Robbk

I only remember personally seeing specific records pressed at Archer going up into the 9000s. But that doesn't mean they didn't go into 10,000 and 11,000, because most of my records were released before 1968, and I have none that I know of, that were pressed at Archer after 1967. So, they likely move on to the 11,000s by, perhaps 1969 or 1970. (Which is precisely why I'd tend to lean towards the post Dynamics 1017 period for the Maxine Jenkins record, which should be late 1969 or, perhaps early 1970 (given that Dynamics' supposed run was from 1968 through 1969). If it were pressed before Dynamics 1011, I'd expect the Archer pressing number to be lower (perhaps in the 10,000s?). Unfortunately, the Anorak's Corner Pressing Plant Data lists Archer as a pressing plant, but provides no data on it, and no code numbers. We had a very good informational thread on Soulful Detroit Forum in the early 2000s, which included pressing plant code numbers for various Detroit and Midwest plants (Archer included). But, I've looked for it, and failed to find it. A large percentage of the pre-2004 threads were lost when our co-founder and technical expert, Lowell Boileau, moved the SDF Archives from the old website to our current website (with much larger memory and storage capacity). Unfortunately, many of those pre-2004 threads had lots of information from posters such as Joe Hunter, Ron Murphy and other Detroit Music industry industry musicians, singers, label owners and record collectors who are now deceased. That valuable stockpile of information may be lost, forever.

I've never seen nor heard of this being pressed on 45. From what I've read, it was one of the songs he recorded during his first VJ recording session in Chicago in 1964. And it was left in the can by VJ during the '60s. I know that was fairly unusual for VJ, who liked to release formerly unreleased cuts on albums and the B sides of their "Oldies 45" reissue series. If you knew all this and are merely asking if there was a 7" in boot or facsimile of a "would have been" issue made for The NS Scene, I have no idea.

We know it's definitely Detroit because Labney Music was Detroit's Dynamics Records' owner Butler Abney's music publisher, and the record was pressed at Detroit's Archer pressing plant. What we want to know is the year of release. The Archer press codes of 11241 and 11242 should indicate when the record was pressed. I assume that it was released either before Dynamics 1011, or after 1017 (the 1000 series run).

The pressing numbers look like 11241 and 11242. As I stated above, those look like very late '60s numbers (1968, 1969 or, possibly, 1970?) I'd guess Maxine's record was released just AFTER Dynamics 1017-rather than just before Dynamics 1011.

That Maxine Jenkins' record's Archer pressing code should reveal its approximate release date- telling whether it was released before or after the 1011-1017 series. My guess is that it was released after, as it looks like a higher Archer number than I'm normally used to, and most of my records were released before 1968. I don't have a list of Archer pressing codes (Ron Murphy did). But, isn't it on Dave Rimmer's list?

That Archer pressing code should reveal its approximate release date- telling whether it was released before or after the 1011-1017 series. My guess is that it was released after, as it looks like a higher Archer number than I'm normally used to, and most of my records were released before 1968.

I've listened to the Jameco and orange Carrie cuts again, and they sound very different on BOTH cuts. As I stated above, I remember the Jameco records coming out a LOT later (1967? 1969?) than the orange Carries (1965). The Mary Jane "I'm Gonna love you" was released in 1966. I don't think that Lou Beatty was a partner with James Hendrix in 1965, when the orange Carrie record was released. The green Carrie, (pressed up again by James Hendrix) came out in 1973 or 1974 (probably due to NS demand). I seem to remember reading that Edward Hamilton formed The Fifes after his first Arabians group left him in a dispute (I think it was that they didn't like him getting his name listed separately). It was The Fifes singing with him on the cuts released on Jameco. I'm not sure if they were the same group as with him in 1965 on the orange Carrie, and just listed as Arabians (his new Arabians group). But, as the Jameco cuts sound different, I assume they were re-recorded with Lou Beatty either re-recording them, or using alternate takes to which he had access, due to his partnership with James Hendrix. Maybe he never gave them back, and that was a point of contention from Hendrix's point of view. In any case, it seems that it was Beatty, not Hendrix, who leased the cuts to Jameco (as noted on the labels).

I thought I remember that the Jameco release has different recordings from the Carrie. Beatty was the one who leased the cuts to Jameco. I have all those records. But, currently I'm not with them. Not that it would matter, as I don't currently have a useable cartridge and stylus. Yes, I believe the James Hendrix or whatever Webisode on Soulful Detroit has the story, or the Soulful Detroit thread which discussed it, or the UK fanzine in which I read the story, laid all that out, clearly (versions of the cuts, and who released which on which labels, and the rough dating of the releases).

Thanks, Richard. So, it could be either BEFORE or AFTER the 1000 series.

As far as rarity, only 1014 and 1015 are rare. 1011, 1012, 1016 and 1017 were all fairly common in Detroit, and I've seen all of those in Chicago. I picked them all up new, as I did The Eldees (1013). But, the latter seems a fair amount scarcer than The Superlatives' releases. I haven't seen more than a handfull over the years. But I've NEVER seen 1014 or 1015 in person.

That Maxine Jenkins' 45 may be on a different "Dynamics Records". Have you any proof that the label issuing her record was located in Detroit (and is a 1968 or 1969 release)?

James Hendrix re-issued them on Green Carrie in the early '70s to try to make some additional money on them. Those songs probably had a trickle of sales all through the period from their initial release on orange Carrie (1965) through the Mary Jane (1966) and Jameco (1969?) and green Carrie 1972-74(?).

No, The Jameco was NOT a pickup for national distribution. It was a re-release well after the Carrie version's original run. The green Carries were issued in the early '70s (1973 or 1974?). There was some argument over who owned the rights to release it between James Hendrix and Lou Beatty, when they had a falling out. Lou Beatty wanted to make more money off of his supposed rights to those songs. Hendrix had considered their agreement cancelled or finished. Edward Hamilton got together a new group to record those songs again (The Fifes), after the original Arabians had split away from him. Beatty leased the recordings to a New York financier (who released them on Jameco). I believe that all this is covered in detail in the James Hendrix "Webisode" on "Soulful Detroit.com Website" or in a UK Detroit Soul fanzine from the 1970s or early '80s. I know that I've read that in more than one reliable source.

Exactly this! They never played "Stop Girl" on any of the Soul radio stations within earshot of me in Chicago, nor did they play it on Soul stations in L.A. or San Francisco/Oakland. It has a garage band sound. I doubt that ANY Soul DJ in USA would have played it. But then, Margaret Whiting's NS cut had a pop sound, and would never have been played on Soul radio. There's a LOT more to a vocal/instrumental recording than just the beat (which is why there were a LOT of NS "floor fillers" that I don't like in the slightest.

I believe that some Windsor, London, Hamilton and Toronto distributors delivered Canadian pressings to Detroit, and Buffalo record shops. I don't think they delivered deep into USA.

Quality, REO and Regency picked up a LOT of US Soul productions on lease. That list would be endless. What really is interesting are the local Canadian Soul productions. Toronto had an active soul artists representation in their club scene. And so, also had some Soul music production in their studios in the '60s. Several Detroit artists went there to record. There were also a few local Soul artists recorded there (as mentioned The Tiaras, et al).

I can't remember what other artists were on the 1950s Olympic Records. I do remember seeing a few 78s on Olympic. But I don't remember ever seeing a 45 of that label. I couldn't find ANYTHING on Google about that label.

I remember that The Scaletones had a record released by Jerry Blaine's Josie Records. They were located in New York, but several Baltimore, DC and North Carolina groups recorded for them and their sister label, Jubilee Records. The early 1960s New York label, Olympic Records, which featured The Avalons among other groups was NOT the same label as the 1954 Olympic Records (as far as I know). I would guess that the 1954 Olympic Records group is the SAME group as the Jay Dee/Josie group. Most of the North Carolina, DC, and Baltimore groups migrated to New York to appear in the clubs there and, most importantly, to get recording contracts. I remember the Scaletones/Scale-Tones. I always thought they were a NY group, because they appeared in clubs in the NY area, and recorded for NY labels. But, they could easily have been originally from Baltimore.

It doesn't sound ANYTHING like detroit to me. The instrumental sounds like New York. The songwriting starts off like a Chicago song, and quickly changes to the "New Jersey style", similar to the mid-sixties sound of Carnival records.

I found a Sonny Allen located in New York, African-American, who looks to be in his 70s, and is a music teacher/choreographer. Sam Motley worked more out of New York than Detroit. So, I'm guessing that Sonny Allen also recorded in New York, and that the recordings on that REO release were made in The New York/New Jersey Metro Area, in early 1965, and, probably released on a small New York indie label.

Sonny Allen on REO 8878-"I Love You Sonny Baby"/"Please Be My Love" is clearly the same bloke who Sam Motley recorded in Detroit with Mike Terry on HitPack Records. The REO cuts sound great, but the instrumentals don't have that definite "Detroit Sound". Were they rather a domestic Canadian production, recorded in Toronto? I've never seen them on a US label. Many Detroiters traveled up to Toronto to record, and also to sing in the clubs. Does anyone know where Sonny Allen was from. He certainly sounds like an American, rather than a Canadian (and I should know ). Was he from Detroit? The only credit on the record is George Bozemore. I never saw that name on any other records. Not a known Detroiter, as far as I know. I wonder who The Rockettes were? Any help out there?

I've never heard of any Masqueraders' cuts that were produced in Detroit and released on a label other than laBeat.

Ady-Here's the other Correc-Tone/Atlantic connection: Atlantic 2233- "For better Or Worse"/"I'm Gonna Cry"-by Wilson Pickett, with Don Juan Mancha and Robert Bateman participating. Both songs were published by Correc-Tone Music, and shared publishing rights with Atlantic's Cotillion Music. We know that the vocals on these were recorded in New York, either by Robert Bateman at Bell Sound BEFORE Pickett signed with Atlantic, or by Jerry Wexler's Atlantic crew after, using songs Atlantic had bought. The songs were written, probably at the same time as "If You Need Me", and Pickett's other Brianbert songs, for expected Wilson Pickett future Correc-Tone Records singles and, if all would go well, an LP. What is interesting, is that although they were written by Don Mancha's production crew, rather than Bateman's, and, so, Golden had the publishing rights (Correc-Tone Music), rather than Bateman (Brianbert Music). Therefore, it is most likely that Golden sold half shares of these two songs to Atlantic at the same time as he sold full rights to "If You Need Me". Therefore, it's most likely that Pickett's new, Atlantic producers, and he, himself, decided to record himself singing them AFTER Pickett signed with Atlantic, rather than Bateman having had recorded the backing tracks and Pickett's vocals, beforehand, under Correc-Tone's or his own, independent auspices (e.g. they were likely 100% Atlantic, rather than Correc-Tone recordings)..

Mickey Denton was appearing around Detroit a fair amount throughout the '60s. He recorded for Twirl (leased to Big Top Records), Amy, World Artists, Impact Records for Harry Balk. He had been discovered by Balk in 1960, and stayed with him through his time into the '70s, with Motown Records. He was a songwriter in Balk's and Micahnik's Vicki Music in the early and mid '60s and Balk's Gomba Music in the late '60s. He came to Motown with Balk (and recorded for Inferno, Rare Earth and Motown Records, and stayed there into the '70s. I'd be surprised if he had time to tour with The Casinos. Driving to Cincinnati from Detroit to record now and then would certainly be possible. Still, I'd be surprised to find out that Detroit's Mickey Denton was a member of The Casinos during their and his heydays. The Twirl Records' website has this discography which makes no mention of Fraternity Records and The Casinos: Mickey Denton Label Discography As “Mickey Denton”: Bigtop #45-3078 - Steady Kind / Now You Can't Give Them Away — 1961 Bigtop #45-3094 - Nature Boy / Ain't Nobody - 1961 Bigtop #45-3114 - Tell Her / How Mighty Hath Fallen - 1962 Bigtop #45-3142 - Dance With Me Mary / The Other Side Of Betty - 1963 Amy #902 - Now I'm Mr. Blue / Top Ten - 1964 World Artists #1043 - Don't Throw My Toys Away / One More Time - 1965 Impact #1002 — Mi Amore / Ain’t Love Grand — 1966 Impact #1011 — King Lonely The Blue / Heartache Is My Name — 1966 As “Patti & Mickey”: Impact #1027 — My Guy My Girl / You Can’t Buy Back Yesterday — 1967 As “Michael Denton”: Rare Earth #5015 - Just Another Morning / Arma' Geden — 1970 As “New York Express featuring Mickey Denton”: Cherie #7-99976 — “Show Me Your Good Side” / Same — 1982 Cherie #7-99995 — “Hot On The Clue” / “A-Bomb Calling” — 1982