Robbk

Yes, it's not like The Four Gents on Oncore sold a million copies and got a lot of Detroit radio airplay. I don't even know if they got any airplay in Detroit, let alone Flint. Apparently, The Four Gents in Flint didn't hang out in Detroit at all, to know that The other Four Gents made some local appearances there. And, likely, the first group was already split up, when the other started.

The seller described that record as 2 Detroit sides, but I sincerely doubt that. Derek Martin was still living in New York in 1967, and his producer and had worked only wit NY writers/producers for many years at that time, despite having been originally from Detroit and, originally in a Detroit vocal group. His songwriter/producer, Teddy Randazzo, worked out of NY, and had standing gigs there as a performing band leader. I really doubt that he went to Detroit to work on that production. He had been Martin's latest producer for Roulette, recording in New York. I assume that Randazzo recorded both the vocals and instrumentals to these 2 Tuba cuts in New York, and through one of Martin's Detroit connections (someone he knew years before, when he worked in Detroit, He and Randazzo leased the masters to Tuba records. When I listen to those 2 cuts, I don't hear Detroit musicians. Anyone here know who owned Tuba Records? I know their 1700 series (Navy Blue plain text labels) were distributed by Mike Hanks' MAH's Records. But, I'm sure they were at least partly (if not totally owned by someone else). I think that Hanks must have been at least co-owner, as all my 1700 series Tubas have MAH's Music as publisher. Looking at the producer info., songwriters and music publishers on the post 1966 Tuba Records, one might think that the Tuba 1700 series was a Mike Hanks label, which ended in late 1962 or early 1963, and had nothing to do with the later Tuba (powder blue & graphic tuba player design on label), which ran from 1966-1967. But, I think it's too much of a coincidence that both were located in Detroit with only a 3-year gap. I think that Hanks had a money partner in The 1700 series Tuba, with Hanks handling A&R and being main producer, and the money partner reviving his label in 1966, WITHOUT Hanks, having no in-house production, and just picking up (leasing) productions by local Detroit, AND also East Coast (NY & Philadelphia) productions from independent producers.

That acetate is NOT the acetate that Tom DePierro and I taped as a sample for review for inclusion in 'From The Vaults". Andy's may have been the original source of the other played version. Ours was a simple Jobete Music Co. publishing reference disc, and had a creamy white (off-clour-slightly yellowed from aging), which had only "Jobete Music Co." hand typed with a black taped typewriter, and "Suspicion" hand typed in the same font, in red (bottom half of the same ribbon (that had black on top)). There was no other print nor anything else on the label. "Our version" is the one that first went to Rod, and through him, to Dave Withers. Clearly, within a year, or two, the other vaulted version (from Andy's acetate or a tape recording from the vaulted master tape of the other version, escaped Motown, and came to England. Some years later, I saw the acetate we had, auctioned off on E-Bay.

No I don't have any evidence that they are the same group. I think one or two people on Soulful Detroit said that is what they had heard. But they and I could have read that from Internet sources that were founded, originally, from rumours that originated from guessing, based on the fact thatboth were Michigan labels, and there was'nt a long gap between their releases. I assume, then, that The Oncore group broke up before the Flint group started, otherwise the Flint group should have heard of the Detroit group. The Detroit group was known for making local appearances in The Detroit Area.

Excello had records pressed in several plants at the same time. Those all look like designs I have or have seen with legitimate releases. Usually, the print of the boots looks a bit shakier, as it comes from a photo. Sheldon, Nashville Matrix or the like (mastering references) stamped in the track should be proof that its real.

So, only one of The Four Gents' SVR singles was leased by HBR. They were the same Four Gents that were on Detroit's Oncore Records, but not the same as some other, earlier Four Gents groups from other parts of USA. One of those was a Chicago group from 1954-58, who recorded for Park Records in 1957. Later producer/arranger Eddie Sullivan was a group member.

Weren't there also a couple of Four Gents' recordings from Detroit's SVR label leased and put out out by HBR?

That was pretty common. It's not much in demand. I doubt that it would cost much at all.

If it is a 3rd or 4th press run they wouldn't need any new demos, just additional store stock to fill the vacant store shelves because of increasing demand for a record that's being heard a lot on the radio.

Chess 1740 is from early 1959. I doubt that the poster was trying to use that as an example of a "late" printing of that design. Rather, he was only using that to show how a white DJ copy on that particular design, looks.

I doubt that Bob Cattaneo got those tapes from Motown. But I do remember that Simon Soussain had been in Motown's offices. I wonder if he got someone there to make tapes for him? Did any of you buy any acetates from Simon?

I've seen ALL those variants (several times) in my USA 45 canvassing days (1953-1972). They are ALL from the 1960s, but not sure if some weren't pressings for later issues. However, it seems really odd that one pressing plant would be using the dark blue Chess design 3-4 years late, just because they (Chess) didn't want to pay (again) for new label printing.

I disagree. I've seen many hundreds of Arvee records. I have most of the run. I have seen a good portion of them with white DJs that read "Promotional copy-Not for sale". There were a few colour variations (orange, pink, yellow, red-orange), which NEVER listed "Promotional Copy". I suspect that the colour variation was simply due to different colour schemes at different pressing plants, although the late use of yellow, might indicate a label change for the series directed by the company, itself. But, I am confident that the Pinks were store stock. I bought them from stores, at the same time as orange was being used, and at the same time as white DJ copies were circulating. Here's a WDJ of a Johnny Guitar Watson: Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I'd guess it was just one plant using the old label, probably at the same time as several other plants were using the new, black label.

And rightly so. As an author, I am certainly in agreement that no one should be able to give my copyrighted work away for free, when I need to sell it to earn enough money to live on it.

The US public has no taste. I LOVE their version of "Good Night Irene". That very same attitude is why we didn't get "Suspicion" onto the first (and sadly, the only) "From The Vaults" album. We were very lucky, after a lot of begging, to get a Spinners' and a Majestics' song on it (only after being forced to change The Majestics' name to Monitors, for customer recognition.

I've seen that one before, and other issues in that format as well. One of the pressing plants pressed up some Cadet records using that style label. I'd like to know the story behind it.

That purple plastic Maurice & Radiants has to be some kind of special reissue. I'd be willing to bet the farm that that didn't exist when the record was first released.

You might get a slight bargain on the record, and die soon after from poison mold inhalation! I wouldn't mind having that Shrine Record. I wish I could afford them.

I was listening to Black American music from the age I first had consciousness. My father listened to Jazz and Blues from the '30s and '40s. I first started collecting R&B and Blues records in 1953 in Chicago. I bought records from 1953-1972 (when I moved to The Netherlands). I started loving Soul Music whenever you define it as starting. Some people have a favourite "Top 100". I have a "Top 1,000". I liked "stompers", but also mid-tempos (popcorn) and beat ballads when the Northern Soulies looked down their noses at that stuff. I liked all the good Soul music when it was first released. By the way, I found "Naughty Boy" by Jackie Day, in a record store in Los Angeles in 1965 (the year it was out), in a 2 for $1.00 bin. In 1984, I swapped it to a British friend of mine who broke it at Stafford.

You could be right, Rod, that I told you that "Suspicion" was by The Originals. But, I think when you first heard it at my house, we still didn't know who it was. It was probably between that time and when I sent the tape to you that we discovered, from looking the song up in The Motown Recording Logs, that it had to be The Originals. I don't believe any other artist/group recorded that song (if i remember correctly). I still cannot understand why they didn't release it. It would have been a smash hit.

I seem to remember your getting at least one or two more C90 tapes from me after the first 2. ALL those songs were recordings I had, and wanted to get to you. There are even non-Motown Detroit songs on a couple of those tapes (Royal Ravens, etc.) that were sent only because they had been on my tapes with mainly unreleased Motown, and it was simply easier just to run off the whole tapes, rather than edit them out.

Andrea Henry is listed as the producer on Love Records. H &A Productions (Herman and Andrea) is listed as the Production co. who leased to Wand Records for its national dist. deal. The producer listed on that one is Herman Griffin and Andrea Henry. Griffin was known to have owned labels-AND, more importantly, he had possession of the acetate. I suspect that Love Records was co-owned by Golden World (Ed Wingate/Joanne Bratton (Jackson)) and Herman Griffin (or H &A Productions, with Henry included), and operated as a Golden World subsidiary.

"Sugar's Never Been As Sweet As You"-was clearly Gladys Horton's voice. I can hear it playing in my head right now, and one cannot mistake her distinctive voice. How could any '60s Motown fan have not recognised that? On the other hand, The Originals' lead on both versions of Suspicion is not very recognisable to most normal Motown fans. I can easily recognise Freddy Gorman's voice, but not Hank Dixon, or C.P. Spencer, or the others. That cut didn't really sound like any of their other recordings, so we weren't really listening for The Originals' voices, in any case. Also, The Motown Vaults didn't have a computerised cross-referencing system to find a list of all the artists who recorded a particular song. We could only find the songwriters quickly. It took a fair amount of digging to find out who sang on that recording. We had planned to do that, until the bosses decided that one LP would be the last. Not long after, Tom DePierro left Motown to form Airwave/Altair Records. I joined his firm as a co-owner, and, unfortunately, didn't participate in Motown's subsequent unreleased music release projects in 1982 (1 LP), 1983 (1 LP) and their 25 Year Anniversary LP releases (with much previously unissued material). The almost started over, not using many of the songs we had slated for future LPs, and stuck almost exclusively to the most popular artists (Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Miracles, Temptations, Martha & Vandellas, Gladys Knight & Pips, Four Tops).

I have one of those TamTown Boots with "Spellbound" and "You're Gonna Love My Baby". It was black print on white BG. No red print.