Robbk

This is absolutely true. We had that copy of The Frank Wilson in Tom's office for about 5-6 years. Soussain was up in the record room looking for records for Tom to tape for him. I doubt that Tom would have let him take that out of the office, I think that Soussain just put that, and I believe The Andantes on VIP under his coat and walked out with it, never returning to get his tape. Tom told me that he found it was missing just after Soussain was looking through the record files. Soussain did get some tapes earlier from Tom (some bootlegs came from it). Soussain had hundreds of '60s Soul cuts pressed up at Monarch pressing plant in L.A. Several were facsimile boots. Most were new (incorrect) label designs, based on available label colours and fonts, just using the proper label name and label information with off colours, wrong font and simple label design. Others were pressed up on his "Soul Galore" label, possibly (or probably) without his obtaining the rights to those songs (although he printed"Licensed exclusively to Soul Galore Productions). He had records pressed there throughout much of the '70s, and into the beginning of the '80s.

The original isn't all that hard to get. Why would a boot go for so high? I guess that when there are hundreds of collectors looking on e-Bay, there are always a few that want a particular record so badly, they are willing to overpay for a facsimile boot, just to have the sounds on vinyl.

I Think that Harry Gates was Lee's brother rather than the same man using two different first names. Harry was listed as lead of the Caravelles on Detroit's Starmaker Records in 1962-63. His voice has the same distinctive familial tone to it, but, yet sounds a bit different from Lee's. Maybe it was Lee who sang lead on "Toy Soldier", but the song was written by his brother. We should have someone talk to some people that are left from that time (they are dropping like flies, and those who remain alive have their memories of that time growing dimmer and dimmer. Harry Gates was a writer with Ed Kaplan's labels, and with the Enterprise/Ruby/Heart/Dynamic labels, and worked with Mike Hanks and Carmen Murphy at HOB/Starmaker/Soul and with Joe hunter and Fred Brown. Surely there are a lot of people left that will remember him. They might remember his Dramatics group.

I hadn't thought you were disputing my theories. I am just bringing up questions about The Tomangoes' record, to see if anyone here knows the answers. From what source did the rumour that the backing tracks were from Bob Seeger's band come? I have heard that as well. I know that Gino Washington had connections to the "Detroit Garage Band Scene" as he played at a lot of Colleges and clubs with garage acts. that's how he connected with The Atlantics. He may well have met Bob Seeger that way. He may have leased the tracks from him. But, to me, the Washpan tracks sound more "Soulish" than any Bob Seeger cuts I've heard (A Squared and Cameo). Still, I don't rule anything out. Isn't Gino Washington still alive? If so, why doesn't someone contact him and write his difinitive bio?

Isn't Ed Wolfrum still around? He commented on SDF a while back (maybe 2001 or 2002. Some SDF people had contact with him. Maybe we can ask him if he remembers who the singer was? Maybe Ralph, Russ or one of the other ex-Motown engineers might still talk to him. Of course, having engineered thousands of sessions, they usually can't remember details like that from 50 years previous.

Yes, I'm aware of that. The Atlantics were the first band that backed up Gino Washington. But, no Detroiters that we know of remember The Tomangoes as a back-up band. So, did Gino Washington just get hold of 2 of Bob Seeger's band tracks, and just have Dusty Wilson (or someone else) record vocals to them, and call them The Tomangoes? Why have several different sources (some of them usually reliable) stated that they had heard that it was Dusty Wilson singing at least one of those 2 recordings, if it IS, indeed, not Dusty Wilson? I don't remember any other connection of Gino Washington to Dusty Wilson. But, of course, the DetroitSoul recording community was relatively small, and almost everyone crossed almost everyone else's path one time or another. I don't see why they wouldn't have met.

I dobt it. Bob Schwartz was a Detroit guy. Schwartz is to German as Smith and Jones are to English. There are thousands of unrelated Schwartz families.

That recording using the same backing track as The Creations' (Bridges/Knight/Eaton's) "A Dream" on Zodiac Records.

Is there a chance that Lou Beatty had it re-pressed in the '70s to take advantage of NS sales?

Yes, THAT'S the bloke. Give a listen to his Enterprise cuts, and then "Toy Soldier, back-to-back. I think he's the group's lead. We'll probably NEVER find out who the groups other members were.

I've seen both legit versions with & without Mike Terry credit (with Nashville Matrix), but never without NM. Was there really a coloured facsimile boot with no stamp (presses in the '70s)? If so, it must have had very few pressed up.

I guess I'm getting senile. There is clearly only one singer on both sides. He sounds like he "COULD" be Dusty Wilson. Not spot on, but close enough to make it unclear that he ISN'T Wilson. Nobody remembers seeing The Tomangoes appear in Detroit. So, clearly, they must have been a "studio invention". With no background voices, I wonder why Washington chose to list a group name on the record (rather than just a made up single-artist name (IF that singer was under contract to another label at the time)?

According to Ron Murphy, the Crakerjack group was a Detroit group, recorded in Detroit by Joe Hunter and Fred Brown. They leased the master to Juggy Murray's Sue/Crackerjack Records in New York in 1963. We're reasonably sure that Lee Gates (or Harry Gates (brother or same guy?)) was lead singer in that group. His voice is very distinctive (a brother could have had a similar familial tone). You can see Harry Gates listed as first writing credit on the song. He may have written the song, originally, and brought it with his group to Brown and Hunter, who "polished it" receiving the additional writing credits, and recorded the group and marketed the recordings, and got the record deal. Murphy also stated that Ron Banks was asked about that recording session. He stated that he and his Dramatics had nothing to do with that recording. Banks was only 15 years old in 1966, when HIS Dramatics (also from Detroit) recorded their FIRST record for Ed Wingate (Wingate Records). He would have been only 11 or 12 in 1963, when the first was recorded. Apparently, the first Dramatics were only a "studio group", formed for that one record in 1963 (or a group that formed and broke up quickly after their record flopped). No one we talked to remembers that first Dramatics group appearing around Detroit. Hundreds of Detroit groups popped up during the '60s, with different singers moving around to various groups. By the time Ron Banks' Dramatics started in 1965, the first Dramatics group was long disbanded, and hardly anyone had known of them even in 1963. Both Joe Hunter (a few times SDF poster) and Fred Brown were asked about the first Dramatics group. They stated that they remember the first group WAS from Detroit (if memory serves, they were seniors in a Detroit high school (NOT the one that Banks attended). But, unfortunately, they couldn't remember any of their names.

Love Has Gone Away-Combinations, Inc. -Arc Lark Spending Christmas Day With You-The Nibbs -Arc Lark same backing track

I think I remember him living in northern Germany for awhile, as well (Hamburg or Bremen, or was it Oldenburg?). I lived in Bremen for 5 years, and saw lots of posters for his appearances. I never knew that his daughter was a DETROIT Soul singer.

That guy is hard to track down. I've been looking for info on him for years (as I do for all Detroit Soul people), and found nothing. I don't remember even seeing his name on any other records (unless he's one of the Williams listed on The Creations' record on Mel-O-dy). I asked several Detroit people who had been in the business back then, and none knew anything about him. I don't remember seeing any posters for him appearing locally, in Detroit (that's a bad sign). His voice doesn't sound enough like anyone else to surmise that he also sang under another name. I'll be curious to see if anyone can find anything.

What was the source of the quote that Dusty Wilson was the lead singer (or only singer)? I've heard it from several sources, a few of whom are people who generally know what was going on in Detroit back in the day.

I remember reading, somewhere, that Dusty Wilson was The Tomangoes' lead singer. I don't remember reading that the remainder of the vocals were Bob Seeger's Band. But, it rings a different bell. If I remember correctly, there were only two "Tomangoes, and, maybe Wilson sang lead recorded on one track, and the other member, Wilson and Gino Washington sang the backgrounds on another track. I think they were a studio group only, and didn't make appearances (unless it was the two singers plus an extra making appearances in Gino's shows. I seem to remember that the second singer was a known Detroit singer, as well.

GENO Washington (of The Ramjam Band) (the US Serviceman operating in England) was from Indiana. GINO Washington was from Detroit. Washpan was his record label. The Tomangoes sang backup to Gino on some cuts. I assume, however, that he was not an official member of their group.

I had forgotten to look on the Magic City version. It has Williams as well. I wonder why her name is off the Big Hit? I think that's the latter release of the three. Might she have sold off her rights by then, for a cash sum?

But the fact that the later Odex is located in nearby Mississippi, leads me to believe that the owners are the same, and they re-opened their label again, a few years later (as had been done by Joe Von Battle with his JVB label, and VJ with their Abner subsidiary, and so many other labels (stopping operations for some years, and then starting up again). I think the similar name and really close locations is too much of a coincidence to be random.

Indeed they are different. Ernest Burt and Timmy Shaw are listed on the Big Hit. But Timmy Shaw's real name is John Hammonds (which appears on the Blue Rock version (that clears up one difference)). But P. Williams is added to the Blue Rock version. Anyone know who P. Williams is?

There were no vinyl releases, but three of their unreleased 1963 cuts (all produced by Smokey) have been released on "Cellarful of Motown": "Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde", "Company Time" and "I Could Make A Million". You'd probably not care much about them. they are all sung and orchestrated in a "neo-Doowop" style. they sound more like 1959 Tamla Records than 1963. That's one reason why our boss refused to allow them to be slated for release on Motown's "From The Vaults" series.

What was the first record to go "Northern",-I probably bought it. I was buying almost every uptempo Soul Record put out that I came across. I suppose it would have been obscure Motown release. I bought them ALL (including The Andantes on VIP). It was only Soul 35019 that I didn't own personally. But wwe had it in our office for about 7 years (and I played it a lot).

I love Richard Pegue's Penny/Nickel cuts. Are there a lot of previously unreleased cuts on this CD?