Robbk

Here's a studio demo for the 1970 O'Retta release:

Yes, that listing for Mr. Clean on 1002 is probably an inaccurate (bogus) listing. Now, I don't remember if my New Yorkers' on Radio City was in the 100 series or the 1000 series. But when I bring up the image in my mind, 1000 "looks more correct". I don't recall seeing a Radio City New Yorkers on 100 or 101. I can't help but wonder if the New Yorkers on Radio City weren't ALL on 1001 and 1002 BEFORE the change to Royal Knights, and then repressed on both same numbers, as The Royal Knights.

I found the thread we had on this subject on Raresoul Forum in 2007. Unfortunately, I had already forgotten where I'd re-shelved the Radio City New Yorkers' record by then, and so I didn't scan it on that thread. the Mr. Clean Radio City 1007 release has both sides scanned there. Tony parker and Chalky participated in that thread.

I wonder if i used to know where Primemasters was located, and filed it on THAT city's shelf? Does anyone know where Primemasters was located? Or if it had any affiliation with a larger distributor?

I think that 1001 was issued twice, to provide the name change: Radio City 1001 - The New Yorkers - You should have told me / There's going to be a wedding Radio City 1001 - The Royal Knights - You should have told me / There's going to be a wedding And then, I'm almost certain there was a Royal Knights issue of "Don't Wanna Be Your Fool" on Radio City 1002. I think I've seen that. I think the main question is whether or not there was a New Yorkers issue of "Don't Want To Be Your Fool" on Radio City, before the name change. There doesn't seem to have been.

I've been trying to picture my Radio City DJ copy in my mind. And, more and more I'm visualising "There's Going to be a Wedding", rather than "Don't Wanna Be Your Fool" (which I have on two different Tac-=Ful pressings. So, I think I was mistaken, and have only "There's Going To Be A Wedding", on Radio City, rather than "Don't Wanna Be Your Fool". But I'll keep trying to find the Radio City record to make sure.

Thanks. But, no, Primemasters distributing the Radio City issue wasn't the reason I re-shelved Tac-Ful.Tac-Ful. I haven't been able to locate them for about a year now. I haven't got time to systematically look through all my 45s.

I'll try to find it and scan and upload it. I just can't remember where I shelved it. I moved it and Tac-Ful from my L.A. small independent labels shelf, to a new location with the distributed labels of a certain national major, after finding out that Tac-Ful Records was, at one time, distributed by that Major national record company. Does anyone remember who distributed Tac-Ful?

Of course, "Don't Want To Be Your Fool" came out on Radio City. I bought a copy in the mid '60s. Mine is a white DJ with black printing. Ben Gresham re-released it on that label, after moving from L.A. to San Diego.

Repressing in the same plant generally got the same pressing numbers.

I had the same idea as you. And I came to the same conclusion. I think they may not be the same person, but the voices were close enough to not rule it out, completely. Like so many here, I'm sure "Treetop" is not his real name. And I wondered, too, if he could really have just recorded those 3 songs. I really doubt it. I would bet the farm that he recorded under at least one more name. My first guess would be that he's from The East. But, with Spector and Golsons's connections to Chess, and E. Rodney Jones recording for Tuff, I guess it's very possible he was a Chicago artist. But, I don't recognise his voice as familiar.

T have The New Yorkers on Radio City (Black print on white BG DJ copy). There was lots of interchange of the L.A. and San Diego scene. I think that several of those San Diego addresses were just the home addresses of entrepeneurs that did most of their recording in L.A. I didn't know that The New Yorkers on SCEPTER were from The West Coast! I thought they were from somewhere in The East. Of course, the New Yorkers on Tac-Ful and Radio City (although recorded in L.A.-because they were members of The L.A. Rams Football Team) had previously lived in New York, as members of The New York Giants (Thus the name, New Yorkers).

That film on The Aussie scene is great! But, it would have been nice to have them identify some of the venues, and others of the DJs.

That's true for me, as well. I've always collected ALL types of Soul music, as well as R&B, Blues, Gospel and Jazz. Of course, I started collecting before there was "Northern Soul", or even "Soul Music", and even before there were Elvis Presley Sun Records.

Yes. I, too would be interested in hearing about the scenes in The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, USA and Australia, and Canada (I assume there is one, at least in the Metro Toronto Area).

It gets MORE points for being run by a "shady" Armenian, who finally put all his records out on the same label for several years, rather than his previous practise of starting a new label for every 3rd -4th new production (Fascination, Orbit, K. O.., Ring, etc.plus projects with Check-Mate, Thelma and other small Detroit labels)). Like his sometimes partner Harry Balk, and Ed Wingate, and so many other entrepeneurs who dabbled in the music industry, Armen Boladian's money came from other businesses. But, it's good that he started a decent-sized label in 1969, when Motown was almost on the way out of town, so he could be ready to step into (help fill) the void that created. I'm glad that Emanuel Lasky and The Detroit Emeralds and other local acts had a place to go.

I believe that the version I like best was already released (maybe on Cellarful of Motown?). I keep regular contact with Keith Hughes, and some with Harry W. But, I'm pretty sure it's been released already. What is interesting is that in searching You-Tube, I only found the THIRD (and weakest!) unreleased version:

Yes, that sounds reasonable, that it may have come off the boot, from someone who didn't know it was a boot, but thought it was a first pressing. Then there is the problem of Tuff 415 and 417, and E. Rodney Jones using the track for "R & B Time". So, it might have been concluded, erroneously, that the change from 415 to 417 was to get the instrumental track off Treetop's release, in order to avoid having it compete with Jones' release (which wasn't an issue at all). Thus, the mixup on info on Soulfulkindamusic's listing for Tuff 415 (which actually had "Valentine" on the flip.

Ha! Ha! Where have you been? It just so happens we've been discussing this very question for 2-3 weeks, and it just died out a couple of days ago! The thread is about 20? threads down below this one, titled: "Velvelettes' Question". Below is a link to it: The Independent Producers Group and IPG label was located in New York. It distributed other labels from all around USA, and leased productions from all over. They had no music production of their own.

It seems likely that "R & B Time" being "placed" on the "B" Side of Tuff 416 and 417 on Soulfulkindamusic's discography may well be an error due to a misunderstanding in passing along information. I think that had it existed, probably one of us would remember having seen it. But, I'm guessing that the confusion was caused the the instrumental on E. Rodney Jones' "R & B Time" having also been the track on Bobby Treetop's "Wait Till....". That being the case, I find it hard to believe that that error wasn't spawned from a situation more tangible than that. otherwise where does the "B" side come in? I wonder if the original pressing of Tuff 417 ("Wait Till...") might have had the instrumental on the flip, but with the same title as the vocal (rather than "R & B Time". Spector did toss a couple instrumental tracks of the vocal side onto a few Tuff records ("Sally Go Round The Roses" being the most memorable). I can't really say that I haven't seen such a record. I wouldn't have paid much attention to it, if I had seen one AFTER buying my copy of 417 with "Valentine" on the flip. as I don't care that much about having instrumental tracks that I already own on a vocal/instrumental recording. I can'tt say that I remember seeing one with an instrumental B side. But I can't rule it out. I CAN definitely say that I have NEVER seen a Bobby Treetop with a flip titled "R & B Time".

Buddy Lucas was on that session as well. After listening to several of his vocals, rather than Mickey Baker, I'd vote for HIM. But, it COULD possibly be either. Still, based on sound evidence, I'd go with Lucas. His natural voice is deeper than Bakers, and seems to have a tone closer to that in Big Maybelle's recording. If anyone has access to TJ Lubinsky, I'd suggest contacting him. As the grandson of the former Savoy Records founder and main operator, he still may be in possession of the company's paperwork. He acts as a consultant on various re-release projects. So he might not mind looking that up. I know we had several members of Soulful Detroit Forum that had regular contact with him. He is a member and regular poster there. I have had thread post "conversations" with him. But i don't have the nerve to bother him with this question having not even had direct e-mail contact with him. But, maybe one of you has had some direct contact with him?

It sounds like Mickey "Guitar" Baker, and he played guitar on that recording session. It's a little deeper than his voice in most of the Mickey & Sylvia songs I've heard. But the tone sounds the same. Tone is inherited, and usually unique, or close to it. Pitch can be varied by the singer to suit the needs of the song. I'd guess Baker as the first choice.

I already mentioned Stevenson/Hunter, Fuqua/Bristol and Dean/Weatherspoon and Gordon/Wilson and Davis/Gordon above and Holland/Dozier/Holland was mentioned. So I'll add these (all assumed together with The Funk Brothers) : Smokey Robinson-(Tarplin/Moore/Rogers/White), Holland/Dozier/Gorman, Bateman/Holland/Gorman, Whitfield/Holland, Whitfield/Strong, Bateman/Sanders/Wylie, Paul/Cosby/Moy/Wonder

Yes. he was involved in some Chicago projects. But, I'm not sure if that started before his contract with Okeh was over.

I would guess that a local record from one area getting lots of play in other regions could have been the result of several different factors or a combination of them (being pushed by a local representative or affiliate, payola, DJs really liking the cut (with no other factor related), DJ having a connection with distant label owner, radio station owner/manager having connection with distant record label, artist, himself having personal connection with DJ, DJ's family or friends, or radio station personnel, etc., regional distributor having connection with radio station personnel, etc. I was in the business, myself. It was difficult to get anything played without throwing parties or "entertaining" prospective associate companies with expensive "gifts", which often included drugs. As to The Vow's Tamara record getting lots of play in certain areas of The East Coast, and almost no play in L.A. (home of the label), I have no idea. The connection to The East might have come through the owners of Tamara Records, or the owners of Colonial Records (manufacturer and distributor), or Hal Davis, The Pipkin Brothers or any of the Finesse Music writing/producing crew. I notice that William Powell wrote the two Jobete Music songs for Tamara's Cinderellas release. If those are the Cinderellas from New York (and I don't remember a Cinderellas existing in California), AND William Powell is the O'Jay's member, perhaps he was the connection. There are too many potential factors to do guess work. The only way to really know, is to have heard the real story from people who were around then. The L.A. productions being released on Doc Records in Pennsylvania is a good example of that. We can speculate all we want. But, unless someone who was around at that time reveals exactly what went down, we will never know. I can't believe that the producers chose a random Pennsylvania address just as a subterfuge for releasing music that was someone else's property, they didn't want to share profits with other rights holders, or to hide "moonlighting" they weren't allowed to do, per their production contract with Jobete Music. The same lack of ability to tracxe what happened, exists when trying to piece together the reasons for an indie record from a very small-staffed/ small-budget local label getting play in a distant region. Yes, Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Erie, PA, Detroit, London, radio stations were heard all over The Great Lakes Region in both Canada and USA. So, Canadian and US record labels from those cities shopped their records on both sides of the border, and had their artists appear on both sides (thus Motown artists appeared frequently all over The lower Peninsula (Southern Ontario) and in Toronto, and Canadian artists (Jackie Shane, et al) would appear in those US cities.