Robbk

Can one of you folk with the Grand Junction and Black Rock releases scan those for us? I'd like to know who the producers and arrangers were, and how long the songs are (if they are different, there's a reasonable chance these songs were re-recorded).

I have it on Epic, just as "Rena Scott". So, it may be a later version. Here's a scan: Uploaded with ImageShack.us I remember George McGregor talking about producing this. It's unusual that it was a small. independent production, and yet, the producers and arrangers on each side are different. MacGregor used Miller Brisker (Bonnie's father) as his arranger. The flip, "Set Me Free", was produced by Tyrone Hite, and arranged by Sonny Sanders. That leads me to wonder if both recordings were funded by The Grand Junction owner and he released it locally, and after decent Detroit sales, he leased it to Epic. Or, if the Grand Junction was a different recording, and Hite & McGregor took the newer version to Epic. Is the flip

Frances Burr sang Blues, and had a strong, hard-edged delivery. Frances Burnett sang with a smooth, laid back style. Also, the tones of their voices sound VERY different. Everyone in The World has his/her own unique recognisable tone. Only identical (shared egg) twins have extremely similar tone. It's fairly easy to discern different pepleor same people by their voices.It's pretty clear to me these are two different people.

What leads you to even suggest this?  Do their voices sound the same to you?  As far as I know, Frances Burr was a local Chicagoan.  Frances Burnett was born and raised in Philadelphia, and resided there during her music career.  But, I believe that she recorded for Coral (Decca) in New York.  I'm not sure if she came to Detroit to record for Berry Gordy ((as did Ken Masters (Decca).  I can't imagine Frances Burnett, who was fairly well known (enough to have appeared on American Bandstand), shortening her name to Burr, and recording for Sebon Foster's little Salem Records in Chicago.  It doesn't make sense.  Furthermore, their voices sound VERY different to me.

That should read: "Baby What I Mean".

Any chance of my hearing the recording on the "Exotics' cut"? Maybe I can help identify the group? It had to be a group with some relationship to George Kerr, Sidney Barnes, George Clinton, Gene Redd, or Eddie Singleton. Maybe it was The Serenaders, Parliaments, Prophets or one we know is related to those producers. We can make an educated guess at the identity of the producer, based upon the songwriter/s. George Kerr, Sid Barnes and Luke Gross wrote "Let's Get Together". So, I'm guessing that The Serenaders may have sung that demo. As you didn't mention The Serenaders as a guess, I assume that perhaps Timothy Wilson (whose voice is easily recognisable didn't sing lead on that one. Maybe George, himself, sang lead on it?

James Carr was a deep Soul singer from The South, and recorded in The South (Memphis, etc.). I don't remember him arranging. James Carmichael was an arranger, who worked out of L.A. before Motown, and worked for Motown once they moved to L.A. He had worked some with the same producers who worked for L.A. Jobete Music in 1963-66, before Motown's move to L.A.

Yes, Ervin Groves was "Big Boy Groves" in the '50s, and Ervin Rucker. He was a band leader and songwriter/producer. He was Lani Groves' father. He lived in San Diego, and recorded there, as well as in L.A. and Hawaii (his bithplace and first home). He recorded for Duplex, Musette and GME in the '60s, GME in the '70s, and I have some records by him in the '50s (John Dolphin's Money Records(1955), and a few other smaller independents). Here's a link to short blurb on him: https://www.sirshambl...ary_staten.html

Yes, I've seen that font on Tamla in the early '70s. I wonder if those "Q-U-" letters stand for "Quality Control", and it was a special test pressing made up for The Quality Control Department to listen to, rather than having to play a tape?

I've never seen a Motown pressing that looked like that. But, Marvin also recorded for another company (Columbia). I can't tell the age of that (looks maybe like '70s). But maybe it could be from 1981 or '82, which could make it Columbia.

So, then Tamla Records in Canada, was the first Motown-owned label outside USA, and UK's Tamla-Motown was the first Motown owned label outside North America.

I've only seen the blue, the gold, and the white D. I've never seen the grey nor the gold with the head silhouettes. The different colours must be from different pressing plants. I saw the gold and blue ones around the same time, back in 1970, and the silver soon after. I wonder if the gold with the heads is a later pressing?

After seeing the whole batch here, it appears that maybe the owner DID fund some productions with H.B. as producer, and also picked up a few productions on lease from other L.A. producers.

Thanks for the info, Bob. You've interviewed so many people from The Business who were around in Chicago in the late '60s, that I figured some of those interviews touched on Alteen Records. I even thought I'd remembered hearing some of that in some of the interviews. i had gotten caught up on your interviews to about 3 months ago. But, it's hard to remember all that everyone covered in their responses. Nice to hear that I've got the "rarest' pressing. Do you remember seeing another Drake and The En-Solids and The Robert Taylor releases? Do you think the grey Superbs pressing is legit? Or could it be a boot?

One of the NS collectors whose better records were known to the general NS community had his flat broken into and whole collection nicked. I suspect you won't get a lot of positive responses to this thread.

By rob_k at 2011-09-01

Alteen Records was formed in 1968 by owner Bill Meeks (who also had a commercial music jingle production business). Alteen ran into the early 1970s (1972?). Meeks produced the recording sessions, with help from Marshall Thompson and Billy McGregor. I have the following 3 records: AL 8652 Drake and The En Solids "Please Leave Me"/"I'll Always Be There" 1968 HP 3001 Sunday (Williams) "Ain't Got No Problems"/"Where Did He Come From" 1969 AL 3004 Superbs "Only For lovers"/"You Don't Care" 1970 I have seen at least one more Drake and The en-Solids It might be AL 3002 or AL 3003. And, I believe that there was likely another in the early '70s (1970 or 1971), on which McGregor also worked (according to his interview with Bob Abrahamian on his "Sitting In The Park" streamed radio show (BobA) on THIS forum. I'm sure he can tell you a lot more about Alteen than I, especially as I believe he has also interviewed Marshall Thompson and, possibly members of The Superbs, and maybe Sunday Williams (or, at least, people who knew them). If he notices this thread, you will learn as much about Alteen Records as is possible. I believe there was also a release on Robert Taylor (produced by Billy McGregor I have seen mainly this powder blue pressing of The Superbs record, but seem to also remember seeing a red one as well. I lived in Chicago at the time it was out, and never saw a silver nor gold issue. I wonder if those could be Bootlegs of British origin? Here's my copy:

At first, before seeing Prelude 1112 and 1113, I had thought that maybe that H.B. Barnum might have been the A & R man and chief of production of the label (and maybe even be a part owner). Now, it appears more likely that L.A. Prelude Records had no production of their own, and just leased master tapes from independent L.A. producers.

H.B. Barnum operated out of L.A. as did June (J.J.) Jackson. None of the names on those 2 records are connected with Detroit. Why would anyone think that particular Prelude Records was located in Detroit? Maybe there was a prelude Records operating in Detroit with which he got it confused? But, I certainly don't remember any Prelude label in Detroit.

The McGhees is on HB Barnum's L.A. label. Another Prelude label I know of was orange and was located in New York, if I remember correctly. The J.J. Jackson and The Jackaels must be the same L.A. label, despite the different number scheme. I doubt that they released over 500 singles.

I seem to remember seeing some Hopkins Brothers records in the '60s. I didn't buy them. Maybe that's because they were deep. Southern Soul (or, at least that's what I guessed them to be. Niot positive I ever heard one. That song is listed on Magnetic Records. Anyone know what year it was out, in what city Magnetic Records was located, and which production people were involved?

Yes, it's not like The Four Gents on Oncore sold a million copies and got a lot of Detroit radio airplay. I don't even know if they got any airplay in Detroit, let alone Flint. Apparently, The Four Gents in Flint didn't hang out in Detroit at all, to know that The other Four Gents made some local appearances there. And, likely, the first group was already split up, when the other started.

The seller described that record as 2 Detroit sides, but I sincerely doubt that. Derek Martin was still living in New York in 1967, and his producer and had worked only wit NY writers/producers for many years at that time, despite having been originally from Detroit and, originally in a Detroit vocal group. His songwriter/producer, Teddy Randazzo, worked out of NY, and had standing gigs there as a performing band leader. I really doubt that he went to Detroit to work on that production. He had been Martin's latest producer for Roulette, recording in New York. I assume that Randazzo recorded both the vocals and instrumentals to these 2 Tuba cuts in New York, and through one of Martin's Detroit connections (someone he knew years before, when he worked in Detroit, He and Randazzo leased the masters to Tuba records. When I listen to those 2 cuts, I don't hear Detroit musicians. Anyone here know who owned Tuba Records? I know their 1700 series (Navy Blue plain text labels) were distributed by Mike Hanks' MAH's Records. But, I'm sure they were at least partly (if not totally owned by someone else). I think that Hanks must have been at least co-owner, as all my 1700 series Tubas have MAH's Music as publisher. Looking at the producer info., songwriters and music publishers on the post 1966 Tuba Records, one might think that the Tuba 1700 series was a Mike Hanks label, which ended in late 1962 or early 1963, and had nothing to do with the later Tuba (powder blue & graphic tuba player design on label), which ran from 1966-1967. But, I think it's too much of a coincidence that both were located in Detroit with only a 3-year gap. I think that Hanks had a money partner in The 1700 series Tuba, with Hanks handling A&R and being main producer, and the money partner reviving his label in 1966, WITHOUT Hanks, having no in-house production, and just picking up (leasing) productions by local Detroit, AND also East Coast (NY & Philadelphia) productions from independent producers.

That acetate is NOT the acetate that Tom DePierro and I taped as a sample for review for inclusion in 'From The Vaults". Andy's may have been the original source of the other played version. Ours was a simple Jobete Music Co. publishing reference disc, and had a creamy white (off-clour-slightly yellowed from aging), which had only "Jobete Music Co." hand typed with a black taped typewriter, and "Suspicion" hand typed in the same font, in red (bottom half of the same ribbon (that had black on top)). There was no other print nor anything else on the label. "Our version" is the one that first went to Rod, and through him, to Dave Withers. Clearly, within a year, or two, the other vaulted version (from Andy's acetate or a tape recording from the vaulted master tape of the other version, escaped Motown, and came to England. Some years later, I saw the acetate we had, auctioned off on E-Bay.

No I don't have any evidence that they are the same group. I think one or two people on Soulful Detroit said that is what they had heard. But they and I could have read that from Internet sources that were founded, originally, from rumours that originated from guessing, based on the fact thatboth were Michigan labels, and there was'nt a long gap between their releases. I assume, then, that The Oncore group broke up before the Flint group started, otherwise the Flint group should have heard of the Detroit group. The Detroit group was known for making local appearances in The Detroit Area.