Robbk

So, as I had guessed, The Rose Marie McCoy recording was a demo to try to sell the song to a Record Company, but, unfortunately, we don't know who financed the demo.

Wow! The Rose Marie McCoy is stupendously beautiful! Helen Miller was a writer for Screen Gems-Columbia. Does anyone know who was the producer, and what record company paid for the recording session?

The last I ever heard on it was that her vocal was not yet found. Does anyone know that it HAS been found???

Although they could have been one in the same, based on listening to a 30-second snippet, it seems this is a different version, seemingly with tracks recorded in Detroit added. Frank's vocal sounds the same, but it sounds like a n Earl van Dyke organ track has been added. It's hard to tell if any of the rest of the instrumental is different. You can hear 30 second snippets at this website: https://www.juno.co.uk/products/a-cellarful-of-motown-volume-5/789779-01/

It's not only that if you google "Marc Gordon" you get sent to that website, it's the fact that the website includes a brief history of The Motown Marc Gordon in his so-called biography. Whoever set up that website, not knowing much about that subject, wanted to get more information on its subject. So he must have googled "Marc Gordon", and not been too observant, and not noticed that the birthdate showed 1935, and maybe not noticed that the man was already deceased. And he was unlucky enough to have been sent to a website that didn't list birth and death dates, nor a photo (which would have shown he was a Black man). To have that information as an integral part of his website and have "cross contamination", he would have had to have opened up his site for public access to allow public contribution, like Wikipedia. This just seems very weird because anyone who has any relationship to the Canadian Marc Gordon to make a website about his customer service consultancy expertise should know he wasn't a Black man, and he didn't work for Motown as a record producer, or he shouldn't be making the website without obtaining an official biography from the person being touted, or his personal business office; and he shouldn't add anything to his website before getting it approved by the person's office. This looks like some kind of assanine failed attempt to make some kind of joke.

I don't get what that BlackBean website is??? The Motown-related Marc Gordon was an African American who was born in the 1930s, and died at age 74 in 2010. That White guy pictured on BlackBean's site is still alive, and maybe in his early 50s right now. Yet BlackBean claims that young, Canadian customer service executive had the Black Marc Gordon's past, which occurred before the Canadian Marc Gordon was born!

Yes, once Jobete Music Co. ACCEPTED any given song produced by these employees/independent contractors, it was automatically owned by Jobete. But, they didn't accept every song offered to them from the overall production. They "bought" only what they wanted out of what was available (offered). I don't know the exact working relationship between Hal Davis and Marc Gordon (as individual employees PLUS being and independent contracting company (perhaps Finesse Music Co.?)). I got the idea that they were paid a base salary as Jobete Music Co. employees, and then received some additional fees as independent contractors, for each song accepted (bought?) by Jobete. I'm not sure if Frank Wilson, Chester and Gary Pipkin, Al Capps, and the other writer/producers received payment from both sources. But, I would guess that if more of their songs were accepted, they would have earned more money. I have no idea whether or not some of the writer/producers other than Hal Davis and Marc Gordon (Wilson, The Pipkins, Capps, and the others) were employees, or JUST independent contractors, receiving fees for each accepted song. I would guess that Wilson was also an employee, and, perhaps The Pipkins were, but probably the rest (Ed Cobb, Willie Hutch(ison), Al Capps, Charles Wright, and Vince Love weren't). It was clear that Berry (Motown) didn't want to sink tons of operating capital into running a big operation in L.A. that would add a lot of operating expenses to their overall firm overhead operating cost. But, they DID want a presence on The West Coast. They didn't know how much such an operation could help them, so finding a local, existing, successful producer/record label owner/A&R man to subcontract to them (at least until they would decide to run a full-fledged operation there). Hal Davis and Marc Gordon filled that bill, but didn't want to give up their independent operations. So, a hybrid operation was set up. In that way, Motown could just siphon off the best of their production, and save a lot of operating costs. If individual singers (The Holloway Sisters, The Vows, The Versatiles, Little Lisa) appeared marketable, and producers did well (Frank Wilson) they could sign them to artist contracts, and/or hire them directly.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was only guessing. In any case, the Aug. Ikettes' recording of "I'm So Thankful was made more than 6 months after Jobete Music bought the song, because Motown hadn't recorded it, nor slated it for recording and releasing during the contract-specified time window. Barbara Randolph's recording follows my other scenario that specifies that Motown didn't lose the rights to record a song and release it after the 6 month window, but simply lost the rights for "first release", explaining why there could be L.A. Jobete song releases on both Motown and non-Motown labels at roughly the same general period(a few months apart), and also in totally different years.

There might be, and also may not be. Same for "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet". Both songs on the Tollie release could have been the same exact recordings that Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson sent to Detroit as the demos for use as guides for the eventual Motown release artists. The songs were not recorded by Motown on one of their own artists, and therefore, not had a release within the the time specified in the producer's contract, so release rights reverted back to Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson. So those two leased the 2 recordings to VJ's Tollie Records. Motown still kept the tapes because Jobete Music owned the publishing rights, and Motown still had the rights to release a version on their own artist, they only lost the EXCLUSIVE FIRST rights to release. BOTH Marc Gordon/Frank Wilson AND Motown still had the rights to release records using those recordings in perpetuity after that, until some change in ownership would arise. Sometimes the recordings made for Jobete's proof of song ownership, and those made for singing guides for the eventual Motown commercial singers had complete (finished) instrumental track mixes, and sometimes not. When they weren't finished, they would differ from the "version" on the released non-Motown issued record. When the non-Motown record's instrumental was much more complete than the "proof of ownership" tape or acetate in The Motown vaults for a song that wasn't recorded on a Motown artist in a finished version, we can assume that it was re-recorded by the independent producers, or finishing tracks were added by them, later, after Motown's right of first issue deadline had passed. Sometimes, however, when the "proof of ownership or singer guide version was finished enough, the producer decided to release it as is, on his own label, or lease it, as is, to an existing record company. I'm still waiting for a mid-1964 Detroit-recorded version of "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" by Mary Wells, backed by The Funk Brothers and Motown Band to be found among the vaulted material! 😍 What was Mary Wells' loss was Mary Love's gain, and probably got her her work With Motown in The 1970s, after they moved to L.A. The "Tollie" recording may be the same recording as "Motown's " (or should I say, Jobete's). As I've written many times before, during 1963-66, Jobete Music Co. Los Angeles was operated by Hal Davis and Marc Gordon. They were employees of Jobete Music, but their services were NOT EXCLUSIVE to Motown. Under their contracts (Frank Wilson, and the other Jobete L.A producers were also included in this), they wrote songs, and produced recordings for proof of ownership, and as guides for final recording singers). Level 1) They could still produce recordings to NOT even be offered to Jobete, and could be produced by them on non-Motown artists, and released on their own non-Motown labels. Level 2) They could record songs offerred to Jobete Music, that Jobete might turn down, and not purchase. THAT is what I would call "NO interest". An example of that scenario is "The Things You Do To Me" by The Vows. Of course, Hal Davis and Marc Gordon would then publish through their own, Finesse Music, and release on their own label, or lease to someone else's label. The Frank Wilson Tollie record is NOT that situation, but rather Level 3), the case in which Jobete Music WAS interested, and bought the song, and published it. Clearly Jobete Music had interest in those songs they purchased, but not enough compared to the hundreds of other songs they published during the 6 to 12 months after their purchase, to record them by one of Motown's artists. There was a time period after the purchase that Motown had to record a given songwithin, or rights to release the first version would revert back to the L.A. Jobete producer. If I remember correctly, Motown had to record the song on one of their artists within 6 months after the purchase, or the producer could then release it. IF Motown recorded it on one of their artists, I believe they had 3(or, possibly 6) more months to release the record, or then, the rights of first release would be over, and the producer would have the rights. I believe the Barbara Randolph version of "I'm So Thankful" fit that scenario. Jobete bought the song, and had Randolph record it. But it wasn't released in the 3 months after, so there were no "first rights" any longer, and the producers were free to lease the productions to Modern Records, and I also think Modern paid Davis/Gordon to produce the final recordings on The Ikettes' session.

Merry Christmas from the white snows of Manitoba! Happy and prosperous New Year to all members.

It MUST be. I bought mine in 1965.

The top 2 of the 4 "pensioners" had grossed £178,000 and £163,000 respectively. Working out of their homes, I'd guess their overhead was less than 10% of that (probably significantly less). So, I'd guess they netted about £150,000 and £140,000. I don't feel sorry for them getting 10 months and 8 months in prison. They stole large amounts of money from buyers, and the creators of the product, and/or their children. Why should we allow selfish, uncaring, nasty people like that, who don't respect other beings' rights to gain the fruits of their labour get away with such actions with just a slap on the wrist? That's only a short bit away from condoning it. 🤬🤬🤬

All they had to do to avoid that was to not try to cheat and steal from other people (some of whom might also be pensioners)! I have pity for them only in the sense that they feel bad enough inside to become so selfish and needy that they forget that the people that they steal from are being hurt by their actions. I feel lucky that I don't feel so sad inside, like they do. BUT, I do think that they should serve time in jail if the amount they took is more than £250-300 or so. Losing that hurts people. Less than that amount, they should be made to return that amount to the injured party, PLUS an extra amount for putting them through the experience. They should also be put on probation (checked upon), and made to do social work (helping sick and old people) as penance, for several months, to let them know there will be consequences (losing their precious personal time), and to also feel what is like to help others (give, instead of take). Maybe that might even alert them to the fact that THEY, themselves, aren't the only person in The World. And that others are worse off, and helping them can make one feel accomplished. Deep down it might help them to feel good that maybe someone else MIGHT want to help THEM, when they will need help, later in life.

I would guess that SOME weird-thinking record collectors would rather pay the trifling sum of £5 more, to have a semi-rare '70s boot(which was made in small quantities, and very few are currently available), rather than a currently available issue, that ANYONE can have, at a moments notice (e.g. the '70s boot is a 40+ year old "collectable" (albeit not very valuable), for those reasons.

Isn't there a minimum amount of money obtained by fraud or theft that draws the line between committing a misdemeanor and a felony under UK law? That's the way it works in Canada and USA. I don't know the current amounts in Canada and USA, as it rises over time due to inflation. But, misdemeanor levels usually include a punishing fine, probation, and possibly public social penance work, - but no jail time. Felonious monetary levels of theft or fraud usually DO result in a prison sentence. So, I would expect a similar situation in The UK. If someone were to make up a fake high-value NS record facsimile, and fool some well-known authority/expert into declaring that it is a genuine original, and then, sell it for more £500, he SHOULD go to prison. That is stealing an honest hard-working average person's sustenance. Even though that person has made the choice to use that money for a seemingly non-essential purpose, he has already sacrificed something that an average person would think is "essential", to gather together this "mad money". There SHOULD be a substantial deterrent to keep people from hurting innocent people in this manner. The fairly small risk of being caught by the police and being fined is not enough to stop most crooks. A potential prison sentence for trying to defraud someone of £500 probably IS enough to make a reasonable proportion of the still rational selfish would-be defrauders decide not to commit that crime, or, at least to think twice about it. I think we need that deterrent. Stealing a loaf of bread to feed one's children SHOULDN'T send some one to prison (or the galleys ). I've never earned much money. So, I resent selfish, mean, nasty, crooked, sick people trying to fleece me of what little I have. There SHOULD be punishment to deter the amoral, anti-social, sick-os from taking upstanding citizens' hard-earned boodles. I'll get off my soapbox now((former Hyde Park dissident that I am), and bleeding heart liberal ), and let the fascists take over (and propose the pillory, the stocks, hanging the offenders on meathooks or danging hung by piano wire, and marked forever with the mark "RT" (Record Thief) burned into their skin with a branding iron, or being fed to the lions in the closest zoo). 😎

Man am I living in the past (only 60 years behind the times. To me, "Bip Bam, (Thank You Ma'am)" is the 1953 Drifters' song. And Bill Brown is the original bass lead singer of The Dominoes ("Sixty Minute Man"), who was also the bass, sometimes lead of The Checkers. I thought this might be a 1950s previously unreleased version of Brown as a soloist, or The Checkers singing The Drifters' song. 🤪

My father's family came from Den Haag. The woman who was the model for De Visservrouw (famous metal statue on the beach at Scheveningen) was my great aunt, by marriage. I reside there part of each year (more than anywhere else-I also spend time in Denmark, Germany, Canada and USA). I work for Sanoma Uitgevers, bv. (Dutch Disney publications), as well as Danish and Swedish Disney Pub. (Egmont Serieforleget), and German Disney Pub. (Ehapa Verlag). I have worked for Dutch Disney since 1984. I lived in Den Haag (Archipelbuurt) from 1986-2004, and a village in Nord Holland since. Spreek je goed Hollands dan?

¡Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año Nuevo mis compadres!

Hebben jullie een Prettige Kerstdagen en gelukkig Nieuwjaar!

Glad to see that Hayley will release many more previously unreleased Detroit classic period Soul gems. We can't ever get enough. The sound quality is great, too.

Looks good! Glad to see Bob's legacy won't be forgotten. Glad his great website will stay available to new listeners. I'm still in shock from his untimely passing. Every time an old thread on which he posted is resurrected, I get a twinge (and sometimes forget for a few seconds that he's gone). He was one of the few colleagues who could answer a lot of my questions. I miss him a lot.

I'm a Gypsy. I divide my year (every year) in five locations: The Netherlands (4 locations: Oude Niedorp, Leidschendam, Veldhoven, Nijmegen), Denmark (Allerød), Germany (Munich), USA (Los Angeles), Canada (Winnipeg). I'm never more than 3-4 months in any one place. So, I can't be represented by your map. But, then, I rarely participate in any events these days. So, maybe it doesn't matter.