), and before he started working with Diamond Jim Bradley, to his old boss, Don Davis at Solid Hitbound. So Davis might have written the charts (or Steve Mancha or Melvin Davis, both of whom worked with Don at Groovesville Records).

I would guess that he corroberated with someone else at Thelma to get the music written down. It probably wasn't Don Davis, because, I believe Davis had already left Thelma to concentrate on his Groovesville Music and record label, and to work with Ed Wingate's Golden World labels by the time the song was written. It must have been the arranger in Thelma's house band (and that band was probably Stribling's own band he also used for his local gigs). Unfortunately, unlike many record companies, Thelma didn't usually credit the arrangers on their records' labels. The only one I have listed is Floyd Jones. He was probably a musician in Thelma's house band (which was also Fish's gigging band). I wish we could find out which other musicians were in it. I know that James Jamerson was a musician there in 1961 and '62 (and possibly into early '63), before he started working exclusively for Motown. But, he most likely wouldn't have had time to moonlight at Thelma by 1965-66.