Robbk

I searched BMI.com for "Alone", written by Norman Whitfield, but there were no results. So, the publishing rights weren't renewed. I guess Norman didn't think one of his earliest published song (if not his first), wasn't worth the money to renew its rights. I looked up "Alone", sung by Tom Storm, and there was no entry. I searched 45 Cat for "Alone" by Tom Storm, and there is no entry. No entry for Tom Storm as a solo. I'd like to hear from other Detroit R&B/Soul experts and find out if ANYONE had heard of such a record. Keep in mind that the quote about Storm's interview was that he sang the recording that Whitfield made as a solo artist, and it WAS released, referring to a "Label" that credited him. Maybe Storm just saw a recording studio vinyl demo record that had him listed on it as a single artist, but no commercial record, or even DJ issue was pressed up? Maybe that's why I never saw it or heard of it in my record-scarfing trips to Detroit during 1962-67, and in my visits to other major Detroit collectors, viewing their collections, and never saw it on any of their wants lists, or any label discographies. Maybe it was a DACO demo from 1960, that Don Davis had made at United Sound, and he and The Colemans never did anything with it? I was buying Detroit records in 1959-61 (when the recording was likely made). If it had been released commercially, I should have seen it, heard of it, seen it listed on a discography or wants list. So, I think it was never released. The only big surprises I get are when some early Detroit records produced by one-man operations by a forgotten or unknown producer, that were never distributed to stores, but small batches of them were pressed up (in a vanity move), and kept in the producer's garage, turn up many years later. Norman Whitfield likely was approached many times for any potential find like that. If he had gotten a record like that released, we would all have found out about it long ago, and the record or a new record made from his master tape, would have been played on The NS scene many years ago. Or, if no master tape was around any more, we would have, at least, heard the story of Norman's first 45 production.

I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of a Tom Storm solo record. But, I'm very interested in this, as it would have been a Detroit record. I don't recall any reference to Norman Whitfield recording anyone before The Sonnettes, or working for anyone before Thelma. Maybe he was working for The Colemans' Daco Records and Don Davis in late 1960, and it was released on Daco, or leased to Apollo, but, I never heard of such a record.

I read Dorothy Pierce-Carter's obituary, and discovered that she was a different Dorothy Pierce from Brian's first mother-in-law, and she wasn't his second mother-in-law (THAT would have been too ridiculous of a coincidence!). It's enough of a coincidence that THIS Dorothy Pierce also worked at Motown. So, maybe THIS Dorothy Pierce was the songwriter and Sty-lett's producer, while SHE was working for Motown, but NOT moonlighting, because SHE did not have an exclusive songwriting and record producing contract with Motown. So, Berry would have had no problem with HER writing songs for another record company, as long as she did her work at Motown adequately. So, that odd coincidence may explain why Pierce's songs sound nothing like Brian's writing, and maybe Brian WASN'T moonlighting at all, after Berry gave him and Eddy Cadillacs, and gave them a good, regular salary to not jump over to Golden's Correc-Tone. And the rumour that Brian was moonlighting only came about because people knew that Brian's mother-in-law's name was Dorothy Pierce, but didn't know that a current Motown worker had the same exact two names. But, how does that explain that Sal Prado, a member of The Seminoles, who were around Hi-Lite/Rem's offices and recording sessions, a lot, didn't know that a young woman named Dorothy Pierce, who was too young to be Brian's mother-in-law, was writing songs for their artists, and producing, and attending recording sessions with their artists? And why did he think Brian Holland was working for Meehan, if he wasn't? I really thought it would have been a mistake for Brian to be moonlighting after being bribed by Berry to stay. And I never thought Pierce's writing and production was remotely like his Motown product. So, I half believe this explanation. But it also has its believability problems. I guess we'll never know for sure.

Your wording makes it difficult to understand your point. Are you saying that you think Dorothy Lee Carter was The "Dorothy Pierce" credited on those records; but the Dorothy Pierce who WAS Brian Holland's mother-in-law was NOT the same Dorothy Pierce who was credited on the records? And you think that she wrote the songs and produced the records, and that Brian Holland did not? Remember, we are only telling you what people who had been in the business of making Soul records in Detroit at the time those records were made told us. Sal Prado, a member of The Seminoles, who recorded for Hi-Lite Records from 1962-64(when Dorothy or Brian worked for them), told me that the Dorothy Pierce who wrote and produced those songs and records, was Brian Holland's mother-in-law, and that she never wrote a song, or produced a record, but that Brian used that name as an alias. He was around at Hi-Lite/REM all during that time, as The Seminoles recorded many songs for them. Ron Murphy told me that that was the scuttlebutt at the time. Other people from Detroit's music business at that time, also told me that. And another poster on this thread stated that he also had heard that from people who should have known that. Neither of us are claiming that we know, for a fact, that Brian Holland was moonlighting there at that time. We were just telling you what we were told from people who we think should know about that. To me, most of those songs sound very little like Brian's songwriting. And the records, overall sound is very little like what he was producing at Motown. But, so many people have told me that Brian's wife's mother was named Dorothy Pierce. Everywhere I looked in researching that confirmed that that was, indeed his wife's mother's name. So, I think it would be quite an unlikely coincidence that a DIFFERENT Dorothy Pierce worked at Hi-Lite, Rem, Pillar, and Thelma Records in Detroit, making R&B/Soul records. So, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

I think I've seen another Oncore record as well, but can't remember who it was. I'll post it if I remember.

It seems to me that Sonny remembered correctly. "Jamie" was recorded in late 1961. Robert Bateman didn't even get Correc-Tone's recording studio set up until late February or March 1962. As far as I remember, Wilson Pickett's "Let Me Be Your Boy" was their first recording in early spring 1962, well after Sanders and Bateman had left Motown.

I made a 300 dpi scan for you, which I will provide you in a PM (if that size will be allowed to fit). If not, PM me your E-mail address, and I'll mail it to you. Interesting that our old friend from Soulful Detroit Forum, Kris Peterson, wrote that song.

This makes no sense, because both Brian and Eddie were with Berry Gordy before Tamla even started, recording for him with Robert West's Kudo Records, and Mercury in 1958, and singing for him in The RayBer Voices before Tamla on his House of Beauty cuts with Herman Griffin. Golden didn't start Correc-Tone until early 1962. Both Brian and Eddie were with Tamla in 1959. EVEN if you count Eddie being with UA (as NOT being with Motown- ALL of his UA cuts were produced at Motown), Eddie returned to Motown in early-to-mid 1961, - long before Golden started up Correc-Tone.

I've seen a couple more Raldos, and I think I have one of them, along with The Dawnbreakers. So, Gerald's kids were Ralph and Doris? I'm pretty sure the other Raldo was The Elites. They were also on Pat Meehan's Hi-Lite Records. Patti Gilsen, who sang the great 2-sider Motownish "Don't You Tell A Lie/"Pulling Petals From A Daisy" for Ed Wingate and JoAnn Bratton at Golden World, was their lead singer.

A lot at Motown was going on in 1962. Several Motown people were disgruntled that Berry was "handling" the money of the young singers, others wanted to have more freedom and responsibility in their production jobs, more credit, and better pay, or substantial regular salaries. Popcorn Wylie also jumped to Correc-Tone, and Freddie Gorman almost did. Robert Bateman told the story in different ways many years later, and clearly, he came from a different angle, or people misunderstood him, adding assumptions of their own, or his memory of what went down had become clouded. And Dorothy Pierce had one or two songwriting credits on Thelma Records in late 1963-early 1964 (Orthea Barnes' single was one of them). Was Brian actually still moonlighting that late?

Dorothy Pierce is the name of Brian Holland's mother-in-law. I've been told by several people that Brian and Eddie Holland (and by several others that H-D-H) used that name to cover the fact that they were moonlighting from Motown back then (1962-63). I've never seen any proof of that. But, it would be quite a coincidence for another woman to have had that same name, been an R&B/Soul songwriter and producer in Detroit. I find it interesting because Robert Bateman told the story that he quit Motown in Spring 1962, because Brian and Eddie told him that they were going to jump from Motown to Wilbur Golden's new Correc-Tone Records, and told him they were offered big salaries, and so he decided to go with them, and told Berry he was going to quit if he wouldn't match Golden's offer. Gordy told him he wouldn't match it, so Bateman left. Soon after, he found out that Gordy bought new Cadillacs for Brian and Eddie, and gave them large regular salaries to stay, but it was too late for Bateman to undo his quitting. So, it would be very interesting (and strange) that Brian and Eddie would accept Berry's offer for them to stay, and they would NOT jump over to Correc-Tone, and yet, they would moonlight with Hi-Lite/Rem/Pillar. And it is also interesting that Janie Bradford (at that time, still one of the main songwriters at Motown) would moonlight writing songs for Golden's Correc-Tone. Why would they accept Gordy's raises and decent amount of regular pay, and then do what they had planned with Golden, but with someone else??? I guess they thought Berry would never find out,- but if they worked for Golden, he'd have been looking for that, so they'd get caught. It's all very weird.

Berry was a big Jazz fan, and he frequented The Flame Show Bar and Grill, where all the people in the music industry gathered. Robert West was the biggest record producer in Detroit from 1954-1960. Berry probably met him there. He met Joe Hunter, Dr. Beans Bowles, and probably Carmen Murphy and Joe Von Battle (JVB Record Shop owner and who ran The JVB record label) there. I'm sure he got advice from Mr. West on opening his Jazz record shop. West was his mentor in starting up RayBer Music Company, and Tamla Records. He was also Gwen's mentor when she started up Anna Records.

Was Mrs. Freeburg The Smith Girls' manager? Or did you mean Florence Greenberg, owner of Scepter-Wand? I assume that Stan Green was Flo Greenberg's son, Stanley.

THAT'S IT!!! I Knew I had that record, and it was a Chicago mid '60s song! Thanks!

Don't forget that The Yank is also from Chicago, and his heyday in music there was also the 1960s, so he may well come up with it. I wonder if he's seen this thread?

I recognise the song. I'm sure I bought the record during the mid 1960s in Chicago. But, unfortunately, I can't remember the artist or song title. I think it is "Baby, That's a Sign". or "I Wake Up Crying". Both are titles for which I have probably 2 or 3, or 4 records with that title. If I think of it I'll post a video of the record.

Here's another Larry Johnson production and Lucky Token Record (108) - The Resonics, who had an earlier hit with "Pepe Le Pew":https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOqQXwWEKsk

One can only hope.

People make mistakes all the time. I'm not blaming them for not knowing something. I'm angry that one person making that mistake and wording it such that it sounds like a proven fact, can snowball eventually into an entire society think that it is a fact.

Of course there are lots of people NOW who know there were two different Dramatics groups, both from Detroit reasonably close to existing at the same time. There are still people who KNOW that Austin Taylor from New Orleans is NOT Austin Theodore (TED) Taylor. That hasn't seemed to stop it from becoming an "Internet fact" that the two men were one-in-the-same. When the people living now who KNOW they were different people are gone, The World population, on the whole, will likely "be sure" that they were the same person. And "Toy Soldier" will be forever until in The Ron Banks Dramatics' discography, until Humans no longer exist/or 1960s Soul music is forgotten, altogether (whichever comes first).

It was Ted who was born in Okmulgee Oklahoma. Austin was born in New Orleans, according to the man that first protested about the two men being listed as being the same person. At the time of his comment, Austin had just died, and Ted was still alive. The photo above is TED! Apparently, despite his several 45s issued by Laurie, Austin Taylor is so unremembered, and was so obscure that there are NO photos of him on The Internet, - not even a photo of his Laurie LP. Also, his own family members are not even protesting about this omnipresent misinformation. Mark my words: Soon after the last of our generation die, someone will see the label and hear The first Detroit Dramatics' song, "Toy Soldier" and make the observation that "THAT must be The Ron Banks Dramatics first record release." There will be enough research done to realise that it was a Detroit production, with Brohun Music listed (pointing to Fred Brown and Joe Hunter), and F. Brown and J. Hunter are listed as the songs' writers. The "discoverer" will say that The Dramatics were a Detroit group otherwise starting their recording career in 1966. This was a 1963 record. Only 3 years before. This is too close in time for it to have been a different group. It MUST have been them, just with a different lead singer. Banks would have been only 12 then, and the lead's voice was too deep for that age. Others will see this new discovery, and others will agree with his logic, and it will soon spread as an Internet fact. That's the same logic has Austin Taylor from New Orleans and Austin "Ted" Taylor as the same person, with hundreds of us who know better and different, powerless to expunge that new "fact". It will be even easier for misinformation to spread even faster after all of us, who LIVED those facts, are gone.

Man, Ted Taylor's birth name being Austin DOES complicate things. And, I suppose he could have rubbed charcoal all over his body to make himself look much darker when posing as Austin Taylor, "The Push, Push singer". And, I suppose he could have worn giant lifts inside his shoes to make himself 7-8 inches taller, or stood on stilts. And, as was describes on 45 Cat, he could sing in a lower register. And Austin had a shaved head when "Push, Push" (Laurie 1067) came out, and Ted had a full head of hair at that time (1076). Did Austin Ted Taylor shave his head for his time living and working in New York, and wear a wig over it, when commuting to New York each day from L.A. in his private jet, and while living in The New York/New Jersey Metro Area? But, if he were living that double life, then, why on Earth would he have changed his name to an alias while still with Laurie Records, if he didn't want his Austin doings to be known as being done by Ted??? And how can one change the unique tone in one's voice to sound like a completely different person. Even though Nat and Ike Cole's voices have that close familial tone, they each still have a uniqueness in their tone to allow close listeners to tell them apart - same with Dionne and Dee Dee Warwick. Talk about weird coincidences!!! What were the odds of this one occurring???

It IS a mistake. That theory is just wrong. It all must have come from one original mistake. Their voices sound VERY, VERY different. Austin came from New Orleans and worked a lot out of New York. Ted was from Oklahoma, and sang there first, then moved to Texas while with Duke. He then moved to L.A., where he stayed the rest of his career. He didn't gig in L.A. and then fly to New York, and commute back and forth. Laurie Records leased one of his records, just as so many of his freelance productions were, when he didn't have a long-term contract with a label, like he had with Duke and Okeh. He got productions placed with a LOT of small, indie labels, which resulted in only one record released, and a few with 2. There is no way they were the same man. I've seen photos of both. Austin looked very, very different from Ted. If I remember correctly, he had his photo (in a dancing stance) on his Laurie LP, "Push, Push". You can find hundreds of photos of Ted on The Internet.

Yes, that's another possibility, and probably must have been some of the "evidence" used to start, or "substantiate" the rumour. But clearly, none of these clever "history detectives" didn't notice that their voices were extremely different, with in-born tones that couldn't be faked-by even the best voice people, like Mel Blanc; and also they didn't notice what happened afterward (Austin having a long career staying with Laurie, and Ted being with Okeh for a long period while Austin was still with Laurie, and then with Zell Sanders' Sprout Records. And he couldn't have signed with Okeh under the alias, because he had used both names with Laurie, for everyone to observe. This is why young people interested in what happened 60-100 years ago need to check with us ancient people, who were around back then, to make sure that the "discoveries" about the past aren't just seeing coincidences, and surmising things based on way too little evidence, with no cross referencing, and to use a hockey term, no cross-checking.

Ted Taylor DID have an alias, but it wasn't "Austin", - it was Ivory Lucky. He used that name when he sang lead for Bob Reed's Band when they recorded for L.A.'s Melatone Records, while he was still under contact for another label (I think it was Don Robey's Duke Records). Robey was notorious for being late on payments to his creditors and employees, and contract artists, as well. No doubt the Ted Taylor/Austin Taylor rumour started due to both of those Soul singers having their names and photos on the same page, next to each other, and because the positioning of the printing of the names and the photos wasn't quite obvious, so the reader matched the wrong name to a photo, and then, upon seeing the same photo matched with the OTHER singer's name, on a different site, made that important "discovery" that those two singers were "the same person", and thought it his duty to bring that "Earth shattering" news to the general public.