Robbk

Never saw that J-2. It must be very rare. As to the Poets, at least one or two boxes of that one must have escaped Juggy's cache.

Yes, I knew all about Freddie The Mailman Brown, who part-owned Kable and Mickay's records, and bought out Mickay's Record Shop. He wrote a LOT of songs with Joe Hunter. Yes your sentence referencing Brown wasn't clear at all. I didn't know he wrote for McCoy. In fact, I think this was a different F. Brown.

The F. Brown could be Detroit songwriter and producer, Frank Brown, who wouldn't be the singer named "Fred".

Maybe that J-2 record ONLY made the "Pick Hit" category because the error was made, listing its label as "Sue Records" due to recent familiarity with The Poets being a Sue contracted group, as Sue's distributor may have told radio stations NOT to plug Juggy's new J-2 label's releases because Sue's assets were in receivership, and there were questions as to whether or not the J-2 releases had been recorded and paid for using Sue's assets, which had been awarded to Sue's creditors.

Freddie was also a producer at Motown very early. He was part of The expanded BrianBert team, of Brian Holland, Robert Bateman, and Freddie Gorman, starting in late 1960. He started as a songwriter and singer with Detroit's Quailtones in 1955 (who recorded for Josie Records). He was also with Detroit's Fidelitones on Aladdin Records in 1957 (along with future Motowners, Brian and Eddie Holland, and Sonny Sanders). He had 9 years in the music business before joining Golden World/Ric-Tic. Great guy. I had the pleasure of working with him at our own Airwave Records. May he rest in peace.

Well, if such a saving move DID occur, nothing of extra-ordinary value or significance came from it as I don't remember any great unknown finds showing up on auction or in a book on Juggy's life or his record industry career, or rare or unknown records or tapes being discovered. The guy who saved his stuff must be hoarding it to himself. My guess is that it's all deteriorating back to soil in some landfill in New Jersey, owned by The Mafia.

Thanks Graham, for posting this great tape of Ron telling an inside view of what went down back in the day. Like Nick wrote, above, - it's nice to hear Ron's voice again. I learned some things in this one. Nothing unexpected about The Lemons. Some unpleasant happenings about small record labels, and how they got treated. I went through that stuff, too with Airwave. You had to put up with a lot if you wanted to bring good music to the People. You could hear it in his voice, that Ron was excited about making good music. He had a LOT of energy back then, especially back in the '60s and early '70s. Interesting stuff about Forrest Hairston and Viney Records and his recording studio. Too bad, not only for Ron, but for Hairston, HIMSELF, that he let his ego ruin his chance to make a decent living in the music business. I just thought that he had no chance from the beginning because his operations were so small, and he couldn't get a major backer. I didn't know that major outside producers wanted to rent out studio time and he turned them down because he was recording his own artists whose projects had no financial backing. Tough break for Ron, who could have had regular work if Hairston had only listened to reason. I can't believe the pressing plant sent thousands of pressed records that Viney didn't order, and made Hairston pay for them, that killed the chances for his record company to get off to a decent start. To be honest, I didn't like either side of his record, at all. I would have steered clear of The Lemons(es). They had a terrible reputation. That was true of a LOT of people in the record business. But, walking right up and asking for trouble isn't my idea of a good decision. But, I love to hear stories about what went down in the '60s and '70s. It brings back a lot of fond memories.

It's a shame that all Juggy's memorabilia, paperwork, tapes and record stock was lost to posterity.

We DIDN'T stock ANY of the J2 releases at Dolphin's of Hollywood. I didn't see it stocked at Crain's, or Sam's, or Flash, or any of the other Ghetto record shops. I DID see a few copies of The Poets' J2 record later, maybe they came to the West Coast as cutouts from Walgreen's or Woolworth's. I also didn't see them stocked in Chicago. I saw The Poets record maybe a few months after it was released. I didn't see the Baby Washington until maybe 1970 or 1971. THAT was dead rare. I saw a fair amount of The Poets on J2. But that might have been in The Midwest. In any case, The Poets' was a rare record, and The Baby Washington was much more rare. As far as I remember, The Poets' J2 record got no air play on WBEE, WVON, KGFJ, KDIA, or any of the Chicagoland, California, or Detroit stations. And, of course The Baby Washington J2 was completely unknown. Some collectors that had connections to The East Coast knew about The Poets' record. I remember having seen a couple other J2 records. But I can't remember who the artists were. I don't remember seeing them as regularly stocked records in 1967 in retail shops. They probably arrived as cutouts. Those others would have even been rarer than The Poets'.

You can post a link to a YouTube music file (MP3 or MP4) by typing or copying the web address (URL) from the Internet address bar at the top of the page into your post window, or you can right click on the picture of the music file to copy it, and then paste it into the "file drag area" below, where you see the paper clip icon and the words: "drag files here to attach".

I'm in L.A. now, and have been since The Covid Pandemic started. I've looked everywhere in my house and storage for the tape, and the personal CD that was made for me which I think had a copy of it. But have found neither. One or both may be sitting in my flats in Holland, Denmark or Germany. But, with a skipping heartbeat, I don't want to travel before I get a heart pacemaker surgically installed. That won't happen until my cardiologist recommends that, based on the missing beats becoming too frequent. That's likely to happen within the next 3 years, but we don't know when. In any case my 35-40 year old cassette tape is bound to have deteriorated (usually cassettes dry out and have weak spots or dropouts). I know that quite a few of the major NS collectors bought those Groovesville Masters Tapes, and likely most, if not all of them eventually had them converted to CDs or other digital formats. We should be able to get a much better copy than my cassette version from one of them. We've currently got some requests in to people who are likely to have the recording on digital. I'm sure we'll be able to get a file sent to us.

Unfortunately, I have neither of those CDs. But I CAN tell you that on the real Pat Lewis demo tape, on the cassette release, and on the individual tape made for me, Pat Lewis' vocal was much more prominent than the strings and horns, and all the instrumental other than the bass, which seemed too strong for my taste. The instrumental on that version was a lot more basic, and I'm not sure if one of horns or strings was missing altogether. Bass, and guitar were clear, with bass much heavier. Other than that, I'm not sure. It's been a lot of years since I've listened to it. I'm hoping that someone with the 2 CDs will upload the 2 cuts. There must be someone on this thread that bought the CDs, or know someone that worked for Goldmine.

So, Goldmine Soul Supply issued a CD on those same Groovesville Masters that were released on the cassette tapes set? There were enough for at least a couple CDs. But, maybe Goldmine only put the best 30, or so, on it. So, Don Davis and LeBaron Taylor must have paid for Terri Bryant's recording session and got re-imbursed for those costs in their fees to Avant or Verve, if Davis kept her session tapes with his Groovesville Records master tapes. That means that BOTH Terri's and Pat's versions were in his archive. And Goldmine's staff got them mixed up. I'd guess, then, that the wrong version is also on that CD. I wonder who has those Groovesville master tapes now? Did Davis' son sell them off, or just lease them?

That's because it's an alternate mix of Terri Bryant in the George McGregor/Don Davis produced session for Verve. But I've heard the Pat Lewis demo version, with a good vocal, but less complex (more sparse) instrumental, among the "Groovesville Master Tapes" that were introduced to The NS Scene near the end of the 1980s, and (if I remember correctly) the best of which were played from carvers by a couple DJs, and not long after (about 1990?) were made available (sold) to collectors in the form of a set of cassette tapes. I got tapes of all those I thought sounded good (several were nowhere near finished (demos in early stages)). There were adverts for them in several NS fanzines/magazines/newsletters. I'd guess that you remember them, Chalky, and might have bought a set yourself, or bought those that were later pressed on vinyl records on UK re-issue labels. As far as I know, this supposed "Pat Lewis" cut is the only one that was botched, using the wrong recording. I can't remember what they all were, but several were unreleased Steve Mancha, J.J. Barnes, Pat Lewis, Melvin Davis, Darrell Banks, and a few GW/Ric-Tic artists I didn't know recorded for Don Davis/Solid Hitbound. There were also one or 2 Detroit Soul artists I didn't know recorded for either Don Davis OR Ed Wingate.

Yes. I would bet that Don Davis and George wouldn't want to pay another drummer, when George was right there anyway, and likely a better drummer than they would get -ad Hoc. And George was the producer, and knew exactly what he wanted for his song.

You should get ahold of the cuts from The Groovesville Masters Tapes. Lots of Soulies got them, plus carvers were made, and I'm sure people would be glad to send you a digital copy. I didn't like the sound quality of the originals very much, as it was clear that several of their instrumentals were sparse and basic, because they were just demos made for Davis to lease the songs. As I recall, on Pat's version, the bass was much more prominent and the strings were light and pushed way back in the mix (if they were there at all). It's been a lot of years since I listened to it. But the vocal was quite different from Terri's, and good too, as Pat had more range (and really, I rate her a much more polished singer). The background is disappointing next to the finished, "A" side (hit treatment) McGregor/Terry and Don Davis gave the commercial version. But, that's par for the course with demo versions. If any of you get a friend to send you a digital file of Pat's version, please upload it on this thread, so that everyone can know about Connoisseur's error.

Another thing..... I don't think the singer on the Connoisseurs record above is Pat Lewis (or at least the recording being played on the video is not). They put the wrong recording on the video. That voice sounds EXACTLY like Terri Bryant. And, I even think it's her Verve take on the released record, possibly with a slightly different instrumental mix. I have the Groovesville Masters cassette tape from 1989 or 1990, that was issued not long after it was discovered in Don Davis' tape archive. Bryant's voice is light and breathy with a very high register, while Pat sang with a fuller voice at a deeper register. Listen to "Warning", "I'll Bet You", "No One To Love", "Let's Go Together", "Look At What I Almost Missed". Those 2 Ladies had quite different voices, with different tones and sung at different registers. The real Pat Lewis version had Pat's deeper voice, as well as a more simple, basic instrumental background mix, in which the bass was more prominent. I don't have an operating cassette deck with me nor the cassette, so I can't convert it to MP3 or MP4 for you all to hear for yourselves. But it is clear that someone made a mistake trying to identify an unlabeled tape.

This is Bessie doin' the female version of Sam Cooke.

Approaching 80 years old, and not having the energy for such things, I don't think I'm going to be able or willing to put the time and effort into writing a book. And I don't have any children who would sue anyone for publishing any of my posts on this website or Soulful Detroit. So, if, after I'm gone (from this World - not just this website), someone wants to gather up and edit all my posts on Motown, Detroit Soul, and Chicago Soul Music, and edit it, and compose it into a coherent publication, I'll have no objections. I won't come back from the grave to haunt such a person.

Wasn't the Pat Lewis version of "Geni" Goldmine release from those Groovesville masters obtained originally from Don Davis' son, that appeared on that Groovesville Masters cassette tapes set that appeared around 1990? I heard, back during the 1960s (maybe from Ron Murphy?) that Lewis, then one of Don Davis' and Lebaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions' regular artists, and one of their main background singers, was chosen to sing the demo versions of "Geni" and "When I'm In Your Arms" for Solid Hitbound's special contracted production of that record for Sussex Productions and MGM/Verve, the latter of whom already had Ms. Bryant under artist contract. That's why Pat Lewis' version was not released. MGM/Verve probably placed a specific clause in their contract with Solid Hitbound, that the latter couldn't issue a commercial version of either song on their own labels. So, Lewis' version, sung over the same general background tracks(but a different mix), was likely just the demo that Bryant used as a guide, and was never intended to be issued on Solid Hit Records. It seems that Solid Hitbound/Groovesville was contracted by Sussex(Clarence Avent) to write the songs and supervise the recording session (in Detroit, I believe at United Sound) together with George McGregor, and have Mike Terry arrange it, for MGM/Verve, who needed material and producers to produce sessions on their newly-signed artist (Terri Bryant). Verve and Sussex (primary contractors) contracted with a different production crew (George Kerr) and arranger (Richard Tee) for her other Verve release, "Everything's Wonderful", (recorded in New York). I'm guessing that Avent "discovered" Bryant, and got her the audition with Verve, which is why there are 3 different major players in this project, with a prime contractor, Avent's Sussex Productions, a subcontractor, Taylor and Davis' Solid Hitbound Productions, and Record Company MGM/Verve Records. Apparently, Avent brought Bryant to Verve, and either HE, or his subcontractor, Solid Hitbound, brought in free lance songwriter/producer, George McGregor, a session producer, and Avent didn't trust McGregor's songwriting to be good enough to produce a hit, so Davis' Groovesville was chosen to write the songs and produce the demos, and use their regular arranger, and provide the background vocalists and produce the instrumental and background singers tracks. Despite paying out more for this deluxe over-costly contract setup, with an extra middle man, Bryant's 2 records charted modestly, but didn't bring in enough sales, more than having McGregor write the songs, produce the session alone, arrange for the background singers, arrange the songs himself, or have the same, Mike Terry, arrange, and cut out Davis and Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions, altogether. I heard also (from another Detroit friend) that Pat had, indeed, been one of the background singers on the background track. I can't remember, offhand, who the other background singers were. But, they were likely other Don Davis Groovesville regulars.

I can't wait to hear what Ron said. He was a friend of mine, who taught me a lot of Detroit's music history. In addition to being a recording engineer, and record masterer, he ran a couple of his own record labels, as well. He knew a tremendous amount of the history of Motown, and once had one of the very most comprehensive collections of Motown records.

Great interview, Graham. This helps fill in the picture of how Roger and Willie got to Detroit, and why they still had connections in The South. And I always wondered whether they were related to Charley (Edwin Starr). They may be distant relatives, or, at least connected by their forebears having been unrelated fellow slaves on a single Hatcher-owned plantation. Nice that you added the Pac-3 interview, too.

Great interview. Thanks Graham. Especially getting to hear that Four Clippers Fox record I got to see in several friends collections, but was never able to find a playable copy. I knew Jay Davis was a Detroit singer, and have a few solo records by him, but didn't know he was in all those different groups that I had all those '60s records. I knew about the early 70s records, but never bought them.

It could be a lower case "e" on its side, based on what looks like a "base" on the bottom of the vertical line. But IF that were the case, the "base" of the symbol would be on its left side. We have no way of knowing what it stands for, unless we can think of which pressing plants, and record masterers in that region's company or owners or staff personal names could match what the symbol represents. It's like a shot in the dark, unless we can find some documentation that matches the information we know is concrete.

Thanks, I only meant it could represent a lot of different alphabet letters and individual symbols of record masterers or pressing plants, rather than a wide gamut like "everything in The World". If I ever say anything "personal" about any forum poster's actions, it will only be positive, in praise, not putting someone down. I wouldn't want to be "combative" and ruin the mood here, of people who come here to learn and share knowledge and bringing good music to each other.