Robbk

So! He was just joking about thinking Alexander might really be Andy Williams! A little hyperbole on Alexander's lack of soulfulness, eh? Ha! Ha! And would you believe I'm still making a living as a comedy writer (albeit mainly for kids)? As The Americans think British humour is so dry and subtle, what must they think of mine, which is so subtle, it can't be detected with a microscope? I guess that's why I work for a Dutch company! I was banished from USA media for having no sense of humour! Holland has always been known for taking in the unwanted! Nevertheless (as Billy Butler once sang),.........I'd love to be in on the joke of that Tiny Tim/Supremes reference! What's the deal with that?

That's typical for a woman's handwriting, as opposed to a man's, but I wouldn't say it's typical of American, any more than a Canadian, Dutchman or a Dane. I don't really remember noticing that Brits have uglier-looking handwriting than Americans.

Absolutely! A. Harris is a writer on some Sir Rah cuts. I seem to remember A. Harris as a writer on many Detroit Soul songs on various small labels. I'd bet he is a co-owner of Boss, together with the owner of Sport records. I've seen the names "Al Harris", "Andrew Harris", "Art Harris" and "Albert Harris". I can't remember which were on Detroit labels. Anyone here have an idea who A. Harris is? I DO remember that we discussed Sport Records on a few threads on Soulful Detroit. And, I believe that Ron Murphy or Ralph Terrana told us who the owner was. But that was one of the pre-2005 lost threads. So, I can't look it up. The loss of The SDF Archives is a terrible loss. There was a tremendous amount of information in those classic threads, much of which came from now-deceased forum members, who had been people in the music industry in Detroit during the 1960s.

Why would crooner Andy Williams be moonlighting, signed to a tiny Detroit label? At that time, he had a large contract with a major label. Did he need more money? Was he likely to make money from sales of a non-plugged lousy record on a tiny label? Was he looking for it to get him more gigs in Detroit? He was at his height in show business at that time-a superstar. He had his own high rated TV variety show at that time, and had a lot of clout with powerful NBC. He could command whatever he wanted for any appearance. It makes NO sense at all. The similar voice, name initials and twinkly piano have to be just coincidences. Andre Williams was currently working for Sport (Super Sonic Sound Productions (who also produced Boss)), as producer, songwriter and artist with "Pearl Time" on Sport 105. Clearly, A Williams is Andre Williams.

I've never seen it.

She went to my high school (Bowen High School in South Chicago), just 20 years later than I. Bowen had a fabulous music department, which churned out many great musicians, and a lot of good Soul singers.

I think that THAT Boss Records (no connection with The Celebrities' Boss) was owned by the owner of Sport Records, as was Sir Rah Records. They ALL have John L. Music, with at least half participation in the publishing, and, otherwise full participation. The sharing participation is represented by Daedalian, Earlbarb, and Chatlee Music, which represent varying combinations of Pied Piper producers (Jack Ashford, Lorraine Chandler, Mike Terry, and possibly, Herbie Williams and Joe Hunter, etc.). The overriding link is the owner of Sport, who likely financed all 3 labels. The Pied Piper producers may have had some ownership participation in Boss and Sir Rah, but I think they were just production staff for Sport. Sport also had some connection with Chicago, with, I believe, Andre Williams producing some cuts there. Along with John L. Music, Super Sonic Sound Productions produced ALL productions of all 3 labels. That's a group that, like John L. Music, represents the owner of Sport, and both Sport productions using Pied Piper people, and also those using other Detroiters, such as Johnny Allen and Andre Williams, and Dale Warren. So, my guess is that Boss is NOT a Pied Piper label, but a label owned by Sport's owner, possibly as a joint venture with Pied Piper people, but, more likely to have been just hiring them to produce the sessions. I doubt that there was a connection between Detroit's Giant Records and the Super Sonic Sound Productions labels, other than Pied Piper people working on their productions. Reggie Alexander and Johnny Dixon were Detroit Soul singers who had some other Detroit Soul releases. I remember seeing Johnny Dixon's name as a group member (but forget which group). If I'm not mistaken, Jeen & Him were a Caucasian duo. Jeen was probably named Jean Carter, writer of one of their songs. I'll be curious to find out the real story of Sport, Boss and Sir Rah Records from Lorraine, rather than just conjecture.

I have the original Argo 5277 in mid 1956. It has the black top with ship design. It has Oscar Wills singing "Flatfoot Sam" on the A side, and Paul Gayten's band playing "Nervous Boogie" on the B side. The Oscar Wills A side ("Flatfoot Sam") was also released on Checker (870) some months later by T.V. Slim (Oscar Wills' stage name). I have seen your misprint issue before. It is just a misprinting, is it not? -with the "Flat Footsam" side as the vocal by Oscar Wills/T.V. Slim? Or is it just an instrumental by Paul Gayten's band? The all black issue is an oldie re-issue from 1958.

The oldest Argo design was silver top with ship, and black bottom. Then, it reversed to black top with ship, and silver bottom. Then it went to all black. It was called Marterry before it was Argo.

Yes, Gene Brooks. That was the name given on the SDF thread. He must have paid for the session, and Wylie got a a share for producing it and 'distributing" it, and why it was a "subsidiary" of Wylie's A Go Go Records.Maybe they pressed 200, and most ended up stored by Brooks, and finally destroyed.

It was DEFINITELY recorded in 1966. I seem to remember Ron Murphy having gotten a copy of it from the local, Detroit pressing plant (was it Archer? or American?, some time in the early 1970s, when he got several other rare Detroit records (when he bought for almost nothing, old pressing plant stock test pressings that had been kept (as a policy) for 2nd press runs. That's the same method by which he obtained The Frank Wilson on Soul and several other rare Motowns. THAT particular GeneBro may never have gotten to The UK, as he probably sold it in the EARLY '70s. It may be in a local Detroiter's collection. I agree with the theory that Popcorn may have recorded Little, for a "custom" job, and that it never got distributed, and the stack of them that never even got to record shops may have been destroyed by now. I used to drive to Detroit (from Chicago) one or two Saturdays a month to look through record shops and thrift shops, and NEVER saw a copy, and never saw one in any of my big Motown/Detroit Soul collector colleagues' collections. It IS a dead rare record, but, I'd guess there are, maybe at least 15-20 sitting in people's collections in UK, USA and Canada, rather than only 4 in The World. There a a lot of collectors in North America, who bid on records with false names, who remain completely unknown in collectors' circles. I met many over the years (back in the day) fighting with them over finds in thrift stores and record store bargain bins. They don't let anyone see their collections, and don't want anyone to know what they have. Regarding the label name, if I'm not mistaken, on a pre-2004 Soulful Detroit Forum (SDF) thread we had several of our posters who were around in the business in the 1960s comment on that record among many other rare Detroit labels. Ron Murphy told us that "Gene Bro" was ONE person, the financier of the record, his name was Gene Bro_ _ _ _ _. I remember having seen the full last name, and Murphy even told us something about the man. We had tonnes of fantastic threads like that (where I've picked up MUCH of my knowledge about Detroit and Chicago Soul records). Unfortunately, when the Soulful Detroit website moved to a new, larger capacity platform, ALL the SDF thread Archives from its inception in 2001 through summer 2004 were lost (including hundreds of "classic threads" with more than a hundred posts and hundreds of label scans per thread). It was a tragic loss and a horrible thing to happen. We had posts by Joe Hunter, Jack Ashford, Clay MacMurray, Spyder Turner, Bobby Eli, Ray Monnette, many deceased big-time Detroit record collectors and many other artists and producers from the 1960s.

I've never heard of any such recording. Why hasn't a recording of it surfaced? I can't imagine Marvin Gaye singing THAT song, nor any producer at Motown producing him singing it! I don't think it's a song for a man to sing, but, even if it could be, it's not something for Marvin Gaye to sing.

"Ask The Lonely" by The Four Tops, which was released at a time fairly close to Marton 1002, pressed by RCA, had a code of " S4KM-0703-1-E " ALL stamped into the deadwax. S-stands for 1965, (4KM same as listed above by Chalky), 0703 number of the pressing from the start of 1965 to that point, 1 stands for 1st press run, E stands for "RCA EAST pressing plant"-(e.g. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania). If Marton 1002 orange press run in 1978 had been pressed by RCA, it would have had whatever code they were using then. I don't own ANY records that are that recent pressed by RCA, so don't know their late 1970s codes. But, clearly, in any case, there is no pressing plant press code whatsoever.

I have seen some Arctic records distributed inside Jamie/Guyden sleeves, but most came in plain brown sleeves.

I've never seen any, and I was looking for records in Chicago 3-4 times per week, and 1-2 Saturdays per month when it was released and for all the months after, through April 1972. I seem to remember some Golden World and subsidiaries using stickered stock pressings for DJs, but only for a few records.

The Ollie Jackson Jobete published cuts were produced by Royce Esters, who later became a lawyer, and a major player in the US civil rights movement and NAACP. I don't remember seeing his name on any other records. Do any of you remember him writing any songs or producing any other L.A. Soul records?

Same for me on 120, 137 and 142. I've never seen "Oh How It Hurts" on 120.

Ady wrote above that Ace will release a CD including them, next year. I doubt that anyone will press 45s of those cuts.

No problem. I wasn't offended. I know what hyperbole is. I just don't want people to think I'm 85. I'm 68 going on 69 years old. I started collecting records at a very young age.

To be quite frank, there is no way to tell for sure. But. with NO evidence or clues pointing towards rights owner's involvement, it is wisest to assume, until we get more information, that it is a bootleg. If RCA had been involved, it would have been pressed in RCA's regional plant, and would have had an RCA pressing code. It does not.

Just an aside: The credits on The Autographs' "Sad, Sad Feeling" (both on Joker and Loma) are incorrect. The dash between Freeman and King is incorrect. The two writers were Freeman King (who was a songwriter and producer-and later an actor) and Fred Hughes. American '70s and '80s TV and film fans should recognise this face (Freeman King). He produced The Robins on Burn Records, and several Soul releases on Imperial, as well as a few other small indie label releases.

ARP was American Record Pressing Plant in The Detroit Metro Area (Owosso, Michigan). Why should that indicate East Coast to you? The Cincinnati address was probably Herman Lewis/Griffin's, but both his solo and duet, and also Cody Black's cuts on that label all sound like they were recorded in Detroit, with Detroit sound studio acoustics and Detroit session players. And ARP means they were pressed near Detroit. I think they were recorded and mastered in Detroit.

Not bloody likely! Parlor Productions was defunct before 1965. Marton records was defunct by early 1965. IF there was any participation, at all, in 1978, by the former owner of Marton, it was as the individual rights owner, taking his master tape and label art, and having new records pressed up. The orange re-issue is a facsimile, other than by colour, and so, "Parlor Productions" is written on the label, because the new label was taken from the original label art. The fact that "Parlor Productions" is written on the orange records is the so called "source" for that discog entry. Parlor Productions likely had a co-owner with Clinton that financed the operating funds. Clinton's partnership with him, and Marton's owner (IF he was a different person, was likely ended when the partnership dissolved. I'll bet if we were to ask George Clinton if he got any money from the sale of the orange Tamala Lewis pressings, he'd have said, "Huh??? IF the former owner of Marton Records was involved AT ALL, I'd bet Clinton never got his share. What we DID tell you, that you've ignored, is that there is NO RCA pressing code on the Marton records, As stated above, had RCA pressed and market and distributed them such a code would have been in the trailer of those records, as well as printed on the labels, and a reference to RCA's participation would have been described in print on the labels.

I've only been collecting for 61 years, but I've noticed many errors in discogs, and I've helped a lot of the label discographers fill in their holes and correct errors. As stated above, Discogs having an entry is no verification that that given entry can be trusted.

Herman Lewis was also known as Herman Griffin. He was from Cincinnati, and worked many years in Detroit for Motown and Correc-Tone, and as an independent producer there. He was Mary Wells' first husband, and Gigi of The Charmaines was his long-time girlfriend and 2nd wife, and he produced them. He worked mainly in Detroit, and a litle bit in Cincnnati. Herman Griffith was an L.A. DJ, record producer, songwriter and record shop owner. They are two very different people. No. I never met Herman Griffin. Had I met Griffin, I'd probably have chewed off his ear off, chastising him about his advising Mary Wells to quit Motown. But, maybe it's better that I didn't, as he once shot Robert West (with a gun) for trying to interfere with his influence on her. Stone Blue was located in Cincinnati, but i thought most of their recordings were made in Detroit.