Robbk

We had both sides of Little Nicky and both sides of The Four Arts label scans posted on a forum thread (but I forget which one). The 4 ZTSP numbers were consecutive. "I Wanted To Tell You" was ZTSP 94863, so its flip was ZTSP 94864. I believe that the numbers for Shee 100 (Four Arts) were ZTSP 94861 for "Who Do You Think You Are", and ZTSP 94862 for the flip.

We had scans of both sides of both Shee 101 and Shee 100 on a thread on some forum. But I can't find it now. The matrix numbers of all four cuts of those two records were consecutive. "I Wanted To Tell You" was ZTSP 94863. Its flip was 94864. I believe that the numbers for Shee 100 (The Four Arts) were ZTSP 94861 and 94862. They were probably pressed up at the same time. I think that Bob A. posted the scan of The Four Arts. That would place the releases around late May-early June of 1964.

WOW!!! I would really love to hear THAT ONE!!! I've heard that she was just hired as a demo singer. But, I wonder if Raynoma was pressing to also get her a singing contract and a record release with Motown, as she tried with The Parliaments, and succeeded with The Serenaders and Sammy Turner? Does anyone know if Carol Moore had any releases on local NY Area labels? (or ANY labels, for that matter?)

The 2nd 45 is purported to also be on Shee Records. So, perhaps 4 songs were recorded in his session? Did Sidney say that they only recorded the 2 on his Shee 101 release?

I think that "I Wanted To Tell You" sounds like Motown's late 1961-1962 to some degree. Please ask him if he and Lucille White wrote that originally with the idea of selling it to Jobete Music, and later, he decided to give it to his friend, Nicky, to help ensure that he'd have a chance for a hit. I've noticed that all of the writers at Jobete Music NY changed their writing style to fit Motown's style when writing songs for Jobete Music. Ask him if Raynoma and Eddie had the NY writers get any instruction from Detroit Motown staff on what they wanted.

Thanks Chalky. It's nice to get information from the actual participants. I guess we can assume that Barnes left before Nicky got recorded (or, if not, then The Four Arts were NOT the group that backed up Nicky). We know now, that Sidney Barnes was not the A&R man for Shee Records, nor was he a co-owner.

How much would the Age version go for? By the way, the Age title is "Cut You A-Loose".

Now that I've found out that BMI has Sidney Barnes and Lucille White as co-writers of the 2 songs, rather than the "M. Alexander" and L. White on the record label, and knowing that the music publisher, Elsid Music belonged to Sidney Barnes, I conclude that Sidney Barnes used M. Alexander as an alias, to avoid problems with his contractor, Jobete Music Co. He and partner, George Kerr were contracted as songwriters (and demo recording producers) with Motown's Jobete Music's New York office (run by Raynoma Gordy). It's clear that Barnes was "moonlighting" with productions on Shee Records. The Four Arts' 2 cuts on Shee were also published by Elsid Music. I think that Barnes was, at least, co-owner of the label (maybe with a money partner), and he ran the label. Lucille White was also a writer in Kerr & Barnes' crew at Jobete Music. They worked there until mid 1964, when Raynoma had quantities of Mary Wells' "My Guy" pressed up and she sold them, herself, to dristributors on The East Coast, and kept the money to fund The NY Jobete office. Berry Gordy shut down that office immediately, and "fired" all the contractees (Kerr & Barnes and their crew, George Clinton and his crew, and Gene Redd, Jr. and his crew, plus Raynoma and Eddie Singleton (managers). Before that happened there was an evergrowing straining of the relationship of Gordy towards Raynoma and Eddie and their office. It was clear that he never intended to finance their operations properly or support them in any way. He proved that by signing only The Serenaders and Sammy Turner to Motown recording contracts, and allowing only one release each on them, with absolutely no marketing push. Raynoma had likely also promised to get record releases for Clinton's Parliaments, and possibly The Parlettes and maybe Tamala Lewis. She probably had promised releases for Redd's Roy Handy and The Prophets, and maybe to Kerr & Barnes for The Dolls, Carole Moore, and possibly The Tokens. When it was clear that little would happen on that front, Sidney Barnes may have decided to moonlight, to make some extra cash. That may explain why his name doesn't appear on the Shee Records. Later, after The Jobete NY office was closed, and his contract was over, he could have folded his M. Alexander songwriting rights in with his under his real name. From the sound of the music writing in "I Wanted To Tell You", I conclude that Barnes and White wrote that song originally with Motown in mind and fully intended to sell it to Jobete Music Co. But, when Barnes started moonlighting and needed songs, he decided to keep that one for himself, so his own project would have a chance to succeed. It might have been interesting to hear what The Funk Brothers would have done with it. But Richard Tee and crew did a fine job, anyway.

Thanks for the sound file. I listened to it, and agree that it's "Blue Eyed Soul", and a very different lead voice from Little Nicky. Nicky C. was probably the Greek guy in the writing credits, and from The Greater Baltimore area or nearby Maryland or Virginia. Whereas, Little Nicky Soul was probably from The Greater New York/New Jersey Metro Area.

Here are a couple-I'll look for more later (forget for which labels they were made, and thus, where filed): Marquee 702-Royal Spades-Side A: Uploaded with ImageShack.us Side B: Uploaded with ImageShack.us Chex 1000-Majestics-Side A-with original pre-pressing title-retitled: "Give Me A Cigarette"-Commercial pressing listed only The Majestics as the artists: Uploaded with ImageShack.us Side B: Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I don't think it ever got recorded. I do remember seeing a reference to it. So, Lucille White must have been a friend of George Kerr's and Sidney's. So, apparently, she also wrote for the Kerr and Barnes writing team in The New York Jobete Music Office. Then, after they closed down, she still worked some with Sidney. I wonder why the song got listed as 1965. ALL the NY Jobete staff were gone from Motown in late 1964. I'll bet that song was originally written in 1964. Immediately after Berry closed down NY Jobete office, George Kerr went over to Ed Wingate, and started his Maltese Music and Maltese Records (distributed by Wingate). Sid Barnes wnt over to Wingate maybe near the end of 1964, so he probably worked with Shee Records a little before NY Jobete was closed down, and a little after, before moving to Detroit to work for Golden World. George Clinton also went over to Wingate. So did Gene Redd, to have his Stephanye Records recorded there and distributed by Golden World. Why would Lucille White have continued to write for Motown after The NY Office was shut down? I never heard of her working in Detroit at Motown. I never heard of W.Luke or M. Luke. They must have been New Yorkers as well. Maybe Motown (Jobete) bought the song from White and The Lukes in mid 1964, and didn't get around to registering it until 1965?

I just read that "Elsid Music" was Sidney Barnes' (which makes sense, given his first name, and the fact that he was co-writer of the Little Nicky songs (according to BMI's current data). Maybe he left his name off the Shee records due to an exclusive writing contract he still had with Motown's Jobete Music at the time these songs were written? Maybe he was a co-owner of Shee Records, and ran the label?

Yes, I mixed up Baysound (Baltimore) with North Bay (Philadelphia). You're probably right that Little Nicky C. is a different guy (although a fair amount of DC/Baltimore people went to NY to work (Clovers, Paul Winley, Van McCoy, Eddie Singleton, Raynoma Liles (Gordy)). Lou Roberts probably wasn't a producer. Well, it was worth a try. I think "I Wanted To Tell You" is FAR, FAR superior to Nicky's flip, and the two Four Arts sides. But, I'd like to hear The Four Arts cuts on their other label (I've forgotten what label it is). I'd never seen their names before these recent threads.

Thanks. You wouldn't happen to remember a Larry Roberts connected with NY mid '60s records, would you? What about M. Alexander? Do you know anything about the Little Nicky C. on Baysound? Wasn't that a Philadelphia label?

I wrote Four Acts by typo, but meant Four Arts. But, I don't see any modify or edit post function. Is there no edit function on this forum? L. Roberts? I seem to recall a Larry Roberts as a name on some mid '60s NY records. I wonder if that's the same guy? Also, Lou Roberts rings a bell.

Does anyone have the label information for The Four Acts on Shee 100, and/or know what was the other release of The Four Acts, and what label released it? Anyone have The Little Nicky C on Bay Sound? I'd like to find out who was involved in that production.

The members of the Four Acts were Lee Gilliard, Cleve Gilliard, Dave Richards and Ike Richards. Interesting that the listed producer of Shee 100 and Shee 101 was "M. Alexander", who was also listed as co-writer of "I Wanted To Tell You", while BMI has Sidney Barnes listed as L. White's co-writer. I don't think Sidney Barnes was producing as early as 1964. Could this be one of those cases in which the producer tried to take over the rights of the writer as "payment" for getting the record released, and Barnes later got things straightened out with BMI to retain his rights? Has anyone else seen the second Little Nicky Soul on Shee? I assume it must have been 102.

Anyone know who Little Nicky, M. Alexander and L. White are, or about Shee Records (its owner and staff)? It was located at 563 E. Tremont Ave, Bronx, NY. As you all probably know, "I Wanted To Tell You" by Little Nicky Soul was released on Shee101. Sounds like about 1964 or 1965. But the song, itself, has 1962 style. I'm an expert on ZTSC Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute/Chicago) pressing plant code #s, but not quite so good on ZTSP East Coast plant (I think that's in Pennsylvania). Anyway, 94,000 seems to be about right for around late 1964. "I'm On The Outside Looking In" was pressed around that number (somewhat before), as was "Look Away" by Garnet Mimms & Enchanters (slightly after). The song has a great group sound. The group behind him is very, very good. The song is well-written, too. Richard Tee did a great job arranging it. He's my favourite New York '60s arranger. The lead guitar is great, but I'd have had the piano more upfront. The drummer's part is excellent -and excellently played-got to be Pretty Purdie. Maybe M. Alexander and L. White were in a group with Little Nicky? The music writing sounds a LOT like 1961-62 mid-tempo Motown group songs. It sounds a LOT like the stuff Robert Bateman was writing with Brian Holland and Freddie Gorman, and then the kind of sound his songs had at Correc-Tone (where he went when he left Motown in early 1962). I could hear Wilson Pickett singing it, with The Falcons backing him up (a la "Let Me Be Your Boy", just like his 1962-63 cuts for Bateman. Bateman took that same style with him to New York, and he used Richard Tee, exclusively, as his arranger. This was probably a Bronx Soul group. I'd bet I've got some records by this guy as the lead of a group, or as Nick ______, with a last name. He's certainly not Nick Ashford (about as far off a voice as possible). I bet I also have some records produced by M. Alexander (also having his full first name). I doubt that he was New York Jazz pianist, Monty Alexander. I wonder if these guys were under contract to another company at the time. Otherwise, why all the secrecy with the names? (no last name for Nick, no first name for the producer). Richard Tee didn't have to worry about his full name being listed, as the outside arranger. Anyone out there know any details about this record and label? Were there any other releases on Shee other than 101?