Robbk

I bought hundreds of duplicates by accident. But I was able to swap most of them for other records I wanted.

Yes. Don Juan Mancha produced all 4 cuts at the same session, probably at United Sound. The artist was Marvin Jones. What a voice he had. It was a shame that he didn't record more and have a strong singing career.

Could I hear them, too? I might be able to hear some identifiable session players on them, or make a reasonable guess as to whether or not they were recorded before or after 1011 or 1017.

I'm bumping this up, so we can get some feedback on the Johnny Adams "Dynamics" release.

I find it interesting that Canadian folk singer, Gordon Lightfoot would write a song that is so amenable to being fitted to the mid '60s Detroit sound. It sounds so unlike any other of his tunes. I like the Richie Havens version very much. I never played it, originally, just because it was by Havens. I could imagine Dennis Coffey listening to Havens' version and thinking "We could do something very nice with that song!" And so, now it's a classic Detroit Soul cut.

I'd guess that it was recorded at United Sound. But the lineup of musicians on it could easily have been recording on a given night at Wingate's studio. The two rooms sound a little different, but Wingate's sounds a little "emptier". I believe that comes from it having been a larger room. United Sound had a more compact room, so the sound was a little more full. But I hear the same group of current Motown, ex-Motown and off-Motown session players that played on many Golden World and Solid Hitbound sessions.

You can throw it in, but I believe that "Dearly Beloved" was recorded before Terra Shirma existed. Wasn't it started in spring 1967?

Mancha also recorded at Correc-Tone. It could have been any of those 3 studios. They used the same musicians in any of them.

So, was this Contact Records with the Memphis address then the same Contact Records that was located in Chicago a couple years before?

Apparently they had no knowledge that Barry Despenza operated a yellow-coloured Contact Records spewing out Soul records in Chicago around the same time.

I've never seen that address related to any Detroit record label. Furthermore, I know of no connection of Johnny Adams to Detroit (other than the fact that Motown distributed Chisa Records (but they were located in LA). I wouldn't be surprised if it were a boot. Gone records closed their doors in 1965. Dynamics Records started in 1968. Why would the master from a George Goldner label (whose rights were sold to giant Roulette Records (and all still owned by them in 1968)) end up being released on a miniscule Detroit label? This makes no sense at all. This looks like a red herring to hide the origin of the bootleg. I've seen "When I'm Gone" by Brenda Holloway pressed on Ric Tic Records. That doesn't make it legitimate. What music publishing company is listed for the songs? I'll bet it's not Labney Music.

I only remember personally seeing specific records pressed at Archer going up into the 9000s. But that doesn't mean they didn't go into 10,000 and 11,000, because most of my records were released before 1968, and I have none that I know of, that were pressed at Archer after 1967. So, they likely move on to the 11,000s by, perhaps 1969 or 1970. (Which is precisely why I'd tend to lean towards the post Dynamics 1017 period for the Maxine Jenkins record, which should be late 1969 or, perhaps early 1970 (given that Dynamics' supposed run was from 1968 through 1969). If it were pressed before Dynamics 1011, I'd expect the Archer pressing number to be lower (perhaps in the 10,000s?). Unfortunately, the Anorak's Corner Pressing Plant Data lists Archer as a pressing plant, but provides no data on it, and no code numbers. We had a very good informational thread on Soulful Detroit Forum in the early 2000s, which included pressing plant code numbers for various Detroit and Midwest plants (Archer included). But, I've looked for it, and failed to find it. A large percentage of the pre-2004 threads were lost when our co-founder and technical expert, Lowell Boileau, moved the SDF Archives from the old website to our current website (with much larger memory and storage capacity). Unfortunately, many of those pre-2004 threads had lots of information from posters such as Joe Hunter, Ron Murphy and other Detroit Music industry industry musicians, singers, label owners and record collectors who are now deceased. That valuable stockpile of information may be lost, forever.

I've never seen nor heard of this being pressed on 45. From what I've read, it was one of the songs he recorded during his first VJ recording session in Chicago in 1964. And it was left in the can by VJ during the '60s. I know that was fairly unusual for VJ, who liked to release formerly unreleased cuts on albums and the B sides of their "Oldies 45" reissue series. If you knew all this and are merely asking if there was a 7" in boot or facsimile of a "would have been" issue made for The NS Scene, I have no idea.

We know it's definitely Detroit because Labney Music was Detroit's Dynamics Records' owner Butler Abney's music publisher, and the record was pressed at Detroit's Archer pressing plant. What we want to know is the year of release. The Archer press codes of 11241 and 11242 should indicate when the record was pressed. I assume that it was released either before Dynamics 1011, or after 1017 (the 1000 series run).

The pressing numbers look like 11241 and 11242. As I stated above, those look like very late '60s numbers (1968, 1969 or, possibly, 1970?) I'd guess Maxine's record was released just AFTER Dynamics 1017-rather than just before Dynamics 1011.

That Maxine Jenkins' record's Archer pressing code should reveal its approximate release date- telling whether it was released before or after the 1011-1017 series. My guess is that it was released after, as it looks like a higher Archer number than I'm normally used to, and most of my records were released before 1968. I don't have a list of Archer pressing codes (Ron Murphy did). But, isn't it on Dave Rimmer's list?

That Archer pressing code should reveal its approximate release date- telling whether it was released before or after the 1011-1017 series. My guess is that it was released after, as it looks like a higher Archer number than I'm normally used to, and most of my records were released before 1968.

I've listened to the Jameco and orange Carrie cuts again, and they sound very different on BOTH cuts. As I stated above, I remember the Jameco records coming out a LOT later (1967? 1969?) than the orange Carries (1965). The Mary Jane "I'm Gonna love you" was released in 1966. I don't think that Lou Beatty was a partner with James Hendrix in 1965, when the orange Carrie record was released. The green Carrie, (pressed up again by James Hendrix) came out in 1973 or 1974 (probably due to NS demand). I seem to remember reading that Edward Hamilton formed The Fifes after his first Arabians group left him in a dispute (I think it was that they didn't like him getting his name listed separately). It was The Fifes singing with him on the cuts released on Jameco. I'm not sure if they were the same group as with him in 1965 on the orange Carrie, and just listed as Arabians (his new Arabians group). But, as the Jameco cuts sound different, I assume they were re-recorded with Lou Beatty either re-recording them, or using alternate takes to which he had access, due to his partnership with James Hendrix. Maybe he never gave them back, and that was a point of contention from Hendrix's point of view. In any case, it seems that it was Beatty, not Hendrix, who leased the cuts to Jameco (as noted on the labels).

I thought I remember that the Jameco release has different recordings from the Carrie. Beatty was the one who leased the cuts to Jameco. I have all those records. But, currently I'm not with them. Not that it would matter, as I don't currently have a useable cartridge and stylus. Yes, I believe the James Hendrix or whatever Webisode on Soulful Detroit has the story, or the Soulful Detroit thread which discussed it, or the UK fanzine in which I read the story, laid all that out, clearly (versions of the cuts, and who released which on which labels, and the rough dating of the releases).

Thanks, Richard. So, it could be either BEFORE or AFTER the 1000 series.

As far as rarity, only 1014 and 1015 are rare. 1011, 1012, 1016 and 1017 were all fairly common in Detroit, and I've seen all of those in Chicago. I picked them all up new, as I did The Eldees (1013). But, the latter seems a fair amount scarcer than The Superlatives' releases. I haven't seen more than a handfull over the years. But I've NEVER seen 1014 or 1015 in person.

That Maxine Jenkins' 45 may be on a different "Dynamics Records". Have you any proof that the label issuing her record was located in Detroit (and is a 1968 or 1969 release)?

James Hendrix re-issued them on Green Carrie in the early '70s to try to make some additional money on them. Those songs probably had a trickle of sales all through the period from their initial release on orange Carrie (1965) through the Mary Jane (1966) and Jameco (1969?) and green Carrie 1972-74(?).

No, The Jameco was NOT a pickup for national distribution. It was a re-release well after the Carrie version's original run. The green Carries were issued in the early '70s (1973 or 1974?). There was some argument over who owned the rights to release it between James Hendrix and Lou Beatty, when they had a falling out. Lou Beatty wanted to make more money off of his supposed rights to those songs. Hendrix had considered their agreement cancelled or finished. Edward Hamilton got together a new group to record those songs again (The Fifes), after the original Arabians had split away from him. Beatty leased the recordings to a New York financier (who released them on Jameco). I believe that all this is covered in detail in the James Hendrix "Webisode" on "Soulful Detroit.com Website" or in a UK Detroit Soul fanzine from the 1970s or early '80s. I know that I've read that in more than one reliable source.

Exactly this! They never played "Stop Girl" on any of the Soul radio stations within earshot of me in Chicago, nor did they play it on Soul stations in L.A. or San Francisco/Oakland. It has a garage band sound. I doubt that ANY Soul DJ in USA would have played it. But then, Margaret Whiting's NS cut had a pop sound, and would never have been played on Soul radio. There's a LOT more to a vocal/instrumental recording than just the beat (which is why there were a LOT of NS "floor fillers" that I don't like in the slightest.