Robbk

The Marvello's cut was titled: "We Go Together". They were an L.A. group produced by Marc Gordon. The song was published by Gordon's Finesse Music. I suspect that if The Vahons (a Midwestern group?) sang it at all (are you sure it's the same song?), The Marvellos sang it first.

The One-Der-Ful/Mar-V-Lus/M-Pac year is the year when those labels' trademarks were copyrighted. The Motown years are the years in which that particular song was published and first copyrighted.

Possibly. But why then wouldn't such action be much more widespread with tiny labels?

My instinct would tell me that he CAN'T be the same guy, as The Tempests were on the East Coast, and he was an L.A. guy. He COULD possibly have left L.A. to join The Tempests in 1966-67. and returned in 1968. But, I doubt that. Their voices sound very close. But., of course, we can't say definitively that they are the same person.

Sure sounds like the same guy. With a first name of "Hazel", he must have had a tougher childhood than "A Boy Named Sue". My mother wanted to name me "Robin" (as in Robin Hood). Luckily for me, my father wouldn't allow that.

The Shiny Brothers (Doc 101) produced by Al Capps, Paris (Doc102) produced by Chester Pipkin and Frank Wilson, and Sandy Wynns ("The Touch of Venus") (Doc103) produced by Ed Cobb, all had Monarch numbers from 55,000 to 55,300, indicating that they were released in November 1964. I sincerely doubt that the Pennsylvania address was used as a red herring to throw Berry Gordy off the scent that those producers were "moonlighting". If that were the case, and they had EXCLUSIVE producer contracts to produce ONLY for Motown (something I KNOW to be untrue), why on Earth would they use their OWN NAMES? Why, in Heaven's name, would they release other personal indie productions on known labels in L.A. under their own names? That doesn't make any sense. 1) First, let's consider who was doing what. Ed Cobb released a production of his on Sandy Wynns on a song he wrote for Jobete Music, that had been recorded by Motown by Motown-contracted artist, Patrice Holloway. This occurred in November 1964 (Doc 103) (AFTER Cobb had quit working for Motown after his differences with them over not receiving label credit as producer (and, ostensibly-also not receiving producer pay) on "Every Little Bit Hurts" by Brenda Holloway. I am sure that he had the right to release an independent production using that Jobete song he'd written, on a non-Motown label by a non-Motown artist, X months (6?) after selling the song to Jobete, and IF Motown had chosen to NOT release it by one of their artists during that period. This explains all the Jobete songs by Marc Gordon, Frank Wilson, Hal Davis, H.B. Barnum, William Powell, Al Capps, Chester and Gary Pipkin, Willie Hutch, Vince Love and the rest of the L.A. Jobete crew, on Modern, Joker, Power, Champion, and other labels. 2) Chester (and probably, brother Gary) Pipkin, and Frank Wilson released the Paris record (Doc 102). Like Cobb, they had been signed writer/producers for L.A.'s Jobete Music office. Presumably, (similar to Jobete Music's New York office), they received writer's pay for writing songs, AND also received a salary as in-house producers, as production was needed to produce demo records that would be used later by Motown artists. 3) Al Capps released 2 cuts by "The Shiny Brothers" (perhaps a local, L.A. band that he used in his independent Soul productions?) as Doc 101. Capps was a writer/producer for Jobete Music's L.A. office (Jean(ie) King on General American (and writing on several other Jobete songs). All three of the Doc releases were pressed ONLY at Monarch Pressing Plant in L.A., despite Doc Records' Pennsylvania address. I think it's highly unlikely that those three producers were trying to hide "moonlighting" from Berry Gordy and Motown. On the contrary, it's pretty clear that NONE of the L.A. Jobete Music writers/producers had EXCLUSIVE contracts with Jobete/Motown. Clearly, they were allowed by contract, to produce independent productions and release them on independent labels, using the songs they wrote for Jobete Music, sung by non-Motown artists. ALL three Doc records were released in November 1964 (as proven by Delta numbers between 55,000 and 55,300). Doc probably used the Pennsylvania address because the financier who was found to pay for the recording and pressing of those records, had his home or headquarters there. It may be that this Pennsylvania financier was a friend of Ed Cobb, The Pipkins, or Al Capps, and agreed to finance his current production. The remaining of Al Capps, Ed Cobb, Frank Wilson or The Pipkins (all of whom had songs by artists that were ready to get released, or that they wanted to produce just at that precise time) may have approached the financier (through the friend) to get their projects financed in the same deal. 4) Ed Cobb, certainly completely gone from Motown employment (and contractual obligations), re-issued "The Touch of Venus" on Champion Records (presumably his own label (releasing only 3 records-all productions of his (2 by Sandy Wynns and one by Gloria Jones), in May, 1965 (as illustrated by numbers in the 56,900s). Cobb's own Equinox Music published all the songs other than "The Touch of Venus", and wrote all the songs except one by Marc Gordon (fellow L.A. Jobete co-employee). I assume he ran the label and found a financier or co-financier. This was a case of his setting up shop after leaving Motown, and using ex-colleagues from L.A. Jobete's office (Sandy Wynns, and Gloria Jones and Lincoln Mayorga). As "Love Belongs to Everyone" and The Gloria Jones record were pressed only in May, 1965, it's clear that the Champion release of "The Touch of Venus (using Monarch's same delta number (same pressing masters) was just a re-release. Marc Gordon's only involvement was as songwriter on "A Lover's Quarrel" (written while he was together with Cobb at L.A. Jobete's office. Therefore, I conclude that Ed Cobb's Champion Records never considered releasing Paris' record, as that production's masters were controlled by Frank Wilson and The Pipkins or, either of the two, alone (depending upon who paid for what, and their production agreement.

A large portion of the "Soul" groups of the mid '60s started out singing Vocal Group Harmony. Many of them were Doo Wop groups (who happened to sing some "Soul" at the very end of their careers (Dells, Dean Barlow(of The Crickets), Tony Williams (Platters), Ray Pollard (Wanderers), Van MCoy (Starlighters/Four Buddies), Freddy Gorman (Quailtones/Fidelitones), Lamont Dozier (Romeos/Voice Masters), Jive Five, O'Jays(Mascots), Big Dee Irwin/Ervin (Pastels), Pookie Hudson (Spaniels), Temptations (Distants/Barbarians), David Ruffin (Voice Masters), Volumes/Magnetics, Monitors (Majestics/Distants), Tavares(Chubby & Turnpikes), Billy Butler (4 Enchanters), Lee Rogers (Barons/Peppermints), Flamingos, Vibrations (Lamplighters), James Brown (Famous Flames), Smokey Robinson & Miracles (Miracles/Matadors), Barbara English (Kodoks/Kodaks), Gladys Knight & Pips, Isley Bros., Spinners, Marvin Gaye (Rainbows/Moonglows), Billy Stewart(Rainbows/Marquees), Jerry Butler and Curtis Mayfiels(Roosters/Impressions), Ty Hunter (Voice Masters), Harry Gates (Caravelles/Dramatics), Four Tops, Martha & Vandellas (Del-Fi's/Del-Phis), Originals(Five Jets/Five Stars/Five Masters/Voice Masters), Lee Maye (Arthur Lee maye & Crowns, Richard Berry(Flairs/Dreamers/Pharaohs), Willie Jones/Royal Jokers(Thrillers/Muskateers/Royal Jokers), Chi-Lites(Chanteurs/Presidents/Hi-Lites), Dynamics/Falcons(Playboys/Fabulous Playboys), Eddie Holland, Contours, Marv Johnson, Jackie Wilson(Dominoes), Clyde Mcphatter (Dominoes/Drifters), Ruby & Romantics, Parliaments, Serenaders, Joe Murphy(Five Jets/Five Stars), Daylighters, Debbie Dean (Peeny & Echoes), Artistics, The list could go on forever.....

I go much more with the bootleg theory than with the legit West Coast theory, as Wingate used West Coast plants to press Ric Tic issues, and they looked more like his standard Midwest and Eastern pressings than this anomaly pressing. Someone wanted to get this record out on the streets instantly (which means bootleg or Canadian pressing in an emergency).

Being a Detroit collector, I'm intrigued by this post. I have no idea what your post means. But, I assume that you mean that the exact same backing track used on the Volumes' vocal released as Audio Arts 6 was issued as the instrumental tracks alone, on another issue (or played on the scene from a studio demo or acetate from the original tape master) and was given a different song title. Am I right, or is there some other explanation?

Kapp DEFINITELY used more than one pressing plant. They had several variations of the same issues. They pressed in L.A., on The East Coast, and in The Midwest.

There was almost no chance of the authorities catching these small bootleggers. The "posed" as employees or representatives of the record company whose records they were booting. There was plenty of that going on all through the '50s and '60s.

The Canadian issue was on REO. If this was pressed in Canada, it was paid for by Ed Wingate, made to distribute to the US market, in a rush job, because all the Detroit-Area plants were booked, and he wanted them sent to his distributors immediately. Motown did that with a Marvelettes and a Miracles record (they were pressed on a solid yellow Tamla script print label (with no globes logo). That looks like a boot as well, but it was a legit release. This may have been the same situation with Wingate. Usually this happens with a big hit, when store orders outstrip store stock on hand, and the orders at ALL the local plants (Archer, American(Detroit) Columbia (Terre Haute, Ind.)) are backed up resulting in several days to a week or two delay.

Yours looks to be an original. The most common boot had a black "A", and was made at Monarch in L.A. and has a Delta number in the 103,000s (late 1970s). Not sure if there waqs a red "A" boot, but yours looks real and your Matrix numbers are original, as far as I know (at least on one 1960s issue).

I know that Motown did that. I didn't know that Ed Wingate did that as well.

BOTH of those have to be bootlegs. I was in Chicago and Detroit the whole year that was out and never saw that variation. I also traveled across USA that year and never saw it. I never saw any Ric Tic official pressings on that design. The original may have been a US boot.

I've never seen it listed as an official release. Maybe it was found on a studio demo, or a master tape from Lebaron Taylor's or Don Davis' boxes.

That's the Kapp Records logo, as that album was a Kapp record. Pied Piper placed no graphics-based logo on any of their record releases, as far as I've seen.

I can't remember ever seeing a special "Pied Piper" logo on any of their releases on RCA, Kapp, GWP, Karate, Giant, or even on that weird country production on that Golden World subsidiary label.

Drum/Elgin were NY/Conn. Metro Area companies. So, maybe that's the Hamster (NY) Jimmie (jimmy) Mack, or maybe that Elgin Record is too early (1959 or 1960?) to be the Hamster artist. Or, maybe it's a 4th Jimmy Mack. Just like all the different James/Jimmy Barnes.

Wasn't he from Philadelphia? We should ask Bobby Eli. He certainly was around on the Philly scene at that time. A little while back I would have asked Weldon McDougall. But, alas, he's no longer with us.

Yes, I have that Classics' record. Still, I am wondering if I did see a Chicago record with Jimmy Mack as an artist. It seems to ring a bell in my memory. I don't think it was just seeing Jimmy Mack as an arranger and songwriter on a few Chicago records that gives me that feeling.

Yes, it follows, and it is MUCH, MUCH better than "Test Me" (the faster, but "B" side). I would have kept it, so, I guess I never had it. I guess I never had a chance to buy it, and was unable to hear it. It's okay, but yet one of Bateman's poorer efforts.

That's what I had always been told. So it sounds like a good possibility. I'd still like to hear what Ralph, and maybe Dennis Coffey and Stu Bass and any of the others who were around remember of him. We can't ask Bob Babbit, as he's very sick in hospital right now. I also thought I had remembered seeing a Jimmy Mack release as artist on a small Chicago label (perhaps one of the Clarence Johnson or Johnny Cameron-related Master Key-related labels?). Or, maybe I only just remember his name as an arranger/producer or songwriter on several Chicago releases? Or maybe I remembered seeing the Hamster single and thought it was from Chicago, so it must be that guy? Still, I'd like to know who the Palmer artist was, if it is possible to nail it down.

I had heard from other collectors, who had some knowledge, and (possibly) from other people in the music industry that The Jimmy Mack on Palmer was from Chicago, and had always thought he was the Chicago arranger/songwriter that was the subject of "I'm Jimmy Mack". That's what most of us had assumed. I think it was Ron Murphy who told me that the Palmer guy was from Chicago. I think his recording was made by Mike Valvano with Mike Terry at Sidra's Studios or Terra-Shirma. Is Mike Valvano still alive? If so, maybe someone can ask him. Maybe Ralph Terrana knows who the guy is? I'll ask him.