Robbk

Was Tommy Hunt's version recorded for Atlantic or Capitol? It sounds to me like Sylvia Shemwell is the most prominent of the girl group of background singers, so, I'm betting it was for Atlantic.

Tuff Records was run by Abner Spector out of Boston, with connections to Zell Sanders (owner of J&S, Dice, and Zell's Records in New York. Chess Records (owner of WVON (Rodney's boss), distributed Tuff Records and J&S Records. From Tuff's artist roster, as far as I know, only E. Rodney Jones, and Roscoe Robinson, were based in Chicago (and were signed to Tuff through the Chess connection. Bobby Copney(who was rumoured to also be Bobby Treetop), and most of Tuff's other artists, were East Coast based. I don't remember any of their non-Chicago artists,(other than the North Carolina bred Corsairs (who had a national following after their hit record, "Smokey Places", probably moved to New York), appearing in Chicago. Most of their artists were New York, Boston, or remainder of The East Coast based. Nobody I knew in Chicago knew who Bobby Treetop was. Treetop is too weird a name to be a real surname. It seems logical that it may have been Bobby Copney, who sang often, in falsetto. "Treetop" could refer to his vocal range often going as "high as the treetops". It's hard to feel confident that Treetop is Copney based on the voices on their two records. But it is also impossible to rule that out.

Great interview telling E. Rodney's story and about the start of WVON. Now I know why Al Benson wasn't with them for a long time - he was too independent, and wouldn't do only what Rodney wanted. A company couldn't run smoothly with 2 headstrong leaders going different ways.

I've listened to both versions many times back-to-back, and cutting back from one to the other after short snippets, and much of the time they sound to me like the same singer, with a few small portions where they sound like different people, with Wilson having a smoother, lighter, less gravelly voice, and The Professionals' lead having a heavier, deeper, rougher, more nasal and gravelly voice. That difference is why I have always thought they were different people. Melvin Davis and Edward Hamilton's voices were always fairly close to Wilson's, with that gravelly quality, sometimes I mistook one for another. I doubt that Hamilton ever recorded for Don Davis. But both Melvin Davis and Steve Mancha (Clyde Wilson) were Davis' two right-hand men at Groovesville Records, much of that occurred at the same time, and while The Professionals were with Groove City. So there is no real way to know for sure, without some documentation. But, we've been told by people who should know, that The Professionals only sang the "A" side, so we can be fairly certain that the "B" side was someone else (most likely Clyde Wilson or Melvin Davis. To me, although the 2 voices sound a little different, the singer sounds a little more like Wilson than Davis. People don't always sound the same every day. He could have had a little nasal congestion on the day he recorded The Professionals' version.

I always thought they were DJ records, with the letter "A" standing for "Advance", as in "Advance Promotional Copy".

No. I was referring to Jimmy Hart's "Tea House" on Blue Rock.

I use 6 commercial press run test pressings (as a general guess) because that's the regular number pressed up by the Detroit plant that pressed Motown's less important or emergency runs (ARP, I think), with whom Ron Murphy worked closely on their pressing his labels, and who pressed records he mastered, and from whom Ron acquired The Frank Wilson and Andantes issues. Naturally, a larger, major national label like Mercury, might request a few more copies than Motown, for different departments or different geographic offices. But, the amount probably would never be over 10, or less than 4 or 5.

Possibly only the 6 pressing plant test pressings were pressed up, and then suddenly, the pressing order was cancelled immediately after the decision to switch the release over to Mercury, and before the commercial press run could be started up. The same situation that had occurred with The Frank Wilson Soul, and Andantes VIP.

Yes it is. I've seen but one single black stocker in my many years of record spotting. Also, finding it on an original Detroit tiny one-shot indie label owned by Dave Hamilton would be an even greater find.

I'm pretty sure that the background group on "So Blue(Without You)" was The Dells, as VJ producer, Richard Parker, used the Dells on many of his VJ and Vivid productions, including Barbara Green's cuts. Incidentally, Detroiter, Joe Murphy had been the lead singer of Berry Gordy's old songwriting partner, Billy Davis' R&B Harmony groups from 1952-1961, The Thrillers, The Five Jets, The Five Stars, and The Voice Masters (Anna Records), and was Joe in the duo of Lo(Lorrie Rudolph) and Joe, on Harvey and Gwen Gordy Fuqua's Harvey Records. So, he had been around in the business since about 1950. The Dells(as The El Reys) also had recorded their first record in 1952. The Dells were a major back-up group for both Chess and VJ during the early 1960s. Their classy harmony was one of the reasons why both companies had such great recordings during that period.

I just meant that The "Call on Me" and "Just Believe Me" singer didn't sound enough like the voice on the Melic cuts, and really not quite enough to the voice on the Vivid cuts. But, I Could be wrong about the Vivid cuts. But, now that I listened again, it sounds to me like the Vivid singer IS the same singer as the two 80s cuts on the video recordings above. Now, I'm thinking they either they are ALL the same singer or The Melic singer is different from John Westley-Moffat. But, that doesn't seem all that likely, given that I've seen some Melic 45 alternate printings spelling the name Westly (WITH the "T"). It makes more sense that there weren't two different Johnny Westlys (both Soul singers operating in L.A. during the 1970s.

The singer credited above as "John Westley" is NOT the Melic/Vivid artist. The Quincy Jones vocalist IS L.A.'s Johnny Wesley. I don't remember Johnny Wesley as ever going by "John". But, I have to admit that I lost track of his career during the early 1970s.

I've seen a few Melic pressings where his name is spelled: "Westley". I can't remember which particular issues. But I also remember his name spelled that way on some venue appearance posters. I think there was general confusion due to the almost silent "t" as in the name Johnston, or that so many people saw the frequent misspellings, that people weren't sure of the official spelling, or even thought that he went by the other spelling for some portion of his career. Similar to Sam Cook(e), Dionne and Dee Dee Warwick(e), etc. I also seem to remember some late '60s and early '70s 45s of his that used the "Westley" spelling.

I've always thought that L.A.'s and Melic's Johnny Wesley was the same guy as Chicago's Vivid's Johnny Wesley. As Chicago's and VJ's Richard Parker was VJ's L.A. office chief producer, who produced both Wesley and L.A.'s Fred Hughes. I wonder if Wesley's Vivid cuts were produced in L.A. I never thought that their voices were from 2 different singers. Both his Vivid cuts and his Melic cuts were produced by L.A. producer, Lee Young. So, either Parker brought Young and his artist , Wesley, to record for VJ, or he leased the production from Young. Wesley, also went by Westley for a period, was a big favourite on the nightclub circuit in L.A. from 1964-70. The Four Tees were his back-up group. He had excellent range in his voice, and sang in different registers/keys for different music genres. He sang in a higher register for his sweet Soul/R&B songs, but sang in as much deeper key for his straight Blues, and Bluesy R&B. I really doubt that his Vivid cuts were sung by The Four Tees' lead, with Johnny in the background, or missing altogether. If that were the case, they would have had just credited "The Four Tees", or "Johnny Wesley's Four Tees. As I remember, VJ did have a couple cuts credited to just The Four Tees (who also recorded for Modern Records. Wesley's "Girl With The Red Dress On" on Vivid, is his most Bluesy Vivid cut, and is sung on a really low key. The flip, which is less Bluesy, is sung at a slightly higher register about half way between "Girl With The Red Dress On" and his much higher Melic Sweet Soul cuts.

Or, perhaps it was pulled even before any stock copies were pressed?

I found mine at Ray Avery's Records bargain-priced 45 shelves in Glendale a few months after it was released. It was a DJ copy, among about a couple hundred mint MGM/Verve/and other MGM-distributed labels. I don't remember ever seeing a stock copy of it, but I could have seen a few. That isn't a record that I'd have paid attention to whether or not it was a DJ or stocker. But, I DO remember seeing a lot of DJ issues of it. I never bothered to buy both stockers and DJ issues of Verve mid sixties releases, as I would have done for rare Detroit and Chicago Soul records. I don't remember either side being played on KGFJ in L.A. or WVON in Chicago.

I agree with this, at least for The Midwest and West Coast. I've seen many more of the Dee dee Barnes than the Cindy Gibson in those two regions where I resided. I only made a few record-buying trips to The East Coast, and never looked for records in The South(Southeast), So, I can't speak for those latter two regions. But, I was able to find and buy a copy of both records. I've never seen a WDJ of the Cindy Gibson, however.

"Did have Dee Dee Barnes on BLACK PRINT / BLUE LABEL a few years ago . " Was that one styrene? That's l.A.'s Monarch's west Coast pressing, which was the one we had in stock at Dolphin's of Hollywood, and I saw in quantity at California Music (Distributors), and in the other L.A. shops.

I've never ever seen the red stock copy of this, but seen many WDJs of it in looking through literally probably over a million or two 1960s 45s in my time. The stocker must be dead rare.

It actually CHARTED at #30! But, I'd bet that it got at least a few trial plays on many other Soul stations.

I never heard it on the radio there. But, I thought I remembered seeing a 45 of it. But, if I saw it in a thrift shop, it could have been brought there by someone who moved there from The East Coast. I think it got a few test airplays on KGFJ in L.A. But it certainly didn't get regular rotation play, or chart there. It definitely had a store stocker Monarch press run in L.A.

I bought that one when it was out, and don't remember it being terribly rare. If I remember correctly, we had it in stock at Dolphins of Hollywood, and I think they had it at Sam's, Flash, and Pat's as well. I think I remember seeing it in Chicago, too, at United Distributors. I never thought of it as "rare". I saw it a lot more on store stocker than on white DJ (which, ironically with regard to this thread, I WOULD have considered "rare"). I guess the recent rarity of 45s depends a LOT on how many of the original pressings got destroyed by the early 1970s. I'd be curious to hear from The Yank if he remembers seeing stockers of the Dee Dee Barnes in Chicagoland record shops around the time it was out.

I've seen many, many white DJ's of the Dennis Edwards International Soulsville, but to today, had never seen the original gold store stocker! I've seen hundreds of the Freddie Chavez white DJs, but only a handful of the powder blue store stockers. That's dead rare, too.

I've never seen nor heard that record. The voice sounds vaguely familiar. It has a sound that could be anywhere between 1965 and 1968.

We had one in The Airwave Records office non-Airwave Soul Records Collection. It disappeared along with the Frank Wilson and Andantes. I wonder if Tom sold them to Soussan? I have seen 2 other stock copies, but didn't want to spend collectors' prices for a non-Detroit/non Chicago Soul record.