Robbk

"Do The Duck" was a "G & G Production", which probably stood for Griffith (Herman) and Gordon (Marc). So Jobete's Co-Manager, Marc Gordon brought a song written by his own Jobete Music writing crew (The Lewis Sisters) to Griffith's Joker Records to press it and release it on local L.A. artists, because Motown did nothing of importance with it (e.g. not recorded by a star Motown act, and not given a release with a strong marketing push). So, we see the symbiotic relationship L.A. Jobete music had with Joker Records. Joker would provide some songwriter-producers who could write songs whose demo recordings produced by those producers could entice Motown to buy the songs, increasing Jobete's profits, and paying their staff, and Joker would also fund and produce the recording session of the production of the L.A. artist or group's final recordings, an the pressing of the records, and use their own distributor to distribute the records IF Motown DIDN'T buy the songs or have a successful sales level IF they did. That set-up formed a hedge against the potential danger of Motown's not buying songs or not creating significant residual income from their releases, allowing Jobete Music and their local L.A. record company's and their producers to get a reasonable shot at generating the sales and songwriting and music publishing residual income themselves. That worked well for the L.A. producers, Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson's "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet", "Let Me Know" and a couple others by Mary Love with her contract with Modern Records, but not with any of the Joker issues, as Joker didn't get nearly as good songs, and didn't have the best distribution and marketing staff connections. Personally, I think "Love's Gonna Do You In", by The Autographs was a good enough recording, and The Autographs were a good enough group to have a big regional hit, or minor national hit. They were really talented singers and a tight group with good harmony, and they were tight with their dance choreography, too. Like so many other groups, they could have been big stars if Motown would have signed them in 1965, and given them a proper push. But Joker didn't have the marketing clout. Griffith was a well-respected DJ in the business, but he was interested in too many different things (Civic projects, Charities, other business ventures (He owned Crain's Records, and I believe, one more business), and had big time commitments for KGFJ and his job there,- so he couldn't concentrate fully on Joker, and he didn't have a talented enough staff at the label to make it big with Griffith pulled away in so many directions.

Wilson went elsewhere, to Soul City Records, because that was Marc Gordon's label. He may have formed that label to sign promising artists that Motown didn't want to record (Al Wilson and The Versatiles, who had changed their name to The Fifth Dimension, who recorded 3 demo tapes at Motown that didn't impress Motown Enough to release a record on them (until they were signed by Motown in the 1970s). Those 2 acts had most of Soul City's releases.

"Was the Joker Records label, based in Los Angeles (?) associated with Motown? ALL the releases are published by Jobete music, the publishing affiliate of Motown Records. Did Berry Gordy own or part-own this label and use it to release records that didn't suit the main Motown labels?" L.A.'s Joker Records was owned by LA KGFJ DJ, Herman Griffith and a partner, and he was friendly with Hal Davis, who, along with producer, Marc Gordon, ran Motown's Jobete Music's West Coast Office. And ALL of Joker's songs were NOT published by Motown's Jobete Music. "Jan-Cris Music" was Joker's in-house publisher, and published most (about 75%) of their songs. Jan and Cris were the names of Griffith's two daughters. The reason for 8 of Joker's songs being published by Jobete is that several of Joker's producers and songwriters were writing songs for Jobete L.A. (like Chester & Gary Pipkin, Vince Love, Charles Wright, Willie Hutcherson (Hutch), and others). A few of them were signed to Jobete as songwriters and Producers, who produced the "proof of ownership" recordings and artist demo records. Whatever they produced that Jobete wanted to own, the company bought. Even when Jobete bought a song, the local L.A. writer/producers, by contract, had the rights to put out commercial record issues on artists not signed to Motown (often demo singers and background singers), IF and when Motown had not issued its own commercial release on that song, within 6 months of buying its publishing rights. That is how so many Jobete songs were released sung by Mary Love (LA Jobete background singer) on Modern Records, and so many Jobete songs were issued on Joker Records, and Jobete LA producer Frank Wilson, issued songs sung by himself on his own local label (Power Records), as well as VJ's Tollie Records, and by Connie Clark on Joker.

Yes, Soul King was Ron's label. It had about 5 issues (all Detroit Soul previously unreleased on vinyl). I didn't ask him, but Ron was always a real stand-up guy; so I'm guessing they were "legal".

I only ever remember seeing the light orange issue, and am pretty sure I saw it in a used records bin before 1970 (maybe 1965?). So, my guess is that it is the 1962 pressing. But, I can't be sure. I was looking for records a LOT more during the early and mid '60s than after 1969, when I was in my last year of undergraduate university and in 1970, when I was in Graduate School (university). I'll be curious to find out if the dark orange is the 1970 pressing, or just a different 1st issue press run.

Very nice to hear things from "the horses mouth" (the guys that made the music). Keep 'em coming!

Thanks Steve, for that clarification. I had thought that Garrison Records was half-owned by Garris and half by one of the Scepter-Wand partners, or the Scepter Wand Firm, similar to Motown' Rich Records (half owned by Berry Gordy and the other half by Rev. James Hendrix (and was treated like a Motown subsidiary).

Many, if not most of those Manhattan addresses were skyscrapers with large suites with hundreds of post boxes (like 1619 and 1650 Broadway). Tiny, and other small, and even mid-sized record companies had post boxes in them, to have a prestigious Manhattan address. Many of them did not have an office in those Downtown buildings, as they never could have afforded the rental costs. Even having the same suite number only meant that they were only one of several hundred post boxes in a suite filled with post boxes, that looked like the outer area post box room in a large local, or regional post office. Those 3 subsidiary labels probably just had a single room, each, inside Calla's suite of offices (which may not even been located in Lower Manhattan). And they probably all used (borrowed) Calla's meeting room to hold their business meetings.

Garris was in charge of daily operations of both Wand, and his own, Garrison Records (a Wand subsidiary). So, he may have signed the deal before the decision was made as to whether or not it was going to be released on Wand or Garrison. But, I doubt that it was first slated for Garrison and later changed to Wand. It had previously sold very well in Chicagoland, so I think they intended it for Wand from the start, to give it the best chance (promotional push) all over USA, whereas Garrison had less ability to push records outside of The Northeast, and Great Lakes Area (despite both labels being distributed by Scepter-Wand's distributors all across the nation).

I got the Ivorys on the early label font/design in late 1966, so this post has the order correct, as I also remember the later Despenza issues' designs coming in 1968 or 69, and again at the beginning of the 1970s, after its Wand run, whose issue I didn't see sold or promoted, in Chicago record shops, but only found later in thrift stores or discount store record stock dump-offs.

This is all true. The Tangiers on Decca WERE the same group on Specialty, and same as The Jets on Aladdin, ? Marks on Swing Time, Turks on Cash (with Jesse Belvin added), and Bobby Day & Satellites on Class. They had Robert (Bobby Byrd (Day) and other L.A. resident singers in their group. They were MUCH older than the Baltimore group, with NO connection possible that I can imagine.

I don't recall coming across any tapes or acetates, or demo records of "Call Me" by Chris Clark while sifting through The Motown Vaults in the 1970s, or seeing any reference to that on any Motown Unreleased CDs, or lists of Motown Recordings. I certainly would have listened to it for possible inclusion in "From The Vaults". I also don't remember seeing it on the website with the list of all Motown recordings. Chris Montez had a hit with "Call Me" in 1965 in USA; while Petula Clark did in The UK. But that was a completely different, Pop song. Edward Hamilton's song is a long-time favourite of mine, I bought when it was out.

That's not too bad. It was a bit muddier at the beginning (1st 12 seconds, or so), when Edward was speaking faster, and slurring his words a bit. So, I missed too many in the first few sentences to get much from that part. But the rest was understandable. It sounds like his memory for dates was mixed up. It sounded like he and his group (The Arabians?) were still in high school when they went to interview and try out at Motown, but were told they were too young, and to come back after they'd have graduated. So, they must have been about 16 or 17 years old. But, the year mentioned was 1966. Yet, Edward mentioned that they had had 3 records out before that interview. But the interview with Don Davis, who had been recording The O'Jays andThe Playboys/Fabulous Playboys was during Davis' and The Coleman's DaCo period, before the changeover to "Thelma Records". That must have been during 1961. So, Edward must have been born in 1944 or 1945. Then, he mentioned being interviewed by Harvey Fuqua (Maybe that was when Harvey owned Tri-Phi, in 1962 or 1963. THEN they visited Motown in '66? That sounds too late. I think they went to Motown in 1963 or 1964. Maybe his memory for the years was cloudy, or he was coming up with memories so fast that the listener can't tell which information he popped up with matched with which bits of information he'd given us before. At least we now know around which years he was born, which usually had just a question mark on his bios which I've seen. He'd be just about my age now, maybe one year older. Anyway, we'll be glad to hear the entire interview even at this quality. Thanks for your hard work. I always like to hear what happened in the 60s Detroit music scene, when I was a late teenager scrounging around in that City's thrift shops, and record shop bargain bins. I had little knowledge of what was going on inside the record companies, at that time. I've learned a lot since, but really enjoy filling in the gaps even this many years later, when many of us who were around, are now gone from this Earth.

This clip was a bit muddier, but still clear enough to understand. If most of it is that good, it is well worth dubbing into an MP4 for uploading to this forum.

The sound quality of that 5 seconds is fine. It was clear, and I understood every word without straining to hear (I'm 77 years old and have been begged, for the past 10 years, by my younger siblings to get a hearing aid. That sounds crisp and clear, considering you were on the opposite side of the room. Luckily, no one else was talking at the same time. Considering that no one else seemed to have been in the room, why were you so far from him? Was he ill with a communicable disease, at the time?

Great interview! Thanks very much for uploading it, and all the rest.

Thanks Graham, Did Al mention for which record company and which producer he recorded it, and in which studio? I assume it was recorded in New York. I'd like to hear it, and match it against Jackie's 1965, later, slow ballad version.

That's precisely why I stated that Kent's Wizard was a New York label as opposed to L.A.'s Wizard for whom Hal Davis recorded.

Al wrote "Am I The Man" for Jackie Wilson, which is one of my favourite songs by both Wilson and Kent (who recorded it for New York's Wizard Records (not to be confused with L.A.'s Wizard, for whom Hal Davis recorded). I thought I had ALL Kent's records, but don't remember him having a release of "Lonely Teardrops". Although I have "Dat's Why I Love You So" and "Am I The Man" on commercially issued records. He DID write in his book that "Lonely Teardrops" was the 3rd of the 3 songs he recorded before Jackie. So, apparently Billy Davis had Al sing the recorded demo for Jackie to use as a guide (unless somehow I've forgotten it is on the back of one of his records I have, or I somehow missed one of his releases).

Thanks Graham. Yet another great interview. I enjoyed it as much as all your others. Nice to hear things about 1960s Detroit right "from the horses mouth", instead of 3rd hand hearsay.

Hi Graham, thanks for providing the information on Don. I assume his talking about his time outside Detrroit, was mostly about when he and his Jazz combo, the Don Davis Trio, was touring The USA and Canada. I, too, look forward to hearing the interview.

Yes, Martha Jean was one of the biggest DJs in Detroit. But, I never knew she was ever a partner in Don Davis' Groovesville records. Wouldn't that have been a "conflict of interests", and illegal, by 1965, if she played their records on her radio show??? I do remember lots of DJs owning record labels. But that was mostly during the 1940s, '50s, and very early '60s, which I think was before the law went into effect (which, I believe was what brought it on). Furthermore, I don't remember Martha Jean Steinberg or Roger Brown being involved with Don Davis' and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions and Revilot and Solid Hitbound Records. Maybe they just became junior partners in Davis' new Groovesville Records (turquoise label), whose ownership was not shared by Taylor, but only had its distribution handled by Solid Hitbound Productions; while both Revilot and Solid Hitbound Records were each 50% owned by Davis and Taylor. Or maybe they were just a stop-gap funding and connections source, and Davis broke off his partnership with them before partnering with Taylor? And LeBaron Taylor was still a popular Detroit DJ when those labels were operating. So, I guess it was no problem for Martha Jean to have been a minority owner in Groovesville. I guess the payola scandals of the 1950s installed such regularly-formatted rules about how radio station playlists are formed, and such scrutiny on their business income and payroll book records, that DJ record company part-owners had nothing to fear or hide. Now that I think about it, I could probably name more than 75 DJs who had part or full ownership in record companies between 1945 and 1970.

If so, that situation must have occurred when Davis was finished with his working partnership agreement and distribution deal for his new Groovesville Records (2nd incarnation), with Ed Wingate and Golden World/Ric Tic Records, and before he started his new partnership with LeBaron Taylor, in Solid Hitbound Productions, his revived (3rd incarnation of Groovesville Records, and partnership in Revilot and Solid Hitbound Records. Sonny Sanders was the arranger, Ronnie Abner was a songwriter on Whirlpool (both co-workers and former partners); and Mancha was also a former Davis affiliate (having recorded for his Golden World-distributed (white Groovesville). Groovesville and Mah's Music shared the publishing. Based on what Davis said in his interview, I'm guessing that this may have been Davis' partner, Roger Brown, going to Mike Hanks to make a pressing/distribution deal, because Davis was short of cash, being in between operating his own labels, and they wanted to get both the Mancha and Jimmy Gilford records out quickly. I'm guessing that Roger Brown was the all-Pro defensive tackle 7-year 1960s player for The Detroit Lions NFL US football team, joining Rosie Grier(NY Giants/L.A. Rams) & Roosevelt Brown(NY Giants), Jim Brown(Cleveland Browns), and the 4 L.A. Rams who also were partners in Soul Music record labels.

All of them were D-Town artists at that time. And NONE were used by Davis' Groovesville Productions around that time, although Tom Storm and his Peps were some of Davis' favourites and most used BG groups when they worked for him when he had managed and co-owned Thelma Records. So, THAT tells me that this Don Davis production wasn't a totally, Don Davis Production run totally inside HIS Groovesville shop, recorded at United Sound, and just leased to Mike Hanks' Wheelsville USA. It was likely Don Davis working inside D-Town/Wheelsville, probably as a joint-venture, with Hanks having at least a little active part, and the recording possibly done in The Pig Pen. So, the BG group likely was formed using D-Town/Wheelsville singing artists. The grouping of singers used in the Cody Black session is as good a guess as any to have been used on this one.