Robbk

Thanks for clearing that up for good. I had heard that The Professionals had only recorded one song, so the Steve Mancha cut was thrown onto its flip. But that it was confirmed at that time. I also never heard the confirmation that Mancha had never been a member of The Professionals. There was a back-up group Don Davis used on this version of "Did My Baby Call". It doesn't seem to be the same take of the back-up track used on the Wheelsville USA track. Does anyone here know who Davis used as back-up singers on the two recordings? I assume they were the same exact collection of singers on both, during the same recording session. I heard one or two females and at least 2 male voices, if not 3. I wonder if Melvin Davis was one of them, as he and Steve Mancha were his right-hand-men at mid '60s Groovesville. And Davis used The Holidays a few times.

I always wondered if Steve Mancha was one of 2 lead singers for The Professionals. They both were artist/groups in the Don Davis stable, and that group wasn't together very long at all. I think I do remember seeing a venue poster for an appearance in Detroit, however. So, I assume they weren't just a studio group for Davis to release 2 different records on Mancha at the same time.

Thanks for the link. It was interesting to hear him talk about his whole career. I would have liked them to play a couple Five Jets songs, and a couple of CP's Big Top cuts, as well as his Exit cuts and also "Green Grow The Lilacs. But, at least they played my favourite version of "Suspicion".

I look forward to hearing what he said.

So, it seems Simon went back to Motown to buy more "lifted" records or just innocently get new tape recordings from employees there, even after Tom left, and sell them for play on The Northern scene. So, that means that those carvers sold to DJs may have been two taping generations away from the master tapes. Yes, I also remember seeing The Four Tops' Workshop Jazz mock-up LP jacket with an LP inside. Maybe that was a 10-incher. I don't remember. The jacket had a photo of them, in a Platters' crooning style pose, with their right hands reaching out into the air. I would have bought that when it came out, for sure. I also saw tapes with those recordings, and acetates for most of those cuts.

(1) Yes, it was an alternate title, which was written on a creme-coloured label on a Jobete Music "proof-of-ownership" acetate pressing from 1965. (2) I've never heard of, nor seen a pressing with a recording which contained the words "Baby Have Mercy On Me" (nor have I heard those words used in a tape version). I think that title was just a "guess" at the title for a tape that no label and had several songs on it, and so, that "title" was transferred over to a "proof of ownership" acetate. Once that error was found out, another "proof of ownership" acetate was pressed up (as I have seen at least one, if not two of those, with "Suspicion" as the title- one using the proper red typed ink, and the other, in normal black ink (another error?)). It's not that Motown's staff was so inept that they made hundreds of record-keeping errors during 1964-68. It was because of the unbelievable amount of recording activity that was going on 24-hours a day in The Snakepit, and in 1966, adding Golden World's studio. With that mountain of paper record keeping to handle in such a short period, and such a rush to get new product heard and reviewed, and decisions made on releases, and recordings pressed up and shipped to distributors, it's no wonder that a couple hundred errors were made. In fact, in some ways, it seems a bit surprising that they didn't make significantly more.

This is a Motown demo pressing, rather than the much more common Jobete Music "proof of ownership" acetates with the creme-coloured labels. This was made for Quality Control listening, to decide about the desired background mix and decide which version was better for eventual release. They made these listening records to avoid wearing down the master tapes, and it was easier to handle quickly, just popping it onto a turntable. I first saw it in 1976. It was removed from Motown's Vault by someone after we had moved on to Airwave Records. I think it was 1988 or '89. That large batch of acetates went on auction around 1990, if I remember correctly. I was surprised that people were just lifting records out of there.

Yes, that's a real '66 Motown pressing. I saw that very copy (and another). I saw this one BEFORE "Suspicion" was written on it with a marker.This is the one Rod taped off me. I liked it better than the other one (which most NS fans seem to like better. No accounting for taste.

That's as real as real can be. Just like the one I bought in 1965. This one looks right off the Long Island presses, with the proper centre indentation, Bell Sound Stamp, correct label printing process, correct plastic and groove cut. How could ANYONE think it was a fake????? There's nothing that is in the slightest question.

Great original version! I hope Melvin earns a boatload of money from it, and his health improves a lot from the medical procedures.

Nice find! Brings back old memories.

I have since, heard both Pat Smith cuts (taken off the tapes, or acetates, later found). But, I've never heard "Shake it Baby" by The Distants. Was that ever found among Don Davis' tapes (by his son)? I'd really love to hear that cut. Does anyone have access to it? I never saw it in The Motown vaults, unlike a few of The Distants'/Majestics Thelma demos ("Hello Love", "Cry", etc.) that Richard Street brought with him when he joined Norman Whitfield, leaving Thelma for Motown.

Sorry. I have no idea who at EMI requested the Isley Brothers' masters, but I would guess that Dave Godin made the original request that EMI, in turn, would request them from Motown HQ. Yes, thank goodness Fran was so careful as much as possible was transported from Detroit's tape library to L.A.'s new facility. Of course, a fair amount of acetates and vinyl demo records didn't make it there. Luckily, many of those were "rescued" from a worse fate, and eventually got into collectors' hands and mastered off the records, for inclusion in commercial CDs, or, at least, digital availability.

I only remember seeing the local, silver-coloured Steeltown issues back during the late 60s. I never saw nationally-distributed issues. I wonder if those Atco and Musicor issues were 1969 or early 1970s issues, based on deals Keith made AFTER the group hit it big with Motown, getting all that national exposure.

I agree with everything you say here. I can tell by the label font and what is written on it, that this is very modern pressing, definitely made by non-Americans. The state is never listed before the city. Furthermore, I never saw any Betty Everett original pressing of that song by VJ. VJ recorded that song, with Calvin Carter running the session. Betty was signed by VJ directly from The Leaner Brothers' One-der-ful/Mar-V-Lus Records, when her contract with them lapsed. As far as I know, she never recorded that song with any small, Chicago label. I never saw any "Sherry Hill Records" label in Chicago back in 1962-64. Like The Yank stated above, I believe that "No Place To Hide" was issued originally on Betty's LP.

Bunny Paul was a big MOR-Pop star in the early '50s.

I can't believe I wrote that. But, I must have meant Connie Van Dyke. But, I don't remember what point I was trying to make, because Debbie Dean was signed by Motown a long time before both of them. She had been working with Berry Gordy well before he started Tamla Records at the beginning of 1959.

I've seen the blue promo, but never a white one of "Sly Girl". I HAVE, however. seen a few different white promos of other Tuba records, so they did use them for a while.

Was The Lillie Bryant shown on this "Shades Of Soul" Detroit-themed issue in error, because, at that time it was rumoured that Bryant was a Detroit artist, because her Tayster record was still being covered up, and it was not known that she was a n East Coast artist , who recorded for Tayster Records on The East Coast, as Tayster was a New York label? It never sounded like a Detroit recording to me, and all the credits are East Coast people. Or, is there some documented Detroit connection I know nothing about?

So, George Kerr and Sid Barnes probably met Biegel in 1964, when their Serenaders came to Detroit to record, and, possibly, to sign their artist contract with Motown. They must have approached him later, after Gordy closed down Jobete Music's New York office, and they had decided that they wanted to continue songwriting and recording in the Detroit Soul/Motown Sound style. Biegel saw a chance to jump on the possibility of taking advantage of their songwriting and producing talents, and connections to other young talent in the business, by teaming up with Ed Wingate, who was already somewhat successful in emulating The Motown Sound (even by using Motown's current and former musicians, arrangers, and producers).

We all knew that Maltese's artists and producers came from New York. I never heard of Irv Biegel working at Motown in Detroit. So, he must have worked with Jobete Music's New York office. And he and George Clinton, and Gene Redd Jr. and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes all liked the Detroit-style music they were making in New York. So, after Berry shut down The New York office, they all decided to continue making records using The Detroit Sound. So, they all came to Detroit and made deals with Ed Wingate, who used mainly current Motown musicians moonlighting, and most of the rest were musicians who had previously worked on Motown sessions. And their Wingate, and later, Solid Hitbound recordings, made with Don Davis (ex Motowner) at United Sound, sounded very Motowny. George Kerr and Sidney Barnes must have asked Biegel to start up his own label, and for them to record in Detroit. And Clinton and Redd thought that was a good idea, too. As I remember reading in one of the music business trade papers, Redd's Stephanye and Biegel's Maltese Records were both stated as new subsidiary labels of Golden World, and half owned by Wingate and Bratton, and that they would be distributed by Golden World (as were Don Davis' Groovesville Records (while Davis also worked for Golden World-before leaving to start Solid Hitbound Records), and Mike Hanks' MAH's Records for a while, when Hanks was cash poor). The article didn't mention Redd or Biegel, however.

Interesting to know that Maltese Records was owned by a Detroiter, and that he had previously worked for Motown Records. I had thought, in the 1960s through the 1990s, that Maltese Records was a New York label, co-owned by George Kerr and a money partner from New York, and their main office was in New York, and they recorded in both New York, and some at Golden World, and that Wingate did their pressing and distribution, out of Detroit, and Kerr was their main producer and A&R man (running their day-to-day operations). Now their set-up looks somewhat different. I'd still like to find out what George Clinton's and Gene Redd Junior's deals with Wingate consisted of. Maybe Gene Redd's Stephanye Records was one of those Maltese Records' subsidiaries that JoAnne Bratton mentioned? I've read that both Maltese and Stephanye had offices inside Wingate's building in 1965-66. I wonder if Clinton also had one? I don't remember Clinton having a Detroit label, distributed by Golden World. I think he just had a production deal with Don Davis' and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions (Revilot and Solid Hit Records). They all must have come from Jobete Music, New York, after Berry Gordy had the New York Office shut down, along with Biegel. Later, with Granoff as financier and majority owner, and, perhaps, Biegel as Operations Manager, and Kerr, chief producer.

Did Ed Wingate and Joanne Bratten REALLY want to get out of The Record Business in 1966??? Then why did they set up a new Ric-Tic Records, immediately, using many of their former workers and associates, and continuing to use some moonlighting Motown and former Motown musicians? And after that, they opened a new Golden World subsidiary (Modern Times), and also leased new productions to Wand Records, and Columbia and subsidiary, Date Records (operating in the business, at least until late 1971)? That was 5+ years after Motown's first buyout, and 3 years after the second. All that doesn't seem to back-up the theory that they wanted to leave the record-producing business. I think it was more that Wingate needed a lot of money quickly. In fact, inside people have stated for many years that Wingate first approached Gordy to ask him if he wanted to buy his recording studio. Berry even stated that, himself, and that he, himself, suggested that he would up the sale price (to a scandalous figure (I seem to remember $1,000,000) IF it would include the rest of Golden World and Ric-Tic's other assets, including its artists' contracts). Wingate jumped on that offer, but jumped right back into the music business almost immediately, re-hiring Al Kent, and several others whose contracts had been bought out (dropped) by Motown.

To me, "This Old Love of Mine" sounds nothing like "This Old Heart of Mine (Is Weak For You)", nor like Strong's "This Heart of Mine" (Artistics). It doesn't sound much like any other song he wrote that I've heard. It sounds more "Chicagoish" than "Detroitish", but has an older sound than most of Barrett's early-to-mid 1960s "Chicago Sound"-style songs. I hope we eventually discover an early mid 1960s commercially-released 45 with some Chicago artist singing it, or, at least a recording of another singer singing it.

Sorry to hear this sad news. Thanks, Mal, for uploading theses acetates' snippets. I can see Barrett sitting at the piano working out the lyrics and melody to these songs. I've never heard a version of "This Old Love Of Mine" recorded by anyone else. Did some record company release any record on it?