Robbk

I agree. 1974-1983 seems to be the possible window for G&G. But, I still wonder about what W. Glenn's part in everything was.

I've just noticed a 2012 comment on Discogs by 313Classiccs, stating the following: In a later comment, he stated that this G&G record was issued in 1971. I've seen the name, "Gil Roberts" before, connected with '60s Detroit Soul music (and, perhaps, even Motown?), but, unfortunately, I can't remember where, or in what capacity or context.

I am sure that " 19,8,83 " refers to August 19th, 1983. What else could that string of numerals be? So, IF that makes it likely to have been a Canadian issue, why is the legally required "Manufactured in Canada" statement not written on the label's edge? It leads to the implication that it WAS, after all, a bootleg (Glenn pressing it up by himself, without Gino's participation. But, why would Glenn have pressed it in Detroit, rather than Windsor?

Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey would have nothing to do with the producing record company in Windsor in any case, unless they, themselves, were the projects' financiers, and had set up a business there, as the recording sessions were done in Detroit. The initiation of the projects came solely from Gino, who resided and worked only in Detroit. And the Perfecta Records label was his idea. Whoever the financier was on the recordings credited with the Windsor, Ontario record production company, must have resided, or, at least operated the credited business, in Canada. As the recording AND pressing and distribution took place in Detroit, the only part for the Windsor company to play was financing the projects in question. The first Perfecta issue may not have been connected with the Windsor company and its owner, or, it may have, with the production credit having been left off by accident. It would seem very odd to me, for Gino to set up a subsidiary label for just a couple of releases, during a time when his ATAC International Records operated, without going out of business. I still think that Perfecta was set up as a subsidiary label, because it was co-owned by Gino and someone else, because Washington didn't have enough money to issue those few records. He certainly didn't need to have another label because his ATAC records were flooding the charts and DJs were refusing to play so many different records of his.

I also have the G+G etched in the trailer on ATAC International AT 2743. So, apparently, W. Glenn was involved in projects with Gino for, at least a few years, leading to releases on ATAC, Perfecta, and G&G. Glenn was credited as producer on the Perfecta issues, and they were listed as "W. Glenn Record Co.", which leads me to believe that Glenn had a financial participation in those projects, rather than a technical one, given that Gino probably ran his recording sessions, and they were recorded in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and the records were also pressed in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and also the fact that none of us ever heard of Glenn as a producer or arranger of other records. It seems most logical to me, that, all the times G+G appears on a Gino Washington record, it is because Gino had to get the master from Glenn, who had kept it himself, because HE (Glenn) had financed that recording session (and in doing so, had legally become a participant in any future re-issue project). We have no hard evidence that the G&G issue came out later than the Perfecta. But because I saw lots of the Perfecta issues, and ATAC International issues, before I left USA in the mid 1970s, and never again looked for records in Detroit, and never saw even one G&G issue, and the latter has what looks like numbers that relate to the year 1983, I tend to suspect that the Perfecta issue came out in early 1970, and the G&G was a re-issue in 1983 (Seemingly with Gino and Glenn both actively participating).

Are you sure it is not, rather, 243? My copies of the Perfecta version, AND ATAC International 2743 "It's Winter (But I Have Spring Fever)" BOTH have 243 etched on them.

Does that look something like a stylised italic script single note, with a detached, slightly-curved tail on top, aiming to the right (larger than the letters "xm" to its right, before the word "detroit", written with a lower-case "d), shaped a bit like the note symbol? Or is it an etched oval, with an italic (I Y), or a fancy, italic script upper case (H) inside?

So, it seems that Gino re-released those 2 songs on G&G in 1983. Maybe he still had to do it in partnership with Glenn, because the latter had paid for their recording and original pressing, and so, kept the masters. So, he won a lot of money at the track, but still didn't have enough to both record and press up his new 45. Thus, he had to partner up with Glenn; and he set up a new subsidiary to ATAC (Perfecta) to represent that partnership. And yet, he had partnered with Glenn on other projects, but issued those recordings on ATAC. The record business has always been interesting and often surprising.

Yes, the cut of the grooves on the RPR ATAC issues looks like Monarch, but the plastic is vinyl, rather than the usual styrene for that period. So, I still wonder about the history of this release. Also, I find it hard to believe that it would get leased to Mala BEFORE first getting some test marketing done locally. Usually, bigger nationally-distributed labels would want to see some evidence of a song's popularity and likability (generally from being issued locally), cutting down the risk of spending money distributing and warehousing a "dud". This would be especially true of Amy-Mala-Bell, which was one of the few (if not the ONLY) major labels that had virtually NO in-house producers or music production staffers, who could assess, at least preliminarily, the potential for a song to sell well.

The word "Archer" is etched on mine, as is the word "Detroit", and as is also the number: 243. And now, I also notice, on the opposite side, a musical note. (or a fancy letter "d") and x m etched just before the word "Detroit', as is AT 2880. Everything is etched by hand. Same is true for my later, Detroit pressed ATAC records. There is nothing machine-stamped on any of them. They were pressed at Archer, rather than Pioneer. In fact, (this is really interesting).... EVEN the seemingly L.A. ATAC records, distributed by RPR in Los Angeles, have the word "Archer" etched in their trailers, despite having label designs that look like RPR's, used on their records pressed by L.A.'s Monarch pressing plant. Could they have been pressed at archer in Detroit, and shipped to RPR in L.A. for West Coast distribution, and had RPR put labels on them from their own printer??? I know that I got the Perfecta record between 1969 and 1971, or the first half of 1972, at the latest. But, as far as I remember Archer was pressing 45 records all the years from the mid '60s through, at least, the end of The '80s. And, I believe they pressed L.P.s into the 2000s, or, at least, started pressing again in the 2,000s. I agree that we should find out if the ATAC pressing info matches. No, I have no idea what engraving/etching or stamp marks were used commonly in US pressing plants during the 1970s, especially after 1972, as I was mostly living in Africa, The Middle East, and Holland, at that time, and didn't look for records anymore, when visiting family in US and Canada. But, I also had cut down my looking for records in 1969-72, as I had stopped listening to Soul music radio stations, and didn't like most of what was played, and just bought a few (mostly Motown) records that I liked at record shops.

I already listed what was etched on the the runout of my Perfecta copy, in a post up above. It said Archer, Detroit 243. Do you want me to post a large, high-res scan of it?

I forgot that I got the AT 2880 around 1969 or 1970. But we have the Archer pressing number (243). So we can look up its pressing date. I'm sure I've seen Archer's pressing plant list in recent years, so it must still be available to us online. We may even have a copy of it on this forum. I've seen at least 3 Perfecta 45s, ALL by Gino Washington. I think the other two were early to mid '70s releases. Apparently, for whatever reason, they were interspersed between later ATAC issues (maybe Gino had Glenn finance, record and issue them whenever he was short on cash?).

I don't remember Gino ever going by the stage name, "Sir George". That doesn't seem like something he would do. So, at, first, I thought that maybe the G&G was just issued by Glenn, alone, disguising the artist name, to make some quick cash, pressing it up in Windsor. But, the fact that I can't remember a post 1966 Canadian record not having the "manufactured in Canada" statement on its edges makes me wonder about that.

Thanks. That implies that the OTHER George Washington wasn't involved at all. Which means that Gino produced the original session, like he did most or all of the later ATAC and Perfecta sessions. Glenn was the credited producer (probably executive producer) on the Perfecta original (He and Glenn probably ran the session together. My copy has AT 2880 (an ATAC record number), and "Archer 243" and "Detroit" etched into the runout. So, the probably had the recording session in Windsor (maybe Glenn had his own recording studio - one of the reasons Gino partnered up with him?). I would guess that Gino intended to put this out on his ATAC label. I think this first issue, with "You Should Have Been True" on the B side, was released in 1969. But, I think the Perfecta re-issue was mid '70s. Glenn had a record company in Windsor, Ontario, across the river. I guess that Gino didn't have the cash necessary to cover the recording session and pressing, and either had a previous connection with Glenn, or couldn't find a financier in Detroit to take it on. It seems that one of Gino's own band did the arranging. "The Bar Keys" were credited. I guess they were his show band in 1969. He had The Atlantics for a long time, from his start in 1962 through at least 1966. I think they were his friends from high school.

I saw lots of Perfectas during the 1970s in Detroit and Chicago, but never saw The G&G. I stopped looking for records in USA after 1976, when I started staying mostly in my 3rd World UN project country, and taking my R&R months in Holland. So, the G&G must be'80s or '90s. I think Perfecta started in 1969, and extended through the middle '70s, with another couple issues ('74, & '75?). I wonder why Gino chose to register his record companies of Perfecta and G&G in Canada (across the Detroit River, in Canada? I assume G&G was a Canadian label, and was pressed there, in Windsor, too. Also, I wonder who the co-owner of the label, and, possibly, producer of the recording session, with name starting with "G", was. I suspect it was Detroit's OTHER George Washington, who was a member of several Detroit R&B/Soul singing groups (Twilighters, Tears, Four Voices, and others), and songwriter, who worked a lot for Tony Ewing's labels (Chex/Volume). It is also possible that George (Gino) Washington also was producer, and then the other "G" owner was Othea George (also Detroit R&B Soul singer, songwriter, and sometimes producer), who also worked for Ewing and sung in several of the groups that contained the non-Gino George Washington. Anyone here know much about the Perfecta and G&G labels' operations, and who the other "G" was?

Yes, it was. It only got sporadic play for a couple weeks in Chicago, and didn't chart. It was played a reasonable amount in Detroit. But Motown didn't give it much marketing push. In 1964, Linda Griner was still in school, and too young to sing in nightclubs. So, Motown knew she couldn't go out on the road to promote her record. And she lived in The Washington D.C. area, so, she couldn't make appearances in Detroit.

Thanks.

So, then this record's producer, W.S. Despenza, is Barry's brother.

Thanks. But was she Barry's wife, sister, daughter, or sister-in-law (wife of Barry's brother, whose name starts with a "W", and who produced the record, or his niece(daughter of his brother, "W.S.)? Or is "W.S. Despenza" actually Barry, with those as his legal name initials, and "Barry" is his middle name, or a nickname?

Looking closer at the credits on this record I never liked, and seeing two Despenzas who aren't producer, Barry, AND always wondering who Chicago singer "Paulette" was, I wonder if she was Barry's sister-in-law, as "P. Despenza" wrote the song (could that be Paulette Despenza?), and a W. S. Despenza, produced it, rather than Barry. But Despan Music was Barry's own in-house publishing company. I'll have to admit that I never met Barry, or knew anyone who knew him well. So I don't know anything about his family. Can anyone here fill me in?

I don't think it sounds remotely enough to be related to "(You Better) Do It Right Now", which is a significantly slower tempoed bluesy sounding song. The melody is different, too. It does definitely sound like it was a Chicago recording, rather than a Dave Hamilton Detroit recording. But, I have no idea to which song it belongs.

And Berry knew Marv Johnson from boxing, too; which is why Marv was able to get the helper job at Berry's Jazz record shop. I think that their mutual friend, Jackie Wilson's old boxing coach, who ran a boxing gym, discovered Marv. And Joanne Bratton (Ed Wingate's ladyfriend, and partner in Golden World) was previously married to a champion professional boxer, Johnny "Honey Boy" Bratton (from Chicago).

Wilt "The Stilt" Chamberlain, a dominating basketball centre for The Philadelphia and San Francisco Warriors, and The L.A. Lakers, had a 45 out on George Goldner's End Records in 1960. I doubt that most of you would consider it Northern Soul, or, even "Soul" music, - or, really, even "music", as the bloke couldn't really sing. But, I just thought I'd throw this in. Arthur Lee Maye (Lee Maye) was a great R&B singer, whose later career edged a little into the Soul Music period. I think that one or two of his last recordings perhaps edged into borderline NS interest. He had a 10 year + career as a US Major league Baseball player, as a borderline all star outfielder with The Milwaukee Braves, Houston Astros, and Cleveland Indians. He was an above .300 hitter most of his time with The Braves, and led The National League in doubles one year. I met him several times at batting practise before games in Milwaukee and Chicago during 1958-64. Not only did US Pro Football's greatest running back, Cleveland Browns' Jim Brown own a couple '60s Soul record labels, but, if I remember correctly, he also had at least one 45 record out. Of course you all know he was an actor in action films, as well. And, ironically, much to my chagrin, he's probably a LOT more well known by Americans today for THAT than being possibly the greatest American football player ever. I probably have 30-40 R&B and Soul records recorded by professional sports stars, alone. If you'd add in those that were university/college athletic stars, they'd certainly go over 100 (but, I probably wouldn't have known most of them were stars in college because I never paid much attention to college sports, other than my own time at university). For African-American boys during the 1950s and 1960s, most of the best ways to earn a halfway decent living were as singers or professional sports players. So, MOST of the boys were good at sports, a long way up the chain towards competing for professional jobs in that field. So, I'm sure that hundreds and hundreds of males who recorded Soul 45s were sports stars, at least on the college level. Most of any sports stars WE could discover, would likely have had to have at least a short time as a professional. The professional sports players who played enough to get on Baseball, Football, Hockey, and Basketball cards, would on the backs of the cards have a short bio - often with a cartoon highlight. Whenever the player was also a professional recording artist, THAT would show up in the cartoon (as did Lee Maye, and a few others, but who the others were escapes my old memory right now. I DO remember that there were a few more pro boxers who couldn't sing, also had one-off records out during the early mid '60s, other than Joe Frazier. So, I hope to add them later. It seems to me that there were many, many ex-collegiate sports stars in R&B groups. But, that's not really related to NS.

There WAS some overlap when Don Davis was producing for Stax. But, I do admit that everything I've heard of his recording Stax artists sound conspicuously like Detroit recordings or good facsimiles.

I do. I bought a few from him. His name was Scott Bayliss, if I remember correctly.