Robbk

I have seen lots of New York Office generated Jobete Music song publishing dates from 1963, So, I take it to mean that your statement "no records were published in 1963" referred to no vinyl records being issued contains those NY Office-generated songs in 1963.

Thanks for posting this. It substantiates things I had both heard and surmised.

As I remember, it was late may or early June of 1964 when Raynoma had the Mary Wells stock pressed up, and the office was closed down in late June or July. I think Raynoma went to New York in April of 1963, and there was some front work done bey her and Eddie Singleton, and the office was up and rolling in May. I seem to remember recording credits from May, and song publishing dates from that month, too.

You still haven't answered my question about why you ALSO mentioned her "moving to NY in 1964"). Was that just you relaying to us someone else's error or misstatement?As far as I had heard, Miss Ray and Berry were already separated (not living together) when she left to New York to set up the office. And I also knew that she rented an apartment in New York. So it could be that she came back to Detroit in early 1964 to get the last things out of her house, or the people you paraphrased made a mistake on which year it happened. Which is it? Or tell me why those numbers read "1964". Thanks.

Yes. That is what we all have known for a longlong time. What I don't understand is why Graham said above 3 times that people helped Raynoma move to NY in 1964, especially given that he also mentioned twice in the same post that she left for NY to set up the office in 1963.

Thanks for this information, Graham. I always read and heard that Raynoma left Detroit in mid 1963 to set up The Jobete Music office in New York, and moved there (getting an apartment) then. Yet you talked about her moving there in 1964 in several posts above. Perhaps she kept a home in Detroit until early 1964, and commuted back and forth until then? But the New York office's operations started in mid 1963. So she must have been mostly in New York by that earlier time. The New York office was closed down already by late summer , or, at the very latest, the very beginning of fall, 1964.

Clearly, he wanted to read stories about the early days of this website. Running his cursor over the profiles wouldn't have produced them.

I go back to 2006. That's 16+ years. I've been a member of Soulful Detroit Forum since 2 weeks of its beginning, near the beginning of 2001. Rod Shard tipped me off about that one. That was my first Soul music forum. I was on another Northern Soul forum from 2003-2006. That forum had the word, "Soul" in its title. But, I can't remember its entire name. Some members here were on that one as well. And it was, of course, run by Brits. When they folded in 2006, they direct their members to come to THIS forum; so that's how I got here. I came over to that other Northern Soul Forum at the invitation of guitarist Bobby Eli, Ray Monette, Bob Babbitt, and some other SDFers, who said that that forum was good, too. I've enjoyed the exchanging of information and great discussions over the years, here, and learned a lot. I'll be active here until I become completely senile or pass on. And I'm looking forward to the next 10 years of interesting threads and news about new discoveries of old Soul records, and getting to listen to high-quality '60s Soul that is new to my ears! I can't believe that it's been exactly 50 years since I finished amassing probably 95% of my record collection.

Yes! Absolutely that. But, doesn't that also mean "Not available or eligible for resale", which legally would apply to ANYONE trying to sell it?

I have seen hundreds of them sold in used record bins in record shops. So the "Don't Refund' or "Don't Return" command, meaning "Not for re-sale", wasn't heeded in spirit.

Actually, I started at Soulful Detroit in 2001, a few weeks after their forum started up. That 2010 starting date reflects the date when their Administrator, Lowell Boileau, re-instated that forum, on a new platform. The 1983 assumption came from the 19.8.83 handwritten on the G&G record's label. Which, incidentally, is NOT written like an American or Canadian, but rather like a European (based on the long hook on the numeral 1).

I agree. 1974-1983 seems to be the possible window for G&G. But, I still wonder about what W. Glenn's part in everything was.

I've just noticed a 2012 comment on Discogs by 313Classiccs, stating the following: In a later comment, he stated that this G&G record was issued in 1971. I've seen the name, "Gil Roberts" before, connected with '60s Detroit Soul music (and, perhaps, even Motown?), but, unfortunately, I can't remember where, or in what capacity or context.

I am sure that " 19,8,83 " refers to August 19th, 1983. What else could that string of numerals be? So, IF that makes it likely to have been a Canadian issue, why is the legally required "Manufactured in Canada" statement not written on the label's edge? It leads to the implication that it WAS, after all, a bootleg (Glenn pressing it up by himself, without Gino's participation. But, why would Glenn have pressed it in Detroit, rather than Windsor?

Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey would have nothing to do with the producing record company in Windsor in any case, unless they, themselves, were the projects' financiers, and had set up a business there, as the recording sessions were done in Detroit. The initiation of the projects came solely from Gino, who resided and worked only in Detroit. And the Perfecta Records label was his idea. Whoever the financier was on the recordings credited with the Windsor, Ontario record production company, must have resided, or, at least operated the credited business, in Canada. As the recording AND pressing and distribution took place in Detroit, the only part for the Windsor company to play was financing the projects in question. The first Perfecta issue may not have been connected with the Windsor company and its owner, or, it may have, with the production credit having been left off by accident. It would seem very odd to me, for Gino to set up a subsidiary label for just a couple of releases, during a time when his ATAC International Records operated, without going out of business. I still think that Perfecta was set up as a subsidiary label, because it was co-owned by Gino and someone else, because Washington didn't have enough money to issue those few records. He certainly didn't need to have another label because his ATAC records were flooding the charts and DJs were refusing to play so many different records of his.

I also have the G+G etched in the trailer on ATAC International AT 2743. So, apparently, W. Glenn was involved in projects with Gino for, at least a few years, leading to releases on ATAC, Perfecta, and G&G. Glenn was credited as producer on the Perfecta issues, and they were listed as "W. Glenn Record Co.", which leads me to believe that Glenn had a financial participation in those projects, rather than a technical one, given that Gino probably ran his recording sessions, and they were recorded in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and the records were also pressed in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and also the fact that none of us ever heard of Glenn as a producer or arranger of other records. It seems most logical to me, that, all the times G+G appears on a Gino Washington record, it is because Gino had to get the master from Glenn, who had kept it himself, because HE (Glenn) had financed that recording session (and in doing so, had legally become a participant in any future re-issue project). We have no hard evidence that the G&G issue came out later than the Perfecta. But because I saw lots of the Perfecta issues, and ATAC International issues, before I left USA in the mid 1970s, and never again looked for records in Detroit, and never saw even one G&G issue, and the latter has what looks like numbers that relate to the year 1983, I tend to suspect that the Perfecta issue came out in early 1970, and the G&G was a re-issue in 1983 (Seemingly with Gino and Glenn both actively participating).

Are you sure it is not, rather, 243? My copies of the Perfecta version, AND ATAC International 2743 "It's Winter (But I Have Spring Fever)" BOTH have 243 etched on them.

Does that look something like a stylised italic script single note, with a detached, slightly-curved tail on top, aiming to the right (larger than the letters "xm" to its right, before the word "detroit", written with a lower-case "d), shaped a bit like the note symbol? Or is it an etched oval, with an italic (I Y), or a fancy, italic script upper case (H) inside?

So, it seems that Gino re-released those 2 songs on G&G in 1983. Maybe he still had to do it in partnership with Glenn, because the latter had paid for their recording and original pressing, and so, kept the masters. So, he won a lot of money at the track, but still didn't have enough to both record and press up his new 45. Thus, he had to partner up with Glenn; and he set up a new subsidiary to ATAC (Perfecta) to represent that partnership. And yet, he had partnered with Glenn on other projects, but issued those recordings on ATAC. The record business has always been interesting and often surprising.

Yes, the cut of the grooves on the RPR ATAC issues looks like Monarch, but the plastic is vinyl, rather than the usual styrene for that period. So, I still wonder about the history of this release. Also, I find it hard to believe that it would get leased to Mala BEFORE first getting some test marketing done locally. Usually, bigger nationally-distributed labels would want to see some evidence of a song's popularity and likability (generally from being issued locally), cutting down the risk of spending money distributing and warehousing a "dud". This would be especially true of Amy-Mala-Bell, which was one of the few (if not the ONLY) major labels that had virtually NO in-house producers or music production staffers, who could assess, at least preliminarily, the potential for a song to sell well.

The word "Archer" is etched on mine, as is the word "Detroit", and as is also the number: 243. And now, I also notice, on the opposite side, a musical note. (or a fancy letter "d") and x m etched just before the word "Detroit', as is AT 2880. Everything is etched by hand. Same is true for my later, Detroit pressed ATAC records. There is nothing machine-stamped on any of them. They were pressed at Archer, rather than Pioneer. In fact, (this is really interesting).... EVEN the seemingly L.A. ATAC records, distributed by RPR in Los Angeles, have the word "Archer" etched in their trailers, despite having label designs that look like RPR's, used on their records pressed by L.A.'s Monarch pressing plant. Could they have been pressed at archer in Detroit, and shipped to RPR in L.A. for West Coast distribution, and had RPR put labels on them from their own printer??? I know that I got the Perfecta record between 1969 and 1971, or the first half of 1972, at the latest. But, as far as I remember Archer was pressing 45 records all the years from the mid '60s through, at least, the end of The '80s. And, I believe they pressed L.P.s into the 2000s, or, at least, started pressing again in the 2,000s. I agree that we should find out if the ATAC pressing info matches. No, I have no idea what engraving/etching or stamp marks were used commonly in US pressing plants during the 1970s, especially after 1972, as I was mostly living in Africa, The Middle East, and Holland, at that time, and didn't look for records anymore, when visiting family in US and Canada. But, I also had cut down my looking for records in 1969-72, as I had stopped listening to Soul music radio stations, and didn't like most of what was played, and just bought a few (mostly Motown) records that I liked at record shops.

I already listed what was etched on the the runout of my Perfecta copy, in a post up above. It said Archer, Detroit 243. Do you want me to post a large, high-res scan of it?

I forgot that I got the AT 2880 around 1969 or 1970. But we have the Archer pressing number (243). So we can look up its pressing date. I'm sure I've seen Archer's pressing plant list in recent years, so it must still be available to us online. We may even have a copy of it on this forum. I've seen at least 3 Perfecta 45s, ALL by Gino Washington. I think the other two were early to mid '70s releases. Apparently, for whatever reason, they were interspersed between later ATAC issues (maybe Gino had Glenn finance, record and issue them whenever he was short on cash?).

I don't remember Gino ever going by the stage name, "Sir George". That doesn't seem like something he would do. So, at, first, I thought that maybe the G&G was just issued by Glenn, alone, disguising the artist name, to make some quick cash, pressing it up in Windsor. But, the fact that I can't remember a post 1966 Canadian record not having the "manufactured in Canada" statement on its edges makes me wonder about that.

Thanks. That implies that the OTHER George Washington wasn't involved at all. Which means that Gino produced the original session, like he did most or all of the later ATAC and Perfecta sessions. Glenn was the credited producer (probably executive producer) on the Perfecta original (He and Glenn probably ran the session together. My copy has AT 2880 (an ATAC record number), and "Archer 243" and "Detroit" etched into the runout. So, the probably had the recording session in Windsor (maybe Glenn had his own recording studio - one of the reasons Gino partnered up with him?). I would guess that Gino intended to put this out on his ATAC label. I think this first issue, with "You Should Have Been True" on the B side, was released in 1969. But, I think the Perfecta re-issue was mid '70s. Glenn had a record company in Windsor, Ontario, across the river. I guess that Gino didn't have the cash necessary to cover the recording session and pressing, and either had a previous connection with Glenn, or couldn't find a financier in Detroit to take it on. It seems that one of Gino's own band did the arranging. "The Bar Keys" were credited. I guess they were his show band in 1969. He had The Atlantics for a long time, from his start in 1962 through at least 1966. I think they were his friends from high school.