Robbk

In High School and during university years I went to parties. Almost every Saturday night someone had a party. They'd usually have most of the Top 30 R&B (WVON) chart 45s (brought by 6-7 people). At first, in high school, I'd bring some of my records, but stopped, because sometimes they got scratched, or there would be arguments over whose records belonged to whom. I never DJed. I was a pretty poor dancer, but, I guess about average for a "White guy". Most of my friends were African Americans. They tried to teach me all the new dance steps. But I just didn't have the rhythm. They were all such great dancers, I was sort of intimidated by the comparison. So, basically I just sort of girated around in my own, unique style (good thing no doctors were around-they'd have hauled me into hospital, thinking I was having epileptical fits!)

Wow! I had no idea The Bee Jays on Prime was recorded or mastered in Chicago. I had thought that little Detroit label would have done it locally.

Sorry. Had I simply turned over the store stocker, I'd have seen that there was a gap of 29 press code numbers in legit pressings, and that wouldn't have come into question for the "Audio Art" WDJ.

Yes! Maybe RCA (Eastern Pennsylvania). So, someone had those pressed up in the mid-late '70s, and then hand etched in all those Delta numbers, to make people believe they are legit WDJs from the '60s.

Now that you mention it, I've NEVER seen that print font on a Monarch record, and ALL of their pressings were on Styrene in 1965-66, as far as I remember. And the "Audio Art", and the different label layout still bothers me. More surprising yet, my original store stock issue has 58250 as its Delta number. Why would they have pressed a run of store stocks and THEN, 29 jobs AFTER THAT (ostensibly 3-6 days after), press up a run of white DJs for that same release? One would think that they had printed up enough DJ copies first, several weeks ahead. Maybe that's a boot after all.

Wow! Having a record company's playing cards would be great! Here's a record shipping bag design One-Der-Ful Records used: By rob_k at 2009-06-17

Yes, "Twine Time" was on both designs. So, the second was a re-issue.

Good! Then, we now can say, for sure, that it's the genuine article.

The print on The Audio Art WDJ makes me believe that it's an authentic issue. But I never saw "Audio Art" on that record's WDJ. I'd feel better about its authenticity if I could confirm that the Monarch number places it in the mid '60s, rather than the early '70s (which would make it a boot. Simon Soussan was getting records pressed up at Monarch around '74-'77. Can you please tell me the Monarch pressing #? It should be somewhere in the low 60,000s to have been pressed in the mid-sixties, when it was released. The Remarkables' follow-up, "I Can't Give Up On Losing You" had a Monarch code of 61230. They didn't have a Monarch stamp on the original store stock issue (at least on my 2 copies). They have only 7000 as the pressing number. They weren't pressed at Monarch. I don't know whether or not that release had any pressing done at Monarch. IF you look at your WDJ, and the Monarch code # is in the 90,000s or 100,000s then we will KNOW it is a bootleg.

I got mine for 10¢ at a store close-out in 1967. Herman Griffith's Record Shop, on Adams and West Blvd. in Los Angeles. Griffith was a DJ on Soul music station, KGFJ, and a songwriter and producer with L.A.'s Joker Records. There were 1,000s of 45s at 10¢ each. They had started at 50¢, and reduced to 25¢ before becoming 10 for a Dollar. To think of what I left on those tables makes me sick (even though I bought hundreds).

Looking back at my Mar-V-Lus records, I see that the explosion design was first. Mar-V-Lus started in 1963. One-Der-Ful had already been going from late 1962. All my early One-Der-Ful releases were pressed at Columbia Midwest, and have a "rainbow" design. The design changeover seems to occur in spring 1963. I thought that the style of the later One-Der-Ful label was analagous to the "explosion" design on Mar-V-Lus. And they seemed to be out at the same time. But, I had it reversed. One-Der Ful had started their changed design before Mar-V-Lus started, and Mar-V-Lus changed design later in that same year (1963), while One-Der-Ful didn't change. M-Pac also started in 1963, and my earliest are also Columbia pressings, with a fancy script, and after that a style similar to the later one, but with all yellow colour (maybe just a peculiarity of one pressing plant?), and then, finally, for most of the run, the yellow BG with the white "eye-slit' logo (similar to One-Der-Ful's). So, Mar-V-Lus had a label design change that the other two labels did not. Midas, Toddlin' Town and Halo all seem to have been subsidiaries (at least partly-owned by The Leaners), and Kell-Mac was distributed by them. But their unrelated label design changes occurred at different times.

The label with the flags is the earlier one, and that with the explosion is later. Difference was a change-over, rather than different pressing plants (although one or two plants may have used the older design a bit later than others. They DID have re-issues of their earlier "hits" also come out on the later design. One-Der-Ful and M-Pac also had a design changeover at that same time. All of them had slight variations in label design at different plants. Columbia Midwest (ZTSC) used a different design for all three labels from that of the other major plants. M-Pac had one with the same ink design but only colour difference (all yellow vs. yellow and white).

If I remember correctly, there is also an acetate demo sung by the songwriter, William Weatherspoon. I like that one better than Billy Gordon and Joe Stubbs. The Weatherspoon version is the version that has been recently found. It has the sweetest vocal, and if memory serves, the instrumental mix is a little "clearer sounding". So, there was a vocal by Dennis Edwards, one by Joe Stubbs, one by Billy Gordon (all for potential release), and then, in addition, the vocal reference track sung by Weatherspoon, as a guide for whoever would record the song for potential release.

I just went there, and I got the following message: "You have already reached your viewing limit." I have read about 50 pages of it. Therefore, I have to assume that the entire book CANNOT be read online for free. There must be a page and/or time limit per computer Internet connection (IP#). So, I suggest you read as much as possible, as quickly as possible. But, it is best to buy the book. It's a great book, that every soul fan should read, to get a better handle on what was going on in Chicago in the 1960s. I don't just say that because I want to spur on my friend's book sales.

Here's a link to "She Needs Somebody":

By rob_k at 2011-07-31

By rob_k at 2011-07-31

Here are scans of a few: Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I bought some nice records at Robinson's, myself. In 1955, if someone had told me I'd need to go to England in the 1980s to find '60s Black American music, I'd have told him he was insane.

No offence intended. I see that you had thought I was a Brit in America searching for Soul records "too early".

Why is this crazy? I think it's more "crazy" that '60s and '70s American Soul music became a "scene" (phenomenon) in which the prices of individual 45 RPM records accelerated to outlandish heights (making it almost impossible for us North American soul fans to obtain reasonably rare Soul music 45s when tonnes of them were being carried off to The UK. I am a Canadian/American (also Dutch), who grew up partly in Winnipeg, Manitoba, partly in Chicago and lived in Los Angeles for late high school and University. In Chicago, my uncle and father had two grocery stores on The South Side. I lived in South Chicago. I had always liked Black music. My father liked Jazz and City Blues. He had a lot of 78s. I already liked US Black music as a young child, as the radio music in Western Canada was hicky (seemingly uninspired) Country and Western music. We used to visit family in Chicago in summers and winter and spring vacations. My family always had stores in The Ghetto (South Side). I used to hang out there. I listened to Blues, R&B, Gospel (despite being Jewish) and Jazz. I started buying records at 7 years old. My parents took me to the thrift shops, where I bought '50s R&B and Blues records for 10¢ apiece. (naturally, I was getting more of the good stuff in Chicago than in Winnipeg). I also went to record shops and bought from their bargain bins. We moved, permanently, to Chicago in 1959. I started scarfing up loads of records then. I worked in my fathers store and most of my friends were Southsiders. When I started driving a car in 1963, I started driving to Detroit to look through record shops and thrift and junk stores one Saturday each month. I also had regular routes in Chicagoland, and traveled to Milwaukee, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Des Moines. In the late '60s, I took several trips across USA and Canada buying records. Yes, I KNEW what I was buying -WHEN I could play the records at the record shops. At the thrift shops, I looked for R&B indie labels, producers, arrangers, songwriters and music publishing companies who had work I had liked in previous experience. I have a photographic memory for large amounts of data, and so, could remember thousands of names and sounds of songs (a talent that seems to be VERY prevalent in The Northern scene among the big collectors and dealers (not so?). Naturally, I didn't know that "Naughty Boy" or other records that I bought in the 1960s would eventually become bid up in price to ridiculous heights by dance club disc jockeys and dancers in the 1970s and 1980s (I'm not Nostradamus). I bought Boogie Woogie/R&B/jump Blues/DooWop/Blues/Jazz/Gospel music in the 1950s and '60s because I liked it, and added Soul in the 1960s because I liked that. I didn't buy any records with music I didn't like on speculation. I bought precious few duplicates, mainly to upgrade condition, or a couple copies that came very cheaply, to trade for records I can't find on my own. I love Motown and Chicago Soul best 1959-1964 best (also 1965-67). I like R&B from the '40s-'50s. I like group records from '53-'54 best from that genre. I don't like funk. I stopped listening to the radio in 1966. I ALWAYS listened to the Black (Race music) radio stations. I have almost no idea of Caucasian "pop" music. I can count the number of Beatles and Rolling Stones songtitles I know on two hands and one hand, respectively. I couldn't tell you two songtitles of songs by Paul Anka or any of the pop stars. If someone were to point a gun to my head and kill me if I couldn't come up with a title, I'd have to recall a day of flipping through 45s in my head, bring up the image of the record, and, subsequently "read" what was on the label (which IS stored in my memory), but, to which, I had never before paid attention. For most of the records in my collection, I can think back and "see" myself picking up the record (e.g. remember where and roughly when I bought it). Again, I have noticed this "peculiar" talent in many record collectors. It's probably a requisite for searching through millions of records and generally not having enough time to look through all that one would like to see. In 1972, I started living part-time in Holland (full time from 1987-1995-and part time again from then even until now). I used to come to England on short trips. In the late 1970s and '80s, I used to visit friends in Lancashire. I used to visit John Anderson (King's Lynn) and buy some records, and John Manship, as well. Rod Shard and Dave Withers and Tim Ashibende got records off me. I also know John Marriott. I traded NS valuable records for rare Detroit Soul 45s that I had never seen nor had an opportunity to buy at a price I could afford. I did most of my record searching between 1953, and 1972 (when I started working for The UN in Africa, The Middle East and the Far East for much of the year, and headquartering myself for a few months also in Holland). I did still live in LA some, but only looked for records when Rod Shard or Dave Withers came to visit me. The thrift and junk stores and record shops' stock had "dried up" (Northern Soul buyers from UK had the ins to see the record shop and distributor stock first, and the cash to buy a lot more). So, it was pretty tough for North Americans to compete for it. In the Early 1970s Motown moved out to L.A. As a big Motown collector and fan (in the early '60s) I had visited their offices in Detroit, asking the secretaries if they had any DJ copies I could have. After they came to L.A. I starting getting friendly with some of their staff. They liked my taste in music. I ended up doing consulting work on some of their projects for release of previously unissued cuts. The "From The Vaults" project was originally planned for 5 LPs as a test, with the option for 5 more. It ended up as only one single album on Natural Resources budget label. We worked on that for several years, listening to a great number of cuts from the vaults (tapes and acetates). MANY of those acetates we had in our possession have been sold (and a lot ended up in UK). I "discovered" many of the unissued cuts that were booted in UK and played on the Northern scene (way too many to list) ("Suspicion", etc.) We had "Do I Love You(Indeed I Do)" by Frank Wilson, The Andantes, etc. and virtually all the Motown releases in Tom DePierro's office. I think that Simon Soussan got the Frank Wilson (and a few others). I won't discuss how he got them, because I don't know. (I was not party to any of the thievery from Motown). A fair amount of the research we did was also used to put together the other stray LPs with previously unissued material, and also the unreleased cuts that ended up on The 25th Anniversary of Motown albums. Most of the unreleased material we screened has now been issued on CDs by the various companies. But, there are still a few nice ones that are yet to come (Linda Griner, Edward Earling, Shorty Long, The Five Quails, and much great Gospel music by The Sons of Zion and The Pronouns). Something for which to look forward. In 1980 I moved with Tom DePierro and a few others that had worked at Motown, to Airwave/Altair Records (as a part owner). I was with them until 1984. But, I was in Holland and The Third World much of that time. Currently, I do consulting work with Ady Croasdell and, I hope, others at Ace/Kent Records, on "oldies" CD projects like "Dave Hamilton's Dancers" and "J & S Records(Zell Sanders)", providing label scans and records to record if needed, and information about record companies and personnel (if needed). I write and draw Disney Comic book stories and magazine covers for Dutch, Danish and German Disney Publications (since 1984), so I have little time to deal with music these days. So, Steve L. We WERE even. I didn't know who YOU are, and what YOUR background is.

I wouldn't call my purchasing it "dug out". I was a "Ghetto Child" buying the music I liked, near the time it was out. I bought so many records that I couldn't afford to buy them all at the retail 89¢ to $1.00. So, I waited for the non-hits to hit the 2 for $1.00, 3 for $1.00, 4 for $1.00, 5 for $1.00, 10 for $1.00 or 3 for $25¢ bins, and thrift stores and junk stores and furniture and book stores. I was a university student, not working, and with little cash. There were many thousands of records I had to leave (looking from 1953-1972) because I couldn't afford to pay the extra 10¢ to $1.00 each! Maybe I should have become a dealer and earn my living off of it. But, I went a different route. I'd rather be a cartoonist, in any case. Most record shops had a little 45 player we could use to play them. Ah, the Good Ol' Days! While I was in L.A. attending university (UCLA), I used to drive all over South Central on Saturdays, looking for records. Invariably, I'd cross paths with Steve Propes when visiting thrift stores. He usually got the better finds because he delivered pies in a truck and gave pies to the workers in the thrift stores to keep the new records in the back of the store for him to get first look.

I listened to it again, and it sounds tinny. The mixing quality is poor. But, as stated above, the sax solo is fantastic. Anyone know who played it? Anyone know who Cyril D. Roberts was? I can't remember if I've seen his name on any other L.A. '60s Soul records. He produced and arranged it. I think he may have been a low-level local band leader.

Ha! Ha! I, myself, was pretty old when I was a co-owner of Airwave Records. And, I guess an old guy who owned a record company (albeit only out of his house and not a big cash cow) could have a young girlfriend, too. Actually, in the article, the author has a question mark placed after the "Sr.". So he wasn't sure. I'm just guessing that Jr., at age 29, was Jackie's Boyfriend, rather than his father at age 55. Again, I ruin my own theory, as my current girlfriend is only 22. Still, I'm betting that the owner was the successful Lawyer, Johnny, Jr.

Pat's closed down near the end of the '60s or 1970 or so. So I doubt that. But, the record must have been distributed to several record shops in South-Central and South Los Angeles (Black Ghetto). Dolphin's of Hollywood, Sam's and Flash probably carried it along with Pat's. I looked through the stock of Herman Griffith's Record Shop (DJ with KGFJ and producer on Joker Records), but didn't see it. Maybe they were rather from the Oakland Music City find? Most of those stores closed many, many years ago.