Robbk

I agree with everything you say here. I can tell by the label font and what is written on it, that this is very modern pressing, definitely made by non-Americans. The state is never listed before the city. Furthermore, I never saw any Betty Everett original pressing of that song by VJ. VJ recorded that song, with Calvin Carter running the session. Betty was signed by VJ directly from The Leaner Brothers' One-der-ful/Mar-V-Lus Records, when her contract with them lapsed. As far as I know, she never recorded that song with any small, Chicago label. I never saw any "Sherry Hill Records" label in Chicago back in 1962-64. Like The Yank stated above, I believe that "No Place To Hide" was issued originally on Betty's LP.

Bunny Paul was a big MOR-Pop star in the early '50s.

I can't believe I wrote that. But, I must have meant Connie Van Dyke. But, I don't remember what point I was trying to make, because Debbie Dean was signed by Motown a long time before both of them. She had been working with Berry Gordy well before he started Tamla Records at the beginning of 1959.

I've seen the blue promo, but never a white one of "Sly Girl". I HAVE, however. seen a few different white promos of other Tuba records, so they did use them for a while.

Was The Lillie Bryant shown on this "Shades Of Soul" Detroit-themed issue in error, because, at that time it was rumoured that Bryant was a Detroit artist, because her Tayster record was still being covered up, and it was not known that she was a n East Coast artist , who recorded for Tayster Records on The East Coast, as Tayster was a New York label? It never sounded like a Detroit recording to me, and all the credits are East Coast people. Or, is there some documented Detroit connection I know nothing about?

So, George Kerr and Sid Barnes probably met Biegel in 1964, when their Serenaders came to Detroit to record, and, possibly, to sign their artist contract with Motown. They must have approached him later, after Gordy closed down Jobete Music's New York office, and they had decided that they wanted to continue songwriting and recording in the Detroit Soul/Motown Sound style. Biegel saw a chance to jump on the possibility of taking advantage of their songwriting and producing talents, and connections to other young talent in the business, by teaming up with Ed Wingate, who was already somewhat successful in emulating The Motown Sound (even by using Motown's current and former musicians, arrangers, and producers).

We all knew that Maltese's artists and producers came from New York. I never heard of Irv Biegel working at Motown in Detroit. So, he must have worked with Jobete Music's New York office. And he and George Clinton, and Gene Redd Jr. and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes all liked the Detroit-style music they were making in New York. So, after Berry shut down The New York office, they all decided to continue making records using The Detroit Sound. So, they all came to Detroit and made deals with Ed Wingate, who used mainly current Motown musicians moonlighting, and most of the rest were musicians who had previously worked on Motown sessions. And their Wingate, and later, Solid Hitbound recordings, made with Don Davis (ex Motowner) at United Sound, sounded very Motowny. George Kerr and Sidney Barnes must have asked Biegel to start up his own label, and for them to record in Detroit. And Clinton and Redd thought that was a good idea, too. As I remember reading in one of the music business trade papers, Redd's Stephanye and Biegel's Maltese Records were both stated as new subsidiary labels of Golden World, and half owned by Wingate and Bratton, and that they would be distributed by Golden World (as were Don Davis' Groovesville Records (while Davis also worked for Golden World-before leaving to start Solid Hitbound Records), and Mike Hanks' MAH's Records for a while, when Hanks was cash poor). The article didn't mention Redd or Biegel, however.

Interesting to know that Maltese Records was owned by a Detroiter, and that he had previously worked for Motown Records. I had thought, in the 1960s through the 1990s, that Maltese Records was a New York label, co-owned by George Kerr and a money partner from New York, and their main office was in New York, and they recorded in both New York, and some at Golden World, and that Wingate did their pressing and distribution, out of Detroit, and Kerr was their main producer and A&R man (running their day-to-day operations). Now their set-up looks somewhat different. I'd still like to find out what George Clinton's and Gene Redd Junior's deals with Wingate consisted of. Maybe Gene Redd's Stephanye Records was one of those Maltese Records' subsidiaries that JoAnne Bratton mentioned? I've read that both Maltese and Stephanye had offices inside Wingate's building in 1965-66. I wonder if Clinton also had one? I don't remember Clinton having a Detroit label, distributed by Golden World. I think he just had a production deal with Don Davis' and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions (Revilot and Solid Hit Records). They all must have come from Jobete Music, New York, after Berry Gordy had the New York Office shut down, along with Biegel. Later, with Granoff as financier and majority owner, and, perhaps, Biegel as Operations Manager, and Kerr, chief producer.

Did Ed Wingate and Joanne Bratten REALLY want to get out of The Record Business in 1966??? Then why did they set up a new Ric-Tic Records, immediately, using many of their former workers and associates, and continuing to use some moonlighting Motown and former Motown musicians? And after that, they opened a new Golden World subsidiary (Modern Times), and also leased new productions to Wand Records, and Columbia and subsidiary, Date Records (operating in the business, at least until late 1971)? That was 5+ years after Motown's first buyout, and 3 years after the second. All that doesn't seem to back-up the theory that they wanted to leave the record-producing business. I think it was more that Wingate needed a lot of money quickly. In fact, inside people have stated for many years that Wingate first approached Gordy to ask him if he wanted to buy his recording studio. Berry even stated that, himself, and that he, himself, suggested that he would up the sale price (to a scandalous figure (I seem to remember $1,000,000) IF it would include the rest of Golden World and Ric-Tic's other assets, including its artists' contracts). Wingate jumped on that offer, but jumped right back into the music business almost immediately, re-hiring Al Kent, and several others whose contracts had been bought out (dropped) by Motown.

To me, "This Old Love of Mine" sounds nothing like "This Old Heart of Mine (Is Weak For You)", nor like Strong's "This Heart of Mine" (Artistics). It doesn't sound much like any other song he wrote that I've heard. It sounds more "Chicagoish" than "Detroitish", but has an older sound than most of Barrett's early-to-mid 1960s "Chicago Sound"-style songs. I hope we eventually discover an early mid 1960s commercially-released 45 with some Chicago artist singing it, or, at least a recording of another singer singing it.

Sorry to hear this sad news. Thanks, Mal, for uploading theses acetates' snippets. I can see Barrett sitting at the piano working out the lyrics and melody to these songs. I've never heard a version of "This Old Love Of Mine" recorded by anyone else. Did some record company release any record on it?

Most of those foreign language Motown songs I remember were recorded between 1964 and 1966, including songs by The Supremes, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, The Velvelettes, The Four Tops, Martha and The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes. I remember a few from 1967, but didn't pay attention to that from 1968 on, despite being in the offices periodically throughout much of the 1970s. But, I don't remember the individual song titles. I only have a few on vinyl, and don't remember where I have them stored. I do remember that The Velvelelettes recorded more than an LP's worth in French, because Cal was a fluent speaker in that language. Those were mainly recorded from 1965-66, possibly with a few more in 1967. Most I remember from 1964-67 were German, Italian, French, and Spanish. And many of those have already been mentioned by other posters in this thread.

Can we listen to it?

I have no doubt that they were a studio only group. I've never seen any physical vinyl or acetate record of a group with that name, or any other reference to a group with that name. I suppose that they could have been an actual existing group who made studio recordings and released recordings under another group name. Budget record labels used both such existing groups for studio work, and also individual singers to piece together an ad-hoc group only for that single session.

Happy Holidays, everyone, and a healthy and prosperous New Year!

If a person spends much (possibly inordinate amounts of) time searching for, and procuring, streamed music, in the form of digital files, of a given genre and subtype, through purchase, procuring through cost free offer, "stealing" from websites not "offering" said sound files to visitors, requests of friends, and swapping homemade files, wouldn't that person have a collection of digital files (of that particular type of music), and, therefore, shouldn't he or she then be considered a collector of digital files (of that particular type of music ??? (-especially if said person takes great amounts of thought and research, and takes pride in his or her historical knowledge of the genre used in arranging the listings of such files in particular categorical subgroups.)

You are, indeed, a true "collector". People who collect more than one type of item are even more of a "collector" than the people who collect only one type of thing to the "Nth degree".

To me, a record collector (or a collector of anything) is: (1) A person who places a high priority in procuring many items of a given specific or similar type, and (2) Continues to look for examples of those he or she does not yet possess, and may enjoy (3) arranging them in particular orders (such as by catalogue issue number and shelf or wall representing city of company headquarters), or groupings (such as by issuing record company and/or record distributor), and may enjoy (4) continuing to search for them until all the items of that type are procured, and who might (5) only will except non-original items (later re-issues) as placeholders for until an original can be obtained (and placeholders are not considered part of the collection) *This separates their "collector identity" from their fandom identity. (6) Is willing to pay more than market rates for items missing from a series, and willing to keep items in such groupings, even when they are liked a lot less than most in the series, or even sometimes not liked at all, just to own the complete series of all that type of thing, and might be (7) willing to amass what to a "normal" person would seem a ridiculous amount of such items, taking up a ridiculous amount of space (some of which would involve a an extra storage facility for which might also require regular additional periodic payment, and whose acquisition might cost to what a "normal" person, would be an inordinate (or scandalous) amount of monetary assets for which said items would seem unworthy.

Stands to reason. I knew Bateman was a co-partner in HIB Records. But, he had been living in New York for 2 years by then, and although still bouncing between the 2 cities, was staying a lot more in The NY Metro Area than in Detroit. So, I figured he might have sold his house in Detroit.

Was that house owned by Popcorn Wylie? It certainly wasn't the home he lived in in 1965, from what I remember, and the photo shown on his webisode on Soulful Detroit.

You've seen purple at my house, back in 1980 or so.

Thanks Ken, I didn't know that Joe Martin had owned Relic Rack Music Shop and Relic Records. I did know that Lavatelli had owned it at one time.

So far, I have found out that Joe Martin owned both labels, but George Clinton was only involved in Marton Records ("Mar" for Martin, and "Ton" for Clinton), as a co-owner. But, Kay=O was either owned solely by Martin, or co-owned by Martin and the owner of DW Records. I'd also like to find out the story of why 3 writing crews for NY Jobete Music, George Clinton's, George Kerr and Sidney Barnes', and Gene Redd Jr.'s, ended up working with Ed Wingate's facilities, having offices in his buildings, and have their records either issued on Wingate's labels (Clinton's on Golden World and Ric Tic), or created new Detroit-based labels to release their Detroit produced recordings (George Kerr's Maltese and Gene Redd's Stephanye), and have them distributed by Wingate's labels/distributors. So, if anyone can answer the questions, I would appreciate that, as well.

This thread was spawned off the "Miss Motown" thread, because this is more about George Clinton related New York Jobete Music Office-generated productions, and their issuance on non-Motown labels than about Raynoma Gordy and her work for that office. I am primarily interested in Marton and its apparent sister label, Kay=O Records, because every song on their only 3 records I've seen, have been published by Jobete Music Co. I have done some research, and found out that the owner of New York's Marton Records was named Martin (I have forgotten his first name) but had it at one time. Also, he was the owner of Apex Music Publishing Co. and Martin Music , and Apex productions. On both the Marton records, and on the Kay=O record, Jobete Music shared publishing rights with Martin's Apex Music, and on the Kay=O record, Jobete shared with both Apex and Martin Music. So, it is very clear that both labels were at least Co-owned, if not solely owned by Martin. It's also clear that The Tamala Lewis record's sides were produced by George Clinton and his Parlor Productions (through Jobete Music). The Roy Handy on Marton was also produced by Clinton, and his Parla Productions through Jobete Music's office. The Bobby Moore record lists D.W. productions, who produced Bobby's D.W. Records as lead singer of The Fourmost/s. This was New York Bobby Moore (former Little Bobby Moore ("Do The Ginger Snap" on King Records), as well as "Pinky" on Seg-Way Records, and "It Was a Lie" with The Fourmost on D.W./Red Bird, rather than Atlanta's Bobby Moore (who sang with The Rhythm Aces). That is all I know about these 2 labels, and I'd like to know more about them including Martin's first name, his place in the business, and whether or not he was just a financier, or had more to do with the day-to-day operations, what recording studio, arranger, and musicians they used, and if they had any connection to D.W. Records (other than recording Bobby Moore), and whether or not a Jobete Music producer produced the recording used for Jobete's proof of ownership recording and Martin just used that, or D.W.'s Production crew recorded the final mix version. Can anyone here add more information?

Thanks Graham. Actually, I don't have Raynoma's book. Is there a list of the 12 1964 songs? Actually, I'd like to see a list of the 1963 and '64 NY Jobete, and 1963-65 LA Jobete songs, IF they exist. I'm sure I have most of the records issued with NY Jobete songs (probably all). But, I'm too lazy to look blindly through my NY wall and major records wall to find them. I can't spare several hours. I guess I could order Raynoma's book through Amazon.