Robbk

I am almost positive that you are correct.

Thanks. Yeah, i know where Altgeld Gardens is, a little southwest of Lake Calumet. I used to live in Homewood, after moving from South Chicago, it's not all that far from there. That group behind Gandy on the Roulette record is pretty good. Any idea who they might have been? I guess they were probably a group that Clarence Johnson and Johnny Cameron recorded and used often for backgrounds. Yes, I know Chris Bernard. I have a couple records by him on small labels (on is McVoutie).

As far as I know, after Carl Davis left Okeh, ALL Major Lance's newly-cut songs had their instrumentals cut outside Chicago. There were still a lot of Davis' Chicago productions left in the can, and they were sporadically parceled out to fill in Lance's releases. But the bulk were non-Chicago recorded. i don't even think that Lance's vocals were done in Chicago after Davis was gone.

Personally, I prefer Mickey Stevenson and Ivy Hunter slightly over Wiley/Hester (but only by a fraction). I also like Dean/Weatherspoon, Fuqua/Bristol, the Jalynne folks in Chicago )most mentioned in the Okeh post, and also the Billy Davis Chess group, and Van McCoy, Gordon/Wilson in L.A., /Hal Davis' Finesse group, including The Pipkin Brothers, Willie Hutch, Vince Love, H.B. Barnum.-Robert Bateman/Ronald Mosely/Richard Tee in NY. , Don Davis' teaming with Norman Whitfield, Joey "King" Fish, Clay MacMurray and Richard Street at Thelma, LeBaron Taylor at Solid Hitbound, and with JoAnne Jackson/Joe Hunter/ and Ed Wingate's crew with Golden World, Joe Hunter and Fred Brown at Mickay's/Ring, Bunky Sheppard/Carl Davis at Chicago's Constellation, Calvin Carter/Barrett Strong at VJ, Jerry Ragovoy & Crew, Bert Berns, Leonard Jewell Smith group-L.A., Weldon McDougall/Johnny Stiles, Jimmy Bishop-Gamble/Huff-Philly, Leaner Bros./Otis Hayes/Monk Higgins at One-Derful/Mar-V-Lus, Monk Higgins & crew at Satillite/St. Lawrence/Sack and Chess.

Wasn't Ted Cooper Okeh's head of production in New York? Carl Davis ran the office in Chicago. Ted Cooper handled the new York productions, and significantly more after Davis moved on to Brunswick. Okeh basically moved the bulk of their production back to New York after Davis left. If we're going to talk about Okeh in Chicago, we've got Carl Davis, Johnny Pate, Gerald Sims, Sonny Sanders, Curtis Mayfield, Billy Butler.

Little Jimmy Gandy-Roulette 7047-Was it released first on Chicago indie, Lock Records? It mentions it as a Lock Records production. Does anyone know who was the male group behind him? It was produced by Johnny Cameron. So-it may have been one of the Key-Lock or Master Key-related groups. Good late '60s Chicago "kiddie" Soul sound. Bob A.- anything you can tell us about this and Little Jimmy? Was he a South Sider or a West Sider? Or from the suburbs? Was he a regular group member at any time? I remember the name remotely. I never saw him nor the Roulette record when it was out. But then, I was only in Chicago during Summers, starting in 1967, attending university in L.A. I remember that Roulette had an office in Chicago for a very short period, and THAT's when theHenry Ford & Yhe Gifts records came out. But that was quite a bit earlier than this one. I think that office had closed down long before this came out.

Sorry. I got this wrong. Here is an excerpt from Soulfulkindamusic's Tuff Records discography, covering issues from 415-417: Tuff 415 - Bobby Treetop -So Sweet, So Satisfying / R & B Time - 1965 Tuff 416 - Ronnie Savoy - Pitfall / On The Spanish Side - 1965 Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / R & B Time - 1965 Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / Valentine - 1965 As we can see, Spector first replaced Treetop's "A side", "So Sweet, So Satisfying" with "Wait Till...." in the move from 415 to 417. THEN, apparently after deciding to issue "R & B Time" by Jones, and not wanting the two versions of that latter song competing with each other, he ran a 2nd press run of Treetop's 417, replacing the instrumental "R & B Time" with Treetop's vocal "Valentine". This makes much more sense.

I've never seen that before (or, at least, NOTICED such an occurrence), and I've seen a lot of Archer-pressed records. Interesting. Maybe it was just positioned wrongly on this job?

I don't have Tuff 415 (only 417). I was merely quoting the Tuff discography on Soulfulkindamusic.com, where Tuff 415 by Bobby Treetop has "R & B Time" listed as its "B side". Maybe "Valentine" replaced "R & B Time" on a 2nd press run of 415, BEFORE Spector decided to re-issue it with "Valentine" on the B side on 417? I suppose stranger things have happened in The Music business. In any case, I'm not trying to snow others here with "fabricated information" to come off as an "authority", I'm just another collector interested to learn what really happened when the music was being made.

I don't have 415 (just 417). I was only going by Flynny's discography. That lists "R & B Time" as the "B side" of Bobby Treetop's Tuff 415 release. Maybe it was changed to the vocal on a 2nd press run of 415, before they moved it over to a new catalogue number of 417? I guess stranger things have happened in the record business.

The E. Rodney Jones release on Tuff 418 was the very next issue after Bobby Treetop's 417. They were released at nearly the same time, a few months after Treetop's first issue on Tuff 415 (mainly due to a re-issue of Treetop's, removing his version of "R& B Time on the "B" side. I don't have it, just 417. But, I assume that it was just the instrumental track. Maybe Jones was playing the Bobby Treetop record on his show on WVON (I seem to remember that it WAS on his playlist), and he turned it over and liked that instrumental. So, he thought he could use that "rockin' instrumental" as a backing track for himself for use as a "theme song" radio "calling card", for better recognition from his public. Knowing that his bosses at WVON owned Chess Records, and that Chess had a distribution relationship with Spector's Tuff Records, he asked them to contact Spector to ask his permission to use "R & B Time" as a background for Jones' record, and used as the carrot (bait), that Spector could "produce" Jones' record, and release it on Tuff (rather than releasing it on Chess). This all seems much more reasonable now. The "R & B Time" instrumental on the "B" side of Bobby Treetop's first Tuff issue (Tuff 415) was replaced by the vocal, "Valentine" on 417. Maybe that move to 417 and a new, vocal B side, was to avoid having Bobby Treetop's version of "R & B Time" compete with E. Rodney Jones' new version?

I really doubt that Abner Spector would "steal' a track he had made in a deal with Chess or a WVON employee, and then use it to try to get a hit with a vocal Soul song version on his own artist. It seems more reasonable that Jones was looking for a "hot" track to use as backing for his cut, and he heard the Bobby Treetop record and picked that track. Then, because Tuff had had a relationship with Chess through its distribution, and WVON was owned by The owners of Chess Records, he got The Chess Brothers to contact Spector to use that Tuff-owned track, and, in the process, record, press and release Jones' record. Also, from the look of the Charisma pressing, it appears to have been pressed by Chess, within a few years of the Tuff pressing. The main font is the same (limiting its possibilities to no more than a few years after the Tuff release. But the font of the word "Charisma" didn't exist on records from that plant until 1966 or. more likely, 1967. So, I'd guess that The Charisma pressing is a legitimate re-issue by Chess, in 1967 or1968, AFTER Tuff was out of business (either as a favour to Rodney, or because of "oldies" sales demand). I don't think there is ANY chance that it is a bootleg.

So.... Do we know what this was? Was it the original, local, Chicago label? Or was it a pressing done later, by the rights-holder (Jones & partner), after Tuff's rights lapsed? Or was it Abner Spector re-releasing it, after Tuff stopped operations? I suspect it was a legitimate issue, rather than a bootleg, as the original stampers were used, and the label font, (other than the record company name) was the same. If it WAS a later issue, I think it likely wasn't more than a few years after the original (as the pressing plant and printer seem to have been the same, based on the look of the label and vinyl).

Maybe it's a legitimate re-issue done a few years later by Abner Spector (1968 or 1969?). They correctly credited Winlyn Music. Or maybe Tuff and Spector lost the rights (If it was an original Chicago project, funded by a Chicagoan, but leased to Tuff). However, the odds of that being the case are not great, as New York's Richard Tee arranged the songs, meaning that it is likely that AT LEAST the background tracks were recorded in New York. Perhaps Jones wrote the songs in Chicago, and maybe even recorded his vocals there (though my guess is that he went to New York to do that). The fact that Spector got 100% of the publishing rights leads me to believe that he MAY have retained rights to press the record. On the other hand, The listing of Karo-Dishi productions could represent E. Rodney Jones and his producer.

Yes, the Amy release was a re-issue re-release 3 years later, after Wiggins was released from prison, and resumed his making appearances. The follow-up on JW and IPG, and the 1964 release all must have been recorded in 1963, before he entered prison.

His follow-up to Sad Girl (was apparently released on the IPG-distributed JW Records, locally in Washington DC first, before being distributed nationally on IPG, itself). That makes it a lot more likely that it was recorded in DC or Baltimore, than in New York or elsewhere.

Yes. I can't believe I forgot that. I'm sure I've had at least 3-4 records on Jessica. Who were some of their other artists other than Willie Small and Little Edith? I'm sure I had a few by some bluesy, hard-edged Soul male single artists, but I can't remember their names. Were there any groups? I don't remember seeing any.

Yes, and Wasn't Wiggins popular there because he was a local of The greater Baltimore/DC Area, who appeared locally a lot? I'm pretty sure he recorded both sides there (rather than New York).

It looks like a Chicago pressing, but Jessica Records may have been located in St. Louis, as the Willie Small Jessica release was distributed by Del Record Distributors (out of St. Louis). His cuts also were published by Angie Music, and produced by Angie Productions (Curtis Smith ). Haskins is also a prominent name on this release, as co-producer and writer. McElrath was the other. Those names seem familiar to me as Chicago late '60s players. But, I can't place them right now. I seem to remember Jessica being a St. Louis label, and maybe Charles Drain's being associated with the label in some way. It looks like a Chicago pressing from 1968 or '69. i remember little Edith as an R&B shouter with a bluesy slant. She appeared some in Chicago (as many St. Louis artists did), but I don't remember her coming from a Chicago high school (so she may not have lived there, but only came for tour gigs.

Notice the word, "Washington", under the Jay Wiggins reference on the bottom of the paper insert. It was a local production finished in Washington, DC, and the master tape was leased to IPG. When it later was picked up by Amy/Mala/Bell, I assume that IPG lost the rights to sell it, and those rights were transferred to Amy/Mala/Bell. But, that isn't necessarily so. It may also be that they retained rights in certain geographic areas, or for certain period, when they were sold concurrently, or it may even be that IPG made the deal with Bell. I'd be curious to find out the particulars of all the deals.

I.P.G. WAS located in New York. I'm pretty sure that the Jay Wiggins recording was made in the D.C. Area, but was leased by IPG. Later, it was leased by Amy/Mala/Bell for better national distribution. IPG didn't have any producers or production staff in New York. They just leased already recorded productions from all around USA. The Dynels was produced by Ray Shanklin in L.A., and would have come out on Pan-Or Records, or Natural Records as a subsidiary or sister label of Pan-Or, had it not been picked up by IPG. IPG was similar to Amy/Mala/Bell, as they had no record production staff and only leased recordings. But, of course, Bell did that on a MUCH, MUCH larger scale.

There were two other recordings of "That's The Reason Why" in The Motown Vaults. We had had one ready for the "From The Vaults" series. It was significantly better than the version released on IPG, in my estimation. I think Mickey made a mistake, there. IPG didn't have a lot of releases on its own label, but it did distribute several other small-label independent productions from around USA (Florida, Texas, California, Michigan).

I think that must be what happened. I'm sure I bought that record before April, 1966.

I got the idea that Conlo Productions were located in Philadelphia, and they came about through an association of Chicago people working with Philadelphia people in Philadelphia, rather than Chicago. Most of the "nuts and bolts" recording people and artists came from Philadelphia. I thought this was Jerry Butler and a few of his associates, producing sessions in Philadelphia. The Conlo Records label has a picture of a well-known building in Philadelphia as its logo. Jerry Butler was already working in Philadelphia some in his early period on Mercury starting in 1965. That is the time of Conlo productions on Dee Dee Sharp and The Orlons. Jalynne Music songwriters, such as Barrett Strong, wrote songs used. But, they could have done that in Chicago. But these Conlo recording sessions took place in Philadelphia. I don't remember seeing any Chicago artists on Conlo Records. They were all from The East Coast (seemingly working out of Philadelphia). I also question the comment that Jamo Thomas came to Chicago to record for Conlo in the EARLY '60s. I think Conlo Records started in either 1964 or 1965. And, I suspect that Thomas' Conlo cuts were recorded in Philadelphia. He may have met his Satillite/St. Lawrence connections through Jerry Butler and/or Eddie Thomas, and they were the conduit that got him to Chicago. But, I suspect that he met Jerry Butler while the latter was in Philadelphia, working on his Conlo projects.

THIS jibes with my memory of Luther Ingram's Smash record coming out first, and Jamo Thomas' a few months later.