Robbk

The linked article said that Johnny Cochrane, SENIOR owned the label. But that can't be right, as he'd have been too old to like that kind of "new music", as Junior was born in 1937 (and would have been 29 in 1966). So, it must have been THE Johnny Cochrane, Jr. who owned it. It was interesting to find out also that Jackie Day's first husband was Blues/R&B band leader, Big Jay McNeely.

Nice to see you're on here, Rod. Bit of an exaggeration, though, eh? I was up to even $1.00 for the right record by 1967!

I just wrote 1984 because that was the first year Ady listed. It was some time in the early '80s. It could have been 1983, or even 1982 that Rod got it from me.

It was "discovered" by me in 1967, along with the Terri Goodnight 45 also on Phelectron records, at Pat's Records in South-Central Los Angeles (Corner of Vernon Ave. & San Pedro Place) in a 50 cent sale. The pair cost me one Dollar. I traded both to Rod Shard for a bunch of rare Detroit Records (he gathered over a few years) -we consumated the trade in the early-mid 1980s. 1984 sounds about right. He started playing it immediately. I traded him a fair amount of '60s NS records starting the late '70s through the 1980s. Several of the records he "broke" came from me. I had looked through millions of 45s, and don't remember ever seeing another Phelectron record, either before or after. Does anyone know who owned Phelectron Records?

Mal, we had a discussion about that just after you won the DSSI demo. Unfortunately, Ron Murphy was already gone, and so we couldn't ask him. Upon listening to it, we realised it wasn't Jimmy Delphs. We concluded that it must have been the demo "reference" cut for Delphs to use as a model. Here's the link to our thread: https://soulfuldetroi....php/t-560.html Davie Gordon postulated that it might be one of Duane Freeman or George Mallory (the writers).

Flynny (or anyone else here)....Did Don Davis ever answer the question as to why he leased the master of "Lucky To Be Loved By You" to Jesse Herring's tiny Wild Deuce Records instead of releasing it on Thelma? Was the leasing after Thelma 113, and the writing was on the wall that the company would close shop? I think it was Lasky's best, and might have been a hit if released on a major (that would PUSH it). Did he try to get a major to lease it? From it's sound, I'd guess it was recorded rather earlier than 108-so not really near their end of the line. Actually, it's my favourite Thelma cut. I would have been happier to see it come out on the unused Thelma 103. But, I know that that had been originally scheduled for a female solo artist (forget name).

I have one on Radio City white DJ. It also came as gold on black store stock. There was a Radio City issue of the record with the group name changed to The Royal Knights, but the recordings are exactly the same. Radio City was a re-issue a year or two later, when The owner (someone named Johnson) moved to San Diego. The Radio City releases, in addition to having their own pressing plant pressing code number, also list the Tac-Ful record catalog number (TF1002). The Radio City re-releases are much rarer, but as re-releases have less value. So, the combination of being less original, but being rarer, may make their prices not so far apart. The New Yorkers were produced in L.A. by L.A. producer, Ben Gresham. His brother Jimmy was the arranger. The group was called The New Yorkers because they were managed by 3 professional US Football players who had played much of their careers with The New York Giants, but now, (1964-65) were playing for The Los Angeles Rams. I believe that at least one, if not two of the group members were the football players (possibly all 3). There were also some Tac-Ful pressings from another pressing plant that were a greenish-blue. I have one of those as well. We had a thread on this very topic on RareSoul Forum in 2007, with scans of all these records.

That's surprising to me that Dave Hamilton was involved in a Mickay's production. I never saw his name on any of those records (Mickay's or Orthea (Ortheia) on Coral. I assume that he must then have been the arranger. The listed arrangers on Mickay's were Joe Hunter, Fred Brown, Mike Hanks, Phil Wright (Chicago) and McKinley Jackson. Do you know what Dave Hamilton had to do with that Orthea Barnes Mickay's production?

Do you know who is singing "Never Ever Leave Me" for Mickay's Records? I don't know of any Mickay's release with that title. Does it sound like J.J. Barnes, Orthea Barnes, Mel Anton, or The Legends? What does it sound like?

"In The Neighborhood" -Jimmy Ruffin "On The Avenue"-Jimmy Ruffin There were a LOT more Motown and Detroit tracks used on 2 or more recordings. As far as the Connections between Chicago's Maurci Records and Detroit's Topper Records I can only guess. The tracks for "Challenge My Love were DEFINITELY laid down by Dave Hamilton and his people in Detroit. I believe that Maurci Records was Gene Chandler's and SimTec Simmon's label. They had Sonny Sanders as one of their arrangers and McKinley Jackson as producer, songwriter, arranger and A&R man, and Andre Williams was involved a bit. All three had ties in Chicago and Detroit. But, I don't remember Andre Williams or Sonny Sanders working with Dave Hamilton. Nor do I remember McKinley Jackson working with him. But, Andre Williams, and certainly , Sonny Sanders were working mostly in Chicago in 1965-1966. I'd guess that possibly Jackson, who worked a lot more in Detroit than in Chicago, was in the studio when they were recording it, and liked it, and asked Hamilton if he could "buy" it from him if Hamilton's Tobi Lark record failed to do much in sales. OR, someone in Detroit got their hands on a copy of the backing track master tapes and sold them/it to Jackson (he not knowing that it had been used on a released record. We certainly didn't hear "Challenge My Love" on WVON. I don't know if it got radio play outside Detroit. We didn't hear it in Chicago, as I remember. Most of the other same backing tracks used had fairly clear trails of connections between staff or ownership from one label to the other, or from people who had worked together at one time or another. This one is tough to figure.

Naturally, I, or Chalky, or Bob A., or whoever finds out anything about the supposed 2nd Shee release on Little Nicky will post that info here on this or a new thread. I'm glad to see that "Just One Night" was the "A" side of The Four Arts' record. I like it better than "Who Do You Think You Are" (which I think sounds messy).

We had both sides of Little Nicky and both sides of The Four Arts label scans posted on a forum thread (but I forget which one). The 4 ZTSP numbers were consecutive. "I Wanted To Tell You" was ZTSP 94863, so its flip was ZTSP 94864. I believe that the numbers for Shee 100 (Four Arts) were ZTSP 94861 for "Who Do You Think You Are", and ZTSP 94862 for the flip.

We had scans of both sides of both Shee 101 and Shee 100 on a thread on some forum. But I can't find it now. The matrix numbers of all four cuts of those two records were consecutive. "I Wanted To Tell You" was ZTSP 94863. Its flip was 94864. I believe that the numbers for Shee 100 (The Four Arts) were ZTSP 94861 and 94862. They were probably pressed up at the same time. I think that Bob A. posted the scan of The Four Arts. That would place the releases around late May-early June of 1964.

WOW!!! I would really love to hear THAT ONE!!! I've heard that she was just hired as a demo singer. But, I wonder if Raynoma was pressing to also get her a singing contract and a record release with Motown, as she tried with The Parliaments, and succeeded with The Serenaders and Sammy Turner? Does anyone know if Carol Moore had any releases on local NY Area labels? (or ANY labels, for that matter?)

The 2nd 45 is purported to also be on Shee Records. So, perhaps 4 songs were recorded in his session? Did Sidney say that they only recorded the 2 on his Shee 101 release?

I think that "I Wanted To Tell You" sounds like Motown's late 1961-1962 to some degree. Please ask him if he and Lucille White wrote that originally with the idea of selling it to Jobete Music, and later, he decided to give it to his friend, Nicky, to help ensure that he'd have a chance for a hit. I've noticed that all of the writers at Jobete Music NY changed their writing style to fit Motown's style when writing songs for Jobete Music. Ask him if Raynoma and Eddie had the NY writers get any instruction from Detroit Motown staff on what they wanted.

Thanks Chalky. It's nice to get information from the actual participants. I guess we can assume that Barnes left before Nicky got recorded (or, if not, then The Four Arts were NOT the group that backed up Nicky). We know now, that Sidney Barnes was not the A&R man for Shee Records, nor was he a co-owner.

How much would the Age version go for? By the way, the Age title is "Cut You A-Loose".

Now that I've found out that BMI has Sidney Barnes and Lucille White as co-writers of the 2 songs, rather than the "M. Alexander" and L. White on the record label, and knowing that the music publisher, Elsid Music belonged to Sidney Barnes, I conclude that Sidney Barnes used M. Alexander as an alias, to avoid problems with his contractor, Jobete Music Co. He and partner, George Kerr were contracted as songwriters (and demo recording producers) with Motown's Jobete Music's New York office (run by Raynoma Gordy). It's clear that Barnes was "moonlighting" with productions on Shee Records. The Four Arts' 2 cuts on Shee were also published by Elsid Music. I think that Barnes was, at least, co-owner of the label (maybe with a money partner), and he ran the label. Lucille White was also a writer in Kerr & Barnes' crew at Jobete Music. They worked there until mid 1964, when Raynoma had quantities of Mary Wells' "My Guy" pressed up and she sold them, herself, to dristributors on The East Coast, and kept the money to fund The NY Jobete office. Berry Gordy shut down that office immediately, and "fired" all the contractees (Kerr & Barnes and their crew, George Clinton and his crew, and Gene Redd, Jr. and his crew, plus Raynoma and Eddie Singleton (managers). Before that happened there was an evergrowing straining of the relationship of Gordy towards Raynoma and Eddie and their office. It was clear that he never intended to finance their operations properly or support them in any way. He proved that by signing only The Serenaders and Sammy Turner to Motown recording contracts, and allowing only one release each on them, with absolutely no marketing push. Raynoma had likely also promised to get record releases for Clinton's Parliaments, and possibly The Parlettes and maybe Tamala Lewis. She probably had promised releases for Redd's Roy Handy and The Prophets, and maybe to Kerr & Barnes for The Dolls, Carole Moore, and possibly The Tokens. When it was clear that little would happen on that front, Sidney Barnes may have decided to moonlight, to make some extra cash. That may explain why his name doesn't appear on the Shee Records. Later, after The Jobete NY office was closed, and his contract was over, he could have folded his M. Alexander songwriting rights in with his under his real name. From the sound of the music writing in "I Wanted To Tell You", I conclude that Barnes and White wrote that song originally with Motown in mind and fully intended to sell it to Jobete Music Co. But, when Barnes started moonlighting and needed songs, he decided to keep that one for himself, so his own project would have a chance to succeed. It might have been interesting to hear what The Funk Brothers would have done with it. But Richard Tee and crew did a fine job, anyway.

Thanks for the sound file. I listened to it, and agree that it's "Blue Eyed Soul", and a very different lead voice from Little Nicky. Nicky C. was probably the Greek guy in the writing credits, and from The Greater Baltimore area or nearby Maryland or Virginia. Whereas, Little Nicky Soul was probably from The Greater New York/New Jersey Metro Area.

Here are a couple-I'll look for more later (forget for which labels they were made, and thus, where filed): Marquee 702-Royal Spades-Side A: Uploaded with ImageShack.us Side B: Uploaded with ImageShack.us Chex 1000-Majestics-Side A-with original pre-pressing title-retitled: "Give Me A Cigarette"-Commercial pressing listed only The Majestics as the artists: Uploaded with ImageShack.us Side B: Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I don't think it ever got recorded. I do remember seeing a reference to it. So, Lucille White must have been a friend of George Kerr's and Sidney's. So, apparently, she also wrote for the Kerr and Barnes writing team in The New York Jobete Music Office. Then, after they closed down, she still worked some with Sidney. I wonder why the song got listed as 1965. ALL the NY Jobete staff were gone from Motown in late 1964. I'll bet that song was originally written in 1964. Immediately after Berry closed down NY Jobete office, George Kerr went over to Ed Wingate, and started his Maltese Music and Maltese Records (distributed by Wingate). Sid Barnes wnt over to Wingate maybe near the end of 1964, so he probably worked with Shee Records a little before NY Jobete was closed down, and a little after, before moving to Detroit to work for Golden World. George Clinton also went over to Wingate. So did Gene Redd, to have his Stephanye Records recorded there and distributed by Golden World. Why would Lucille White have continued to write for Motown after The NY Office was shut down? I never heard of her working in Detroit at Motown. I never heard of W.Luke or M. Luke. They must have been New Yorkers as well. Maybe Motown (Jobete) bought the song from White and The Lukes in mid 1964, and didn't get around to registering it until 1965?

I just read that "Elsid Music" was Sidney Barnes' (which makes sense, given his first name, and the fact that he was co-writer of the Little Nicky songs (according to BMI's current data). Maybe he left his name off the Shee records due to an exclusive writing contract he still had with Motown's Jobete Music at the time these songs were written? Maybe he was a co-owner of Shee Records, and ran the label?

Yes, I mixed up Baysound (Baltimore) with North Bay (Philadelphia). You're probably right that Little Nicky C. is a different guy (although a fair amount of DC/Baltimore people went to NY to work (Clovers, Paul Winley, Van McCoy, Eddie Singleton, Raynoma Liles (Gordy)). Lou Roberts probably wasn't a producer. Well, it was worth a try. I think "I Wanted To Tell You" is FAR, FAR superior to Nicky's flip, and the two Four Arts sides. But, I'd like to hear The Four Arts cuts on their other label (I've forgotten what label it is). I'd never seen their names before these recent threads.

Thanks. You wouldn't happen to remember a Larry Roberts connected with NY mid '60s records, would you? What about M. Alexander? Do you know anything about the Little Nicky C. on Baysound? Wasn't that a Philadelphia label?