Robbk

Repressing in the same plant generally got the same pressing numbers.

I had the same idea as you. And I came to the same conclusion. I think they may not be the same person, but the voices were close enough to not rule it out, completely. Like so many here, I'm sure "Treetop" is not his real name. And I wondered, too, if he could really have just recorded those 3 songs. I really doubt it. I would bet the farm that he recorded under at least one more name. My first guess would be that he's from The East. But, with Spector and Golsons's connections to Chess, and E. Rodney Jones recording for Tuff, I guess it's very possible he was a Chicago artist. But, I don't recognise his voice as familiar.

T have The New Yorkers on Radio City (Black print on white BG DJ copy). There was lots of interchange of the L.A. and San Diego scene. I think that several of those San Diego addresses were just the home addresses of entrepeneurs that did most of their recording in L.A. I didn't know that The New Yorkers on SCEPTER were from The West Coast! I thought they were from somewhere in The East. Of course, the New Yorkers on Tac-Ful and Radio City (although recorded in L.A.-because they were members of The L.A. Rams Football Team) had previously lived in New York, as members of The New York Giants (Thus the name, New Yorkers).

That film on The Aussie scene is great! But, it would have been nice to have them identify some of the venues, and others of the DJs.

That's true for me, as well. I've always collected ALL types of Soul music, as well as R&B, Blues, Gospel and Jazz. Of course, I started collecting before there was "Northern Soul", or even "Soul Music", and even before there were Elvis Presley Sun Records.

Yes. I, too would be interested in hearing about the scenes in The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, USA and Australia, and Canada (I assume there is one, at least in the Metro Toronto Area).

It gets MORE points for being run by a "shady" Armenian, who finally put all his records out on the same label for several years, rather than his previous practise of starting a new label for every 3rd -4th new production (Fascination, Orbit, K. O.., Ring, etc.plus projects with Check-Mate, Thelma and other small Detroit labels)). Like his sometimes partner Harry Balk, and Ed Wingate, and so many other entrepeneurs who dabbled in the music industry, Armen Boladian's money came from other businesses. But, it's good that he started a decent-sized label in 1969, when Motown was almost on the way out of town, so he could be ready to step into (help fill) the void that created. I'm glad that Emanuel Lasky and The Detroit Emeralds and other local acts had a place to go.

I believe that the version I like best was already released (maybe on Cellarful of Motown?). I keep regular contact with Keith Hughes, and some with Harry W. But, I'm pretty sure it's been released already. What is interesting is that in searching You-Tube, I only found the THIRD (and weakest!) unreleased version:

Yes, that sounds reasonable, that it may have come off the boot, from someone who didn't know it was a boot, but thought it was a first pressing. Then there is the problem of Tuff 415 and 417, and E. Rodney Jones using the track for "R & B Time". So, it might have been concluded, erroneously, that the change from 415 to 417 was to get the instrumental track off Treetop's release, in order to avoid having it compete with Jones' release (which wasn't an issue at all). Thus, the mixup on info on Soulfulkindamusic's listing for Tuff 415 (which actually had "Valentine" on the flip.

Ha! Ha! Where have you been? It just so happens we've been discussing this very question for 2-3 weeks, and it just died out a couple of days ago! The thread is about 20? threads down below this one, titled: "Velvelettes' Question". Below is a link to it: The Independent Producers Group and IPG label was located in New York. It distributed other labels from all around USA, and leased productions from all over. They had no music production of their own.

It seems likely that "R & B Time" being "placed" on the "B" Side of Tuff 416 and 417 on Soulfulkindamusic's discography may well be an error due to a misunderstanding in passing along information. I think that had it existed, probably one of us would remember having seen it. But, I'm guessing that the confusion was caused the the instrumental on E. Rodney Jones' "R & B Time" having also been the track on Bobby Treetop's "Wait Till....". That being the case, I find it hard to believe that that error wasn't spawned from a situation more tangible than that. otherwise where does the "B" side come in? I wonder if the original pressing of Tuff 417 ("Wait Till...") might have had the instrumental on the flip, but with the same title as the vocal (rather than "R & B Time". Spector did toss a couple instrumental tracks of the vocal side onto a few Tuff records ("Sally Go Round The Roses" being the most memorable). I can't really say that I haven't seen such a record. I wouldn't have paid much attention to it, if I had seen one AFTER buying my copy of 417 with "Valentine" on the flip. as I don't care that much about having instrumental tracks that I already own on a vocal/instrumental recording. I can'tt say that I remember seeing one with an instrumental B side. But I can't rule it out. I CAN definitely say that I have NEVER seen a Bobby Treetop with a flip titled "R & B Time".

Buddy Lucas was on that session as well. After listening to several of his vocals, rather than Mickey Baker, I'd vote for HIM. But, it COULD possibly be either. Still, based on sound evidence, I'd go with Lucas. His natural voice is deeper than Bakers, and seems to have a tone closer to that in Big Maybelle's recording. If anyone has access to TJ Lubinsky, I'd suggest contacting him. As the grandson of the former Savoy Records founder and main operator, he still may be in possession of the company's paperwork. He acts as a consultant on various re-release projects. So he might not mind looking that up. I know we had several members of Soulful Detroit Forum that had regular contact with him. He is a member and regular poster there. I have had thread post "conversations" with him. But i don't have the nerve to bother him with this question having not even had direct e-mail contact with him. But, maybe one of you has had some direct contact with him?

It sounds like Mickey "Guitar" Baker, and he played guitar on that recording session. It's a little deeper than his voice in most of the Mickey & Sylvia songs I've heard. But the tone sounds the same. Tone is inherited, and usually unique, or close to it. Pitch can be varied by the singer to suit the needs of the song. I'd guess Baker as the first choice.

I already mentioned Stevenson/Hunter, Fuqua/Bristol and Dean/Weatherspoon and Gordon/Wilson and Davis/Gordon above and Holland/Dozier/Holland was mentioned. So I'll add these (all assumed together with The Funk Brothers) : Smokey Robinson-(Tarplin/Moore/Rogers/White), Holland/Dozier/Gorman, Bateman/Holland/Gorman, Whitfield/Holland, Whitfield/Strong, Bateman/Sanders/Wylie, Paul/Cosby/Moy/Wonder

Yes. he was involved in some Chicago projects. But, I'm not sure if that started before his contract with Okeh was over.

I would guess that a local record from one area getting lots of play in other regions could have been the result of several different factors or a combination of them (being pushed by a local representative or affiliate, payola, DJs really liking the cut (with no other factor related), DJ having a connection with distant label owner, radio station owner/manager having connection with distant record label, artist, himself having personal connection with DJ, DJ's family or friends, or radio station personnel, etc., regional distributor having connection with radio station personnel, etc. I was in the business, myself. It was difficult to get anything played without throwing parties or "entertaining" prospective associate companies with expensive "gifts", which often included drugs. As to The Vow's Tamara record getting lots of play in certain areas of The East Coast, and almost no play in L.A. (home of the label), I have no idea. The connection to The East might have come through the owners of Tamara Records, or the owners of Colonial Records (manufacturer and distributor), or Hal Davis, The Pipkin Brothers or any of the Finesse Music writing/producing crew. I notice that William Powell wrote the two Jobete Music songs for Tamara's Cinderellas release. If those are the Cinderellas from New York (and I don't remember a Cinderellas existing in California), AND William Powell is the O'Jay's member, perhaps he was the connection. There are too many potential factors to do guess work. The only way to really know, is to have heard the real story from people who were around then. The L.A. productions being released on Doc Records in Pennsylvania is a good example of that. We can speculate all we want. But, unless someone who was around at that time reveals exactly what went down, we will never know. I can't believe that the producers chose a random Pennsylvania address just as a subterfuge for releasing music that was someone else's property, they didn't want to share profits with other rights holders, or to hide "moonlighting" they weren't allowed to do, per their production contract with Jobete Music. The same lack of ability to tracxe what happened, exists when trying to piece together the reasons for an indie record from a very small-staffed/ small-budget local label getting play in a distant region. Yes, Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Erie, PA, Detroit, London, radio stations were heard all over The Great Lakes Region in both Canada and USA. So, Canadian and US record labels from those cities shopped their records on both sides of the border, and had their artists appear on both sides (thus Motown artists appeared frequently all over The lower Peninsula (Southern Ontario) and in Toronto, and Canadian artists (Jackie Shane, et al) would appear in those US cities.

I am almost positive that you are correct.

Thanks. Yeah, i know where Altgeld Gardens is, a little southwest of Lake Calumet. I used to live in Homewood, after moving from South Chicago, it's not all that far from there. That group behind Gandy on the Roulette record is pretty good. Any idea who they might have been? I guess they were probably a group that Clarence Johnson and Johnny Cameron recorded and used often for backgrounds. Yes, I know Chris Bernard. I have a couple records by him on small labels (on is McVoutie).

As far as I know, after Carl Davis left Okeh, ALL Major Lance's newly-cut songs had their instrumentals cut outside Chicago. There were still a lot of Davis' Chicago productions left in the can, and they were sporadically parceled out to fill in Lance's releases. But the bulk were non-Chicago recorded. i don't even think that Lance's vocals were done in Chicago after Davis was gone.

Personally, I prefer Mickey Stevenson and Ivy Hunter slightly over Wiley/Hester (but only by a fraction). I also like Dean/Weatherspoon, Fuqua/Bristol, the Jalynne folks in Chicago )most mentioned in the Okeh post, and also the Billy Davis Chess group, and Van McCoy, Gordon/Wilson in L.A., /Hal Davis' Finesse group, including The Pipkin Brothers, Willie Hutch, Vince Love, H.B. Barnum.-Robert Bateman/Ronald Mosely/Richard Tee in NY. , Don Davis' teaming with Norman Whitfield, Joey "King" Fish, Clay MacMurray and Richard Street at Thelma, LeBaron Taylor at Solid Hitbound, and with JoAnne Jackson/Joe Hunter/ and Ed Wingate's crew with Golden World, Joe Hunter and Fred Brown at Mickay's/Ring, Bunky Sheppard/Carl Davis at Chicago's Constellation, Calvin Carter/Barrett Strong at VJ, Jerry Ragovoy & Crew, Bert Berns, Leonard Jewell Smith group-L.A., Weldon McDougall/Johnny Stiles, Jimmy Bishop-Gamble/Huff-Philly, Leaner Bros./Otis Hayes/Monk Higgins at One-Derful/Mar-V-Lus, Monk Higgins & crew at Satillite/St. Lawrence/Sack and Chess.

Wasn't Ted Cooper Okeh's head of production in New York? Carl Davis ran the office in Chicago. Ted Cooper handled the new York productions, and significantly more after Davis moved on to Brunswick. Okeh basically moved the bulk of their production back to New York after Davis left. If we're going to talk about Okeh in Chicago, we've got Carl Davis, Johnny Pate, Gerald Sims, Sonny Sanders, Curtis Mayfield, Billy Butler.

Little Jimmy Gandy-Roulette 7047-Was it released first on Chicago indie, Lock Records? It mentions it as a Lock Records production. Does anyone know who was the male group behind him? It was produced by Johnny Cameron. So-it may have been one of the Key-Lock or Master Key-related groups. Good late '60s Chicago "kiddie" Soul sound. Bob A.- anything you can tell us about this and Little Jimmy? Was he a South Sider or a West Sider? Or from the suburbs? Was he a regular group member at any time? I remember the name remotely. I never saw him nor the Roulette record when it was out. But then, I was only in Chicago during Summers, starting in 1967, attending university in L.A. I remember that Roulette had an office in Chicago for a very short period, and THAT's when theHenry Ford & Yhe Gifts records came out. But that was quite a bit earlier than this one. I think that office had closed down long before this came out.

Sorry. I got this wrong. Here is an excerpt from Soulfulkindamusic's Tuff Records discography, covering issues from 415-417: Tuff 415 - Bobby Treetop -So Sweet, So Satisfying / R & B Time - 1965 Tuff 416 - Ronnie Savoy - Pitfall / On The Spanish Side - 1965 Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / R & B Time - 1965 Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / Valentine - 1965 As we can see, Spector first replaced Treetop's "A side", "So Sweet, So Satisfying" with "Wait Till...." in the move from 415 to 417. THEN, apparently after deciding to issue "R & B Time" by Jones, and not wanting the two versions of that latter song competing with each other, he ran a 2nd press run of Treetop's 417, replacing the instrumental "R & B Time" with Treetop's vocal "Valentine". This makes much more sense.

I've never seen that before (or, at least, NOTICED such an occurrence), and I've seen a lot of Archer-pressed records. Interesting. Maybe it was just positioned wrongly on this job?

I don't have Tuff 415 (only 417). I was merely quoting the Tuff discography on Soulfulkindamusic.com, where Tuff 415 by Bobby Treetop has "R & B Time" listed as its "B side". Maybe "Valentine" replaced "R & B Time" on a 2nd press run of 415, BEFORE Spector decided to re-issue it with "Valentine" on the B side on 417? I suppose stranger things have happened in The Music business. In any case, I'm not trying to snow others here with "fabricated information" to come off as an "authority", I'm just another collector interested to learn what really happened when the music was being made.