Robbk

Thanks for that info. Then, "Oh Baby" was recorded not long after Ingram's HIB and Smash recordings (if not at the same time). No, I've never seen a complete list of Correc-Tone's recordings. Golden's cash-flow problems due to paying several high salaries and, mainly, due to having Bateman direct building his new recording studio, caused Golden to partner up with many different independent producers in co-productions that left ownership and rights very fuzzy. Here is what I can remember from my collection off the top of my head (in addition to the well-known leases of Correc-Tone 501 & 502 (Wilson Pickett and James Velvet) and SonBert (Pyramids) leased to Cub Records in spring 1962: The following all recorded in Detroit (presumably in Correc-Tone's studio) : Brent 7033-"Devil In His Heart"/"Bad Boy"-Donays-Produced and arranged by Popcorn Wylie Brent 7035-"Wondering If You Miss Me"/"I Know How It Feels"-Laura Johnson-Produced by Robert Bateman, arranged by Willie Harbert (Johnson was Golden's and Correc-Tone's office secretary) Time 1055-"You Lied"/"Later For You Baby"-Marva Josie-Produced by Robert Bateman, arranged by Willie Harbert VJ 489-"Shakin' Fit"/"What Is Love"-Pyramids-Produced by Robert Bateman, arranged by Sonny Sanders Versatile 111-"Baby don't You Weep"/"It Must Be love"-Fred Bridges-Produced by Robert Bateman, arranged by Sonny Sanders Golden also funded and had Bateman record 3 songs by Edward Hamilton & Arabians (including "What'Cha Bet'Cha"), at Correc-Tone Studio, which never were put onto vinyl. They have been lost. Checker 1041-"The Boy For Me"/"Is It A Sin"-Timiko (Jones)-A side produced by Bateman (Tamiko was his girlfriend)-B side by Bateman and Wylie, probably arranged by Sanders or Harbert Prince-Adams 447-"Red Pepper I & II"-Roosevelt Fountain & Pens of Rhythm-Produced by Sam Motley and R. Adams (patnership between Golden & Motley Hit (also Hit Productions) 101-"Don't Take Your Love From Me"/"Happiest Man In The Land"-Moments (Detroit-Herschel Hunter group)-Produced by Robert Bateman and Herman Griffin, arranged by Sonny Sanders-(Griffin owned the label-partnering with Golden on 101, and probably Robert West on 3588). Hit Productions 3588-"It's Been A Long Time"/"Your Turn"-Ruby Yates & Swinging Rocks-Produced & arranged by Herman Griffin Double-L 713-"If You Need Me"/"Baby Call On Me"-Wilson Pickett-Producer Robert Bateman, arranger-Sonny Sanders-recorded in Correc-Tone studio All Double-L Produced in Detroit and/or in New York by Robert Bateman-Detroit sessions probably arranged by Sonny Sanders, New York sessions arranger unknown (may have been arranged by Bateman, Richard Tee, Teacho Wiltshire or Bill Ramal). Double-L 717-"I'm Gonna Love You"/"It's Too Late"-Wilson Pickett-vocals recorded in NY Double-L 724-"I'm Down To My Last Heartbreak"/"I Can't Stop"-vocals recorded in NY Double-L LP SDL 8300 "It's Too Late"-Wilson Pickett-Produced by Robert Bateman, (originally slated as Correc-Tone project-but funded by Pickett when Golden ran out of cash-and Bateman sold it to Lloyd Price (Double-L))-most vocals and some BG tracks recorded in NY) Double-L 716-"My Tears"/"Thank You Love"-Buddy Lamp-Produced by Bateman -BG tracks probably recorded in Detroit, vocals in New York Double-L 718-"Mr. Heartbreak"/"Never Trust Your Girlfriend"-Herman Griffin--Produced by Robert Bateman in Detroit, probably arranged by Sonny Sanders Double-L 726 & 727 (Debs, Shawn Elliott and Johnny Dunn recorded completely in New York, and were totally Bateman as an independent producer selling to Lloyd & Logan's Double-L-with never a connection to Correc-Tone and Golden.

Upon listening to the two Hurdy Gurdy sides and also "Oh Baby Don't You Weep" by Luther Ingram on Kent. I don't hear Detroit session players on ANY of the three recordings. They ALL sound like New York. One side of the Hurdy-Gurdy record is published by Emmalou Music, which was the New York partnership between Robert Bateman and Lou Courtney from 1967-1971 or so (showing that the record had to be released no earlier than 1967. I Believe that Bateman recorded "Oh Baby Don't You Weep" after 1966 also in New York. It was a BrianBert song in his own catalogue, that was written in 1962 by Fred Bridges, under the auspices of Bateman, probably originally planned to be used by Correc-Tone, but because Golden was having cash-flow problems, with not enough money to press and distribute his own records, Bateman decided to keep this record for himself, and place it with a New York label WITHOUT putting it under the Correc-Tone umbrella, and, so, without sharing the proceeds with Golden. In 1966 or 1967, after having split from Golden's Correc-Tone for 3 or 4 years, Bateman recorded the song again with one of his new artists, Luther Ingram, in New York. The sax player doesn't sound like Mike Terry to me.

By 1964, Robert Bateman was working a lot more out of New York than Detroit (only worked with Popcorn Wylie on the HIB record, and with Mary Wells for 20th Century Fox in Detroit). As far as I know, Luther Ingram's vocals were being recorded only in New York (both on his HIB and Smash cuts). The Smash instrumental tracks were arranged by Richard Tee, and recorded in New York. The HIB instrumentals were arranged by popcorn Wylie and recorded in Detroit. I suspect that Ingram's Hurdy-Gurdy vocals were recorded in New York. Not sure about the instrumentals, but, I think that New York is more likely than Detroit. Bateman was working almost exclusively in New York, starting in 1965. He used Richard Tee, Pretty Purdie and many of the best New York session players to successfully "mimic" the "Motown Sound" and the "Detroit Sound". Once in a while he had an old colleague in Detroit lay down an instrumental track or two. But, he found his artists and wrote his songs out of his New York office. Regarding some misinformation on that Robert Bateman thread: There is a misconception about "Brianbert Music". BrianBert was the name for The Brian Holland/Robert Bateman and Brian Holland/Robert Bateman/Freddie Gorman writing/production teams at Motown from 1960 to early 1962. Robert Bateman later used that same name for his personal music publishing company (with royalty rights shared with NO ONE ELSE). So, Brianbert Music has no connection with Brian Holland. Bateman had used it for his publishing company as a bit of irony. He had a bone to pick with Brian Holland, because, in early 1962, Brian and Eddie had told Robert that they were leaving Motown to join Wilbur Golden's new Correc-Tone Records (along with Mickey Stevenson and Popcorn Wylie), and that he (Bateman) and Sonny Sanders should come along with them, because Golden was offering better jobs and big salaries. Bateman and Sanders left Motown in late spring, 1962. But, soon after he quit Motown, Robert found out that both Holland brothers and stevenson had backed out at the last moment, and stayed with Motown. That was when Berry Gordy made Mickey Stevenson chief A&R man of Motown (ostensibly because he threatened to leave), and probably paid Brian and Eddie "secret" bonuses to stay with Motown. Bateman, Sanders the rest of The Satintones and Popcorn Wylie had already quit Motown and signed with Golden when they heard that the 3 others had backed out. (Had they also joined Golden's team, maybe we would all be worshipping "The Correc-Tone Sound" now, and Motown would have been just another Detroit Soul label). With Stevenson and Brian Holland out of the picture, Golden made Bateman chief A&R man of Correc-Tone. Wylie became a major producer, Sonny Sanders became an arranger, and the remaining Satintones added 2 members to replace Bateman and Sanders, and became The Pyramids. Bateman formed his own music company to publish Correc-Tone's songs (later he used it just for his own productions). Bateman worked out of Detroit, but Golden kept running short of money to press and distribute Correc-Tone's records. So he sent Bateman to New York to market their product (e.g. lease masters to other, bigger labels (Brent/Time, Atlantic, Double-L, VJ) ). While there, Bateman made connections with other writers and producers, local New York singers and groups, and, so, did some writing and producing on his own, and placed those recordings with other labels. Logic suggests that both Brian Holland AND Robert Bateman had made a deal with Golden that they would share the music publishing rights for all Correc-Tone songs written by their production team. Apparently, Stevenson would have had a different one for his own productions, or he had already backed out by the time Bateman had registered the name. But, clearly The Hollands had not, or Bateman would have changed the name, to one that reflected him, alone. He made it clear in his interview, that he was leaving because of a mass exodus of production and songwriting talent from Motown to Correc-Tone, and was shocked to find out half the conspirators bailed out, behind his back, leaving him in the lurch. That opening allowed him to make a deal with Golden to run the day to day operations of the new label (and its SonBert subsidiary), and, apparently, to retain publishing rights to songs written under his production wing (Golden kept rights to all other Correc-Tone songs, produced by others (Wylie and Don Juan Mancha) under his "Correc-Tone Music"). So Bateman "inherited" the compound music publisher name, chosen, ostensibly, by Bateman and Holland, together, as a little dig into the hide of Berry Gordy, for not recognising the value his producers were bringing to his company through increased monetary compensation. It also stands to reason, that The Hollands and Stevenson were talked out of leaving by a raise in pay from Gordy, but Bateman and Wylie were offered too little to make them change their minds. The Correc-Tone "Webisode" on Soulful Detroit Website states that Lamont Dozier had also agreed with Wilbur Golden to leaveMotown and come to Correc-Tone in spring 1962, but he also was enticed to stay by Gordy. It states that "in addition to giving them a nice salary, he bought them all new cars".

Neither the Little Pattie nor the Sandy Williams version holds a candle to Barbara Lewis', in my opinion.

The original local pressing, which was withdrawn, was on striped Tamla. If there was a repressing of THAT rarer issue on Globed Tamla, it was re-released in 1962, 1963 or 1964, and should not be worth all that much. The striped version is uncommon, but not really "rare". The re-release might be rarer than the original, but shouldn't be desired all that much, except by fanatic completists. I, myself, have never seen nor heard of a "Globes" re-release of that first, local released version, and I used to drive to Detroit to scour the shops for 45s once a month from 1962-66.

ZTSC is Columbia Midwest (mastered in Chicago, pressed in Terre Haute, Indiana. The rare version has a great twangy guitar solo in the break.

I have that one as well, and seen a LOT more blues than yellows. Actually, I've only seen the blue one in my time in The Midwest and Far West. Maybe the yellow was first press, and local or regional only, and when national distribution started, it was pressed on blue?

Yes, the Hollywood records label was formed in Texas in 1953, from the purchase of remaining masters from John Dolphin's Recorded in Hollywood label. They also signed their own artists. It ran until the late '50s. That label was resurrected in 1965, distributed by king Records. The "Merry Christmas Baby" LP (Hollywood 501), released in 1957, has mostly early '50s songs, such as "Merry Christmas Baby" by Johnny Moore's 3 Blazers (vocal by Charles Brown), "Lonesome Christmas" by Lowell Fulson, and "Sleigh Ride" by Lloyd Glenn, and songs by Jimmy Witherspoon and Marie Scott. The 1965 LP was a re-release of the '50s mono LP.

I've seen a lot more of the DJ issues, and a LOT more of my searching was in USA (during the '60s) than in UK (during '70s and '80s). So, I'm guessing that there may have been less store stock actually pressed, or that the unsold store stock left at distributors was destroyed.

Why is "Sippin' A Cup of Coffee" by The Ordells "Psychadelic Soul"? It sounds like pure mid-sixties Philadelphia sweet Soul to me. Neither the instrumentation nor the lyrics make me think even remotely of any psychedelic association.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is why so many "garbage records" were produced, pressed and "released" on the various Motown labels. I don't believe that Berry Gordy ever thought Ray Oddis', Joel Sebastian's or The Chuck-A-Lucks' records would sell more than a handful of copies (If that).

Ed Wingate's labels were distributed in BOTH white and brown record sleeves.

They are DEFINITELY NOT the same group. The RCA group was from The East Coast (I read their story somewhere, but can't remember). The Impact group was from Michigan, and there was no connection. I just remember that The East Coast group wasn't from NYC. They were produced by Charley Fox in New York. The reason they sang a Jobete Music song was because of The New York Jobete office's marketing and both Charley Fox and Teacho Wilshire had connections to NY Jobete writer/producers, George Kerr, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd Jr., and George Clinton.

And it was performed by a Drifters' group with NOT ONE MEMBER that was in The Drifters who recorded "Drip Drop"- (although Johnny Moore was a Drifters member in both the mid '50s and the '60s-bouncing in and out of the group).

Yes! That's obscure enough. I didn't know she sang that.

The Swirl design was East Coast. Shelley was located in New York. The "straight design" shown above was pressed on styrene at L.A.'s Monarch pressing plant, but also on vinyl in some other plants around USA (I seem to remember seeing many in The Midwest on vinyl). Maybe they were pressed by RCA or one of the other majors? They weren't pressed at Columbia Midwest (Chicago/Terre Haute). I would remember if they were a ZTSC pressing. I followed that plant very closely, as almost all their pressings were Detroit and Chicago labels.

Yes, I have that one.

Doesn't that ZXSE 12300 series code indicate that it's a Columbia pressing?

Weren't all The Knights and Arthur's recordings vanity recordings? The guy, (Krass) had a large business in Philadelphia that could help him pay for his singing hobby. I guess he fancied himself a "Soul singer". He couldn't sing, but had a professional Soul backup group and used the best Philadelphia arrangers and session musicians and songwriters (and also Curtis Mayfield songs). He had lots of money to fund them. Here is his version of The Impressions' "Man Oh Man": There was also this release on Landa:

Didn't it have addresses both in NJ and NY (later?)?

Carnival Records was located in New Jersey. I would expect Carneval Records to be located in Brazil, Spain, Mexico or Argentina. So, I suspect that it is a misprint. Pretty awful when the printers misspell the name of your company. Let's hope it wasn't a Carnival Records company employee, who spelled it wrong on the printing order.

Well, I was a " '60s American". "In The Pocket" meant exactly the same as "In The Groove". It was a music term used by Jazz musicians when everyone was jamming together and they hit a point where they were really working well together. They hit a groove, and remained in it. I guess that George Clinton, Rose Marie McCoy and J.J. Jackson (as well as Darrell Banks and J.J. Barnes meant that the singer's love relationship with their girlfriend had really hit a high point , got into a plateau there (groove) and remained there.

She hasn't been posting on Soulful Detroit Forum for quite a while. But, if she's not to busy, it would be nice for her to visit here and talk about her career in the music industry. Her posts on SDF were very inlightening, providing first hand glimpses into what was really going on in the '60s.

Here's a link to the first page of a 3-page discography of all Dora Hall's releases: https://www.discogs.com/artist/Dora+Hall I saw only MOR Pop, old standards and a few Soul/pop crossover hits. What's interesting is that her husband spent many, many thousands of dollars on recording her and producing TV specials starring Dora. with guest stars such as Frank Sinatra Junior, Rosey Grier and others. It was quite laughable. You can watch all her TV shows on video.

I've seen the overall list of Dora Hall's record releases. MOST of her songs were MOR Pop music. She sang remakes of maybe 15-17 "Soul" songs. But, from what I remember NONE of them were "obscure". All of them charted, and, more importantly, I believe ALL were not only Soul chat hits, but ALL were pop chart hits ("I Heard It Through The Grapevine", "Groovin' ", "Barefootin' ", etc.). I don't remember her singing any songs that didn't make the Pop charts. She lived in Chicago. I imagine she heard those songs on WLS. I doubt that she listened to WVON. Do you remember, offhand, any "obscure" Soul songs she sang (released either on 45 or LP)?