Robbk

I don't have time to write a treatise on L.A.'s Jobete Music Office 1963-66 and Hal Davis & Crew's "Off-Motown" production, but, here's an excerpt from a thread at Soulful Detroit Forum: "Hal Davis didn't have enough of his own money to pay for recording sessions AND pressing up and distribution, so he got financiers to pay for those functions, whenever he couldn't "place" his productions (lease masters) to existing record companies, such as Bob Keane's Del-Fi and Donna Records, The Bihari Brothers' Modern/Kent Records, Joker Records, Magnum Records, and even Chicago's VJ, Tollie and Constellation Records, and tiny Doc records in Pennsylvania. Davis had records out on GSP (a Gary Paxton label), Alden Records, Wizard Records, Taste Records, Dee Gee Records, Tamara Records, and perhaps Brenda's cuts on Catch Records (not sure he was involved), because he got a financier. Those labels, therefore, were "owned" by the financier, and run by Davis (sometimes together with Marc Gordon, and Frank Wilson or Chester and Jimmy Pipkin). Hal Davis and his crew (listed above) and also including Willie Hutch (Hutchison), H.B. Barnum, Vince Love, William Powell, Ed Cobb, Charles Wright, John Marascalco, Al Capps, Herman Griffith, and Kent and Toni Harris, wrote songs for Jobete Music from 1963-1966 (long before Motown moved to L.A. But Motown also did some recording in L.A. during that period. Davis, Gordon and Wilson used some of their own signed singers and groups, to demo songs for Motown's Detroit artists, and also got some of their artists placed on Motown's labels. Brenda and Patrice Holloway, (Tamla and VIP), The Vows (VIP), Oma Heard (VIP), Joanne & Triangles, (VIP), Danny Day (Hal Davis-VIP), The Lewis Sisters (VIP), Little Lisa (VIP), The Messengers (Soul), all got Motown releases. The Versatiles recorded several cuts, but never got a release. Motown had hired an already existing production group. Hal Davis and Marc Gordon and The Pipkin Brothers had been working together and even had their own music publishing company (Finesse Music). Frank Wilson and the others joined them when Davis was signed to Jobete Music. They had an affiliation with single artists and groups they recorded and used them as demo singers and background singers. Those other artists that are not listed above (because they didn't get a Motown release during the operation of the L.A. Jobete Music Office) include: Gloria Jones, Mary Love, Sandy Wynns (Edna Wright), Barbara Wilson (Frank's wife), Pat Hunt (Brenda and Patrice's cousin), Jean(ne) King, Connie Clark, Pamela Baitey, Marie Gregory, Sonny Holliday (Hal Davis), Sonny Daye and Eddie Wilson (Frank Wilson), Willie Hutch, Paris, Ollie Jackson, Fury Vanta, Ricardo King, Charles Wright, The Autographs, The Marvellos, The Magnificents, The Soul-Teasers, The Watesians (with Brenda, and Patrice), The Dimples, and The Cinderellas. Songs that were rejected by Jobete Music, were published by Finesse Music. Songs that were not recorded and released by Motown within 6 months of their sale, had first rights to recording and release revert to their original writer/producer. In such cases, Davis, Gordon, Wilson, or whoever it was, would then have one of his own artists record a final version and lease the masters to an existing record company, as in the case of many Gordon/Wilson songs recorded by Mary Love for Modern Records, or several Davis/Pipkin songs being recorded by The Autographs for Joker Records, or The Vows recording a Finesse song for Tamara Records. Gordon and Wilson even produced a recording of one of their songs for The Ikettes on Modern records "I'm So Thankful", which WAS recorded by Motown artists, but never released. If they couldn't lease the masters to an existing company, they'd find a financier, and put it out on a new label, as H.B. Barnum/Gordon and Wilson did with "My Heart is Calling You" by The Magnificents out on Dee Gee Records, as (I believe) the Four Tops' Motown cut was released after the rights reverted. Window Shopping On Girls' Avenue by The Vala-Quons went to Ray Charles' Tangerine Records." This, of course doesn't go into what happened after Marc Gordon left for Soul City. I know that Motown writer, Jimmy Webb also wrote for them. But, likely that he didn't have an exclusive writing contract with Motown.

I've never seen a reference to Gracie Darnell being from Chicago. I don't remember her appearing there in the early/mid '60s in local shows. But, Ollie McLaughlin certainly had ties to Chicago. He was a DJ there in the mid '50s (WGES). He had a lot of ties to the music industry there. That is why he recorded most of Barbara Lewis sessions in Chicago (as well as those of many of his other artists). However, I don't remember hearing specifically, that he recorded any Chicago artists. Of course, we know that Mike Hanks went to Chicago and recorded in projects with Bob Catron (Geraldine Hunt) and others. There was a LOT of back-and-forth between the two cities' music industries. The Four Hollidays, Andre Williams, Don Juan Mancha, Jo Armstead/Mike Terry Giant, Fred Bridges (Brothers of Soul/Bridges-Knight-Eaton), Ric Williams(Zodiac/Aquarius) Ruby Andrews/Mike Terry, Motown recording with Riley Hampton at RCA/Andantes and Funk Bros. recording for Carl Davis, Pied Piper/Metros and others recorded at RCA, McKinley Jackson, Detroit tracks used by Gene Chandler's Maurci, Fascinators recording for Al Benson's Blue Lake Records, John Lee Hooker (and loads of other Blues Singers), Al Perkins, etc. The list is a mile long. He may well have recorded Gracie in Chicago (as he did many if not most of his artists at that time). But, I'd guess that she was a Detroit artist, and I'd consider Ruth a Detroit label, as Ollie, Sharon and his staff were located in Detroit. Ric Williams later recorded Ruby Andrews and Chuck Bernard in Memphis. Would you consider Zodiac as a Memphis label? Was it a Detroit label because they went there to record "Casanova"? Were both Aladdin and Imperial New Orleans labels in the early '50s because they recorded a lot of New Orleans acts in New Orleans? I have no idea why the Gracie Darnell cuts appear on Chicago compilations, other than that there is a reasonable chance that they were recorded in Chicago.

I know those line very well. It's a song I've liked a lot over the years. But my old brain cannot place it. I hate being old!!! It will come to me some time.

"Lonely In A Crowd" was the first to come out on Westbound. 1012 did not. There was no re-issue of 1012 as far as I know.

Yep! My Eldees' also has "Music City" stamped in (in addition to Nashville Matrix). It also has 95 etched in on both sides. ALL 7 of my Dynamics' records have "95" etched on them. So, I guess Dynamics used Archer in Detroit exclusively for pressing, and they used the Nashville Matrix for their mastering. I wonder if The Eldees', having the "Music City" stamper as well, indicates that it was mastered in Nashville, while the others were mastered in Detroit using a machine originating from Nashville Matrix?

Mine looks just like that. I bought it in the late '60s. I always thought it was original. It has Nashville Matrix (script writing) stamped, as well as D-1012A and D-1012B etched, and also 95 etched on both sides. Have you seen other label dsigns for 1012 (such as the multi-coloured 1013 by The Eldees)? I don't remember if I've seen it with another label design. I don't remember hearing that it had been booted.

Well, it sounds "muddier" than VG++. And it's got writing on the label. But, it's still a good deal at £37.

I always thought so (at least, in terms of being pressed and distributed by D-Town/Wheelsville USA and their distributor). I think they had different ownership (which may, or may not have had Mike Hanks as a partner). If I had to bet, I might bet that he WASN'T a partner, despite many of his staff working for Wee3. But, I'd bet that, functionally, they were a part of the D-Town/Wheelsville USA operations. I don't remember seeing MAH's Music as publisher, or even co-publisher on any songs on Wee 3.

I think that was in 1970 or 1971. Verve also has an oldies line, as did many other labels. As stated above, ever since 1960, there was a small, but significant market for oldies re-issues in USA, totally independent of any UK demand.

Excellent way to tell the difference. ALL the boots have the white edging (rim) around the outside of the label, and a less orangish tint in the yellow. It's easy to spot the difference both in the vinyl and the styrene boots.

I think Goldies 45, Era Oldies, Modern Oldies, Eric, King (Gusto) and Atlantic and Motown (Hitsville), and, I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple. There was a market in USA. Record shops had a fair amount of 45 oldies on re-issue labels.

There were oldies series out on various labels all through the '60s and '70s to feed the US market (Oldies 45 from VJ), Modern Oldies, Chess, Lost Nite, Lana, Era Oldies, Collectables, ABC(Goldies 45), Bell Oldies, Atlantic, Motown Hitsville, Eric, Hi-Oldies, Capitol Starline Series, UA Oldies, King(Gusto), Scepter-Wand Forever, etc.

You may well be correct that it was a '70-71 release. I just went by memory of that Era oldies series and later label design) (remembering that it didn't exist in 1965-67) They had a Golden label (Era Golden Oldies?). I knew it must have been out in the very end of the '60s or, more likely, the early '70s (but BEFORE the P 1972 dating on the records.

That re-issue looks to be from 1968-70 period. Apparently, Madelon Wilson leased it to Era to issue as an oldie, when it got some oldies play on US Soul stations.

I have 2 original copies. Both have "Tam 101 -G1" and "Tam 101 G-2" etched. No Sheldon stamp. 1719 Gladstone Ave. was the first address of Tamla Records, and was the address of Ray-Ber Music (and RayBer Records. That record was booted in the 1980sor early 1990s. I don't know if there were 2 or more pressing orders for local Detroit distribution, but as soon a many orders were coming in that Gordy couldn't fill, he made his pressing/dist lease deal with United Artists. So, I wonder why your copy had a Sheldon stamp or "Sheldon" scratched in the trail. I have NEVER seen "Sheldon" on ANY 1959 Tamla Record. NONE of mine have that, and I don't remember seeing a stamp (Sheldon or Bell Sound) on any 1959 Tamla. My first is 54030 from 1960. As the record was also mint, I suspect that it was a bootleg. Motown never issued any legitimate re-issued 45 of it.

Mine just has AP-760A etched, and "Sheldon" stamped into the wax. I assume this is the common pressing. My copy of "Forget The Past"/"Nervous" by The Fabulous Playboys on Apollo 758-1-A also adds the date: 6-61, and an insignia stamped into the trail (in addition to the Sheldon stamp) it looks like a sideways lowercase "m". with an uppercase "T" superimposed over it. The -1 after the record number indicates the version or take number. If I remember correctly, the other pressing of "Honky Tonk Woman" also has a "take or version number" (either -1 or -2). I can't remember which. I hope someone else here will have that issue. The original Daco Records (1001) issue has the Sheldon stamp, and S-1305.

1. The original Motown master tapes of Suspicion would be very valuable. Other Motown tapes of it would be valuable. I don't know what a second generation unauthorised tape of it would be worth. 2. I'm not a Brit, nor a member of The Northern Soul Scene, so I don't know the protocol for NS DJs. I assume that NS DJs could play a Motown reference acetate as an original. 3. As an outsider, I'm not the one to ask this question. 4. There were several makes of blank tape used by Motown. I don't remember seeing AGFA among them. I don't remember them operating in the '60s. Determining the location of production is quite complicated, and where the vinyl/styrene records were pressed and mastered is what often can be discerned by reading pressing plant code numbers and mastering stamps. The delta numbers for Monarch pressing plant in Los Angeles, and the codes for the Columbia and RCA pressing plants are pretty straightforward in terms of referral to dates pressed. Those for many smaller plants are less clear. But one could write a book on that topic.

I've only seen them on orange.

Yes, all the Kellmac numbers are filled in.

These quotes are all correct and accurate, as to what happened. There were multiple tapes of "Suspicion" in the Motown Vaults. The version of "Suspicion" that I played for Rod, and that he got on tape was from the Jobete Music Co. publishing rights reference acetate, with no group (artist) name listed. There were other acetates with other takes. There is generally always at least one Jobete Music and also one Motown Records Corp. reference acetate, and was often an acetate for each take or mix made (although many of those were destroyed or "lifted" years ago).

I suspect that they might have been the same group as The Checkerboard Squares. Both recorded instrumentals in Detroit in the early/mid '60s.

Nor have I, and I saw all of Ron Murphy's stock that he purchased from the warehouse that Ric Tic used. And I had been in Chicago/Detroit all through the period in which they operated and have worked at Motown for some years, and never have seen any label that looked like that. It almost certainly must be a boot.

No, it's not an anomaly. There were many less white DJs appearing over the years than pink store stock. But there were enough whites to satisfy all The Soulies. I wouldn't use the term "rare" when discussing white DJs of "I'm Amazed".

I saw a LOT of the legit white DJ issue over the years, along with the pink store stock. I doubt that one would have much more value than the other. I never saw a boot of either (but that, of course) doesn't mean it wasn't booted).

No desired limit. Money limits its growth. Space is not a problem (I've got that in 3 countries).