Robbk

After we find out that it IS Joey singing on these cuts (IF we do), I hope we can get a project going to get "I Wanna Thank You" pressed up on a 45. I definitely want to own one. the more I hear it, the more attached to it I get. It really grows on one. I can't believe that Davis never put out a release on that song, or "I Won't hurt You Anymore", for that matter. And I like Joey's version of "Did My baby Call" more than that of The Professionals, and at least as good as Steve Mancha's.

No way is that "Modern Soul" song by McNeir a Groovesville Music publication. My theory here is that BMI's record keeping made an error, and confused Joey King Fish's "I Wanna Thank You" with Ronnie McNeir's. And they used Joey's Groovesville Music with McNeir's song, instead of whatever publishing company really published it. And, no, I don't think Joey wrote the two songs for Diamond Jim's labels. They had a completely different style (more funky). "I Wanna Thank you" sounds like Thelma's sweet style. I am sure he wrote that for Don Davis (maybe while at Thelma, but it was published by Don after he left Thelma, and so, was published by Groovesville (as was "I Won't Hurt You Anymore", and "Did My Baby Call". I think the two songs linked above were from the same period, and were done for Don Davis, NOT Jim Riley. I suppose it is possible that Joey wrote and demo'd those 2 songs for Jim Riley, but he didn't really release anything that sounded like that, and why then would "I Wanna Thank You" end up published by Groovesville? (unless Riley couldn't use the songs, and just gave the tape to Joey, who took it to Don Davis later, and he bought and published "I Wanna Thank You").

Did you listen to Joey's mid '60s recording of "I Won't Hurt You Anymore" (released on Goldmine Soul Supply Connoisseurs label GV102)? That's the one that sounds the same to me (NOT Joey's recent re-recording of that song, with the background group behind). His voice has changed too much over the years to try the match after a 45 year gap. Also, it's to hard to pick out Joey's voice in his duet version of that song. But, it sounds the same as his mid sixties version. If he does tell you that the song is his demo, ask him if he sold the songwriter's rights (given the 3 other names as writers on BMI's list). The song sounds to me like his writing style, and not at all like Ronnie McNeir's. I have a feeling that he wrote it, himself, and this was a demo for the final artist that Don Davis was going to use, or market to.

I'm also curious to know if that's him playing guitar, as well. He had a guitar solo release on Checkmate 1017 in 1962 as joey King. I think he wrote his songs by playing them on the guitar, and demo'd them for Thelma's, Groovesvilles and Diamond Jim/Rileys releases.

Maybe it's your age, or just changing taste. it's always nice to learn about good things you never before knew existed. Luckily for me, I started listening to such sounds from my parents' 78 records at the beginning of the 1950s. I even go back to late 1930s music (admittedly, mostly Blues and Gospel Music. I followed Black American music through the '60s. Unfortunately, I couldn't learn to like it in the '70s, when it happened, and still can't stand most of '70s Soul to this day. I won't even get into post '70s.

I played the two cuts linked above next to Joey King Fish's "Did My Baby Call" and "I Won't Hurt You Anymore". The voices sound like the same person to me. It seems odd that Joey Kingfish Stribbling would sing a song written by Ronnie McNeir in the mid '60s. It seems a lot more likely that McNeir would sing a song written by Joey King Fish. I wonder if "I Wanna Thank You" is a song King Fish wrote himself, and demo'd for Don Davis, and ended up later having sold his song writer credits to others (thus the 3 other names), but Don Davis never sold the publishing rights, thus Groovesville is still the publisher? I'd love to hear opinions of others here on this thread after listening to the 2 cuts above, and also to some recordings by Joey King Fish. I think that he's our man, and the fact that there is also a song with the same title published by Groovesville Music, together with at least one '60s Detroit songwriter on the credits, and that king Fish worked closely with Don Davis, convinces me that he's our man.

I looked up "I Wanna Thank You" on BMI.com, and found only one recognisable mid-sixties Detroit song: interestingly enough, published by Don Davis' Groovesville Music, and written by Ronnie McNeir, Herbert Houston and Walter Moore. Joey king Fish worked for Don Davis at Thelma Records, and later with Groovesville. The voice on these songs certainly doesn't sound one bit like Ronnie McNeir. I don't remember hearing songs sung by a Herbert Houston. The name Walter Moore rings a bell as a singing group member, but I don't remember which group, and it doesn't ring a bell related to Detroit.

I KNOW I've heard that rich voice before! The 2nd song, "I Wanna Thank You" is terrific (right up my alley!) and sounds like a '64 or '65 Detroit-written song. I wish I could place that voice. Maybe it will come to me, could it be Joey King Fish?

By far, the vast majority were NOT bevelled. So, I'd be careful about a demo that IS bevelled, AND doesn't have a stamp. I just meantthat being bevelled doesn't automatically make it CERTAIN that it has to be a post '60s pressing. The odds are that it is post '70s, but we can't be sure based on that. I don't remember seeing any Motown demo records pressed at American Record pressing (ARP) that were bevelled, nor any that didn't have the stamp on them. That doesn't make it CERTAIN that it was a boot, but I would go with the odds and be leery of putting out money for it, hoping that it is an authentic original.

What was that Wheel City one-sider? It wasn't Melvin Davis. I remember seeing tables of records like those in record shop sales back in the mid to late '60s and beginning of the '70s for 10 Cents each a quarter or 50 Cents each, and I left hundreds of them on the tables, because I didn't have money to buy more. And I would only buy one of each record, because I hardly knew anyone who collected records with whom I could swap. At that time I couldn't imagine buying records to sell to others.

Ron was a good friend of mine. He usually rescued old studio demos he found loose in long-forgotten boxes sitting in pressing plants. Companies that had regular orders in a given plant would leave test pressings and at lest one (if not 2) demo records at the plant as a reference for the plant operators before future press runs. It seems now, that there must have been 2 of that particular demo, as the one I found in The Vaults "disappeared"(was lifted by some employee) from there around 1980 and was later auctioned off at the same time as several other demos and Jobete Music acetates. Ron must have found the other at one of the Detroit pressing plants or mastering facilities). Often, 2 were made, one being kept at the pressing plant, and one given to the customer (hence the Motown copy in The Vault).

Now that I think of it, I don't think "I Got What You looking For" was a local hit in the early '60s. I never heard it played as an oldie on KGFJ, and it was not common at all in the record shops' oldies and bargain bins, nor in thrift shops, nor in R&B and Soul collectors' collections. Nor can I remember seeing it on California radio station charts. But Ray was still a popular Blues singer in the clubs in California all through the '60s and '70s, so Krafton's owner might have repressed several of his early records to try to sell. On the other hand, we know that that font was used by Krafton in 1963-64, so I suppose it is just a colour variation from release to release (I had only seen the maroon one, not the orangish one. But, the latter could possibly just be a scan colour variation.

I'd guess that those 2 groups had no connection. The four Tracks were a Toledo, Ohio group whose main writer was Tommy Jones (probably a group member). Their producer took them to Detroit to record (as most Toledo groups did). They had Giant's Mel Collins arrange their record. Their producer is a name I don't recognise as being from Detroit, so I assume he brought them from Ohio. The Four Voices had George Washington as a member and their creative leader. He was a known Detroiter, and had previously been a member of Detroit's Twilighters. Both of those groups were produced by William (Tony) Ewing, owner of Spin, Chex, Volume and Voice Records, and published by his Criss Music. The other writers on their songs were Othea George (known Detroit singer/writer-and I believe, also a member of The Four Voices), K. Forrest and G. Garrett, who I believe, were the other 2 group members. None of the names on The Four Voices records appear on The Four Tracks' record, and vise versa. The only things the groups seem to have in common was recording in Detroit, and having releases with similar label fonts and layouts, and, possibly pressed in the same plant.

Archer was used by Magic City (Mad Dog & Pups, Soul Tornados). In any case, according to the Archer numbers, The Mandingo release was pressed in fall, 1967.

I didn't read this post before. If this one looks different from the known '80s repros, and looks and feels like a '60s pressing, then it is likely to be an original. The one I saw didn't have Chris Clark's autograph on it. But that could have been added later at an appearance by her in The UK. The hand written writing was significantly darker on the one I had in my hand. But that was 35 years ago. So, it may well have faded some. being bevelled doesn't help us. It could have been either way in the '60s at the Detroit sound studios Motown used.

I agree with phild here. I'd be hesitant to believe the pressing in the photo is original. I can't say that it is NOT original. But, if it were my money, I'd have been skeptical, to remain safe. It looks very like the original that I found in The Motown Vault in 1977. The handwriting on the dotted lines, and stamped form is the same. But it is significantly lighter, with the printing frayed on the edges, like the effects on photocopied image. I only saw one studio demo and one Jobete Music acetate in The Vault. Both of those "mysteriously" came up for auction in the 1980s. Perhaps more acetates and "Demo copies" were made off of one of those, and new labels made from a photo of the original studio demo were made to place on them. I'd have to see the plastic in person, to comment on whether or not it looks like a genuine '60s pressing.

Maybe that was a '70s legitimate re-issue by the owner, to try to sell to the NS crowd, and he had them pressed by ALCO?

This jibes with my memories and experience. It was released in USA in Fall 1969, on the white label first. The multi-coloured palm tree design came in a later pressing, some months after Scepter took over distribution in 1970.

I definitely hear Detroit session players on the recording. It sounds very like the acoustics of Magic City(Correc-Tone)'s room. That was the studio at 8912 Grand River in Detroit that was built by Robert Bateman commissioned by Wilbur Golden, owner of Correc-Tone Records. Golden sold the studio to Ernest Burt, who started up Magic City Records there, and continued to operate the studio for outside clients as well as his own projects. Toledo was, basically, part of the Detroit Metropolitan Area, and artists there almost always recorded in Detroit with Detroit producers. I don't have the record. Can anyone who has it please tell us what is written in the groove runouts?

Paul Mooney, on 15 Nov 2013 - 4:29 PM, said: "That's a very good point Paul." It might be a good idea to sing in Diana Ross' style to demo a song to non-Motown producers, but not for an attempt to get Holland-Dozier-Holland or any other Motown producers to want to use the song for Diana to record it. They knew there was no chance that any of them would think that Berry Gordy would allow them to use a Wingate-published and/or Wingate staff written song. Gordy was trying to drive Wingate out of business or buy him out (which actually occurred, not long after this recording). He would NOT have allowed the two firms to work together on a project, which could potentially bring money into Wingate's operation.

Perhaps there's a clue to where these records were pressed on the runout wax of some of the other records with that same label font (Ray Agee, The Magnificents, etc.)?

If you say it was Motown sending Diana Ross to Golden World to record because The Snakepit was busy, then it would have been a Motown production. if thatwas in 1966, why would they have sent her to Golden World? Why would Robert Staunton be producing her-even if this occurred before his falling out with Berry Gordy, why would they have Robert Staunton producing Diana Ross, as a solo artist in early 1966? Why then was the publishing Myto Music rather than Motown's Jobete Music? I can't see Berry Gordy using a Golden World published song before the buyout. Ed Wingate was Gordy's rival, despite being smaller. Gordy was furious that he was "stealing his musicians", and scoring hits in his "backyard". he would NOT have sent his flagship artist to record leasing studio time at his rival's studio, and would NOT have recorded a Myto song, before he bought Wingate out. By the time of the first buyout, Robert Staunton was already gone from Motown, after having an argument with Gordy over pay and producer credits. Gordy would not have sent his most favoured artist to his rival's studio to record a song written by a hated ex-employee. The recording has to be Barbara Mercer singing in a purely Golden World production.

Interesting that both sides of her 45 were written by Robert Staunton (for Wingate's Myto Music), and arranged by Arthur Wright, who worked out of L.A. Solid Hitbound brought The O'Jays to Detroit and had Mike Terry arrange their cuts. This situation seemingly had Robert Staunton produce shawn Robinson in L.A. as an independent producer for Imperial (to whom she was signed as an artist). Was it a deal done by Wingate with Imperial, sending Staunton to them? Staunton had a falling out with Berry Gordy, in late 1965. Maybe Staunton just went over to Wingate's Golden World/Ric Tic just after (staying in Detroit). And then Wingate placed him in this deal. Or, maybe Staunton, who had worked in New York and Chicago, went to L.A. and made an independent deal. But, then, why weren't the songs published by Imperial's Metric Music? So, it seems more likely that Wingate made the deal with Imperial/Minit.

So, Golden World had Barbara Mercer record the song (for potential release on their own label, or as a demo for other artists). They ended up not releasing her version, but Imperial/Minit decided to produce Shawn Robinson singing it). The Barbara Mercer recording was "discovered" at the same as many other tapes from Groovesville (which included songs both published by Don Davis' Groovesville Music, that had been used by artists on Solid Hitbound Productions (LeBaron Taylor and Don Davis), and also songs that had been published by Ed Wingate's and JoAnne Bratton's Myto Music, that were, apparently, brought to Wingate by Don Davis (who worked as a producer with the former's labels, and in partnership with Wingate on particular projects. What I find that is interesting, is that neither of Barbara Mercer's Golden World 45s has even one song produced, or even written, by Don Davis. So why was that Barbara Mercer cut found, together with Groovesville tapes? It should have been found at Motown, with the other Golden World/Ric Tic tapes. Does anyone know the source of that "find" from the 1980s that resulted in the bootlegged "Groovesville Cassette" tape sales? Can anyone tell me where Shawn Robinson was from? A Detroit artist? Or just another Imperial/Minit artist who recorded a song controlled by Don Davis of Solid Hitbound Productions) arranged in the same deal that had Solid Hitbound producing those 4 songs by The O'Jays in Detroit (A similar deal that Solid Hitbound had with Verve to produce Terri Bryant)?

At least, I, myself, don't know enough about Cameo pressings to determine which was first and which was later. It's possible that at the beginning of a national release, they had pressings made on The East Coast, in The Midwest and on The West Coast (and possibly, also in The South), all at the same time. It is also possible, that one represents a later pressing (although, if so, likely in the same year, and all during the same sales run-NOT a re-issue), so why make a distinction between the two in terms of originality? Still, it seems more likely to me that they were both made within a week or two of each other, but that the difference in label design represents the difference in the typesetters and paper used by different regional pressing plants.