Robbk

I believe Fred Bridges on this one. He's stated many times that his Brothers of Soul sang the songs that were released as The Creations. Perhaps Al Green and his group were slated to sing Bridges', Knight's and Eaton's two songs for Zodiac Records, and Ric Williams didn't like their singing, but liked Fred's Brothers of Soul on their demo of their song, so he had them cut it at the session, and used that better version? If I remember correctly. Fred said that they recorded those 2 cuts at United Sound, in Detroit. I believe that, given the sound of the musicians on those 2 cuts. Clearly, they included several Motown regulars, and probably several of the regular non-Motown guys, George McGregor, Melvin Davis, Don Davis, McKinley Jackson, etc. I doubt that Hot Line recorded Al Green's group at United Sound. I don't hear the regular Detroit session players on "Back Up Train" and "Don't Leave Me". "A Dream" and "Footsteps" were both written by Bridges, Knight and Eaton, and The Creations sound like them. It's possible that Green's group DID sign a contract with Ric Williams, but also likely that they didn't get a release. We've seen many, many cases in which a given group was slated to record certain songs in a session, and the producer didn't like their first few tries at it, and substituted a different lead, or, more often, a different group, and went on with the session. That's how Edwin Starr sang "I'll love You Forever" instead of The Holidays' lead singer.

I did a search on Soulful Detroit Forum Archives and found a thread about Al Green(e) and Hot Line Music Journal Records. The basic thread information on those 2 subjects was provided by my old friend Ian Melia. He's a good guy. BUT, he is not a professional researcher. He takes things he reads on The Internet, and doesn't research them, to verify. Also, sometimes he takes things out of context. There were several errors in what he wrote about Al Greene's group history. Off the top of my head, he stated that Al Greene and his Hot Line group also recorded as The Creations' cuts on Zodiac (who we know were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton. So, I'd take a lot of what he wrote on that thread with a grain of salt. But, I look forward to the link, in case it was a different thread. I'll be curious to find out if Palmer James was also a group member in Greene's back-up group. Curtis Rogers probably was.

There's no link on your post (I can't get there). As a 14 year veteran of Soulful Detroit with almost 13,000 posts, I'm sure I read that thread, originally, and probably participated in it. But, as my memory isn't all it used to be, I'd like to look at the thread again.

I'll be curious to read the answers of anyone with further information. If we could read the pressing codes etched or engraved onto the runouts, it might give us clues to when they were all pressed.

I apologise. I was NOT even attempting to answer your question. I was selfishly asking one of my own (which I have not had answered for many, many years. One thing I CAN tell you is that that Bell record you've scanned was from Bell's very late period (1970-72?), after Colgems had bought Bell Records. It was released several years AFTER Greene's original Hot Line Music Journal records came out. I don't think that the "Al Green" on Bell is rare. I have seen it many times. It may have been Bell's attempt to cash in on Al Greene's Hi Records' success, after he had his first Hi hits, as a re-release of the Hot Line original recordings, which had been leased by Bell when they got the distribution rights, during the mid '60s. Whether or not those lease rights had lapsed before then is an interesting question. With the song "Hot Wire" recorded by People's Choice on Grand Land and Palmer Records, AND Al Green(e) having also recorded that song, AND Al Greene having been from Grand Rapids, Michigan, AND "Grand Land" must have stood for Grand Rapids, AND I now remember that Hot Line Music Journal WAS located in Grand Rapids, AND Palmerton Music was Palmer James' personal music publishing company AND it was the same for Palmer Records, - I'm beginning to think that those rumours that Palmer James WAS, after all, the owner of Palmer Records.

Was Hot Line Music Journal located in Memphis? I had originally thought that Palmer James was the owner of Detroit's Palmer Records. But, I seem to remember later learning that Palmer was the owner's last name. So, maybe Palmer James had no Detroit connection. I know that Al Greene was from The South, so I was surprised when I thought his first record was on a Detroit label. "Back Up Train" sounds like a "Southern" recording (Memphis sounds likely), and NOTHING like a Detroit recording. I'm pretty sure that Greene lived in The South in 1964 and 1965.

I suppose it's ironic. Not as ironic as Tom DePierro having a mint store stock 45 of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)", and his owing me $30,000 US at the time, AND his allowing me to take ANY of his records as "a little compensation", but he probably sold off THAT record to Simon Soussan, AND the most ironic part: (fanfare, please!) is that I like the flip, "Sweeter As The Days Go By" MUCH, MUCH better! No accounting for taste, eh?

You have to remember that there was NO Northern Soul scene at that time, and I was a poor university student with no money, paying my way through university at that time. Fifty cents US to me in 1966 was like £ 100 to you lot now, and there were literally thousands of Soul records I could have bought for from 10-50¢, ALL of which were more valuable and more tradable, AND, which I liked better than the Lester Tipton record (in spite of the fact that I later became his friend). I left literally 1000s of Soul 45s on Herman Griffith's record shop tables, all costing 10¢, just because I couldn't have afforded one more dime. The same type of thing happened to me when Pat's Records, and Sam's Records and other record shops in L.A. and Chicago sold off their stocks. I could have borrowed money to buy them all, and taken a big risk of going into the record business. But that wasn't for me, and I'm glad I didn't end up being a Chris Peake or John Hillyard. I got to see The World for 20 years as an engineer/environmental scientist and economist, and have been a cartoonist for the past 30 years. I wouldn't have traded that for dealing with record collectors for 50 years (no offence intended, I include myself in that lot).

Yes, it was released in 1966, along with the other early LaBeats, according to the pressing plant code, everything I've ever read about it, and Lester, himself. It was ironic that he didn't even have one copy of it. I met him in early 1979, introduced by Tom DePierro. When he found out that I was an active '60s Soul collector, he asked me to find one for him. I never did again find one. But, ironically, I had passed it up in late 1966 or early 1967, when I found many LaBeats in a 2-for $1 bin in a Detroit shop. I bought all The Masqueraders, James Shorter, Nelson Sanders, several Mary Jane and 2 Cool School 45s. Only Al Williams was missing. I didn't buy The Lester Tipton record because I didn't like either side.

That address of 3051 12th Avenue was a private house in the Jefferson Park area of South Los Angeles. Kent Harris probably lived there at the time. Here's the house. It looks the same as it did in the early 1960s (or in the late 1930s, for that matter):

I've asked J (Johnny) Washington's daughter, our questions about the two groups. I hope she'll respond within a few days.

I knew that The Sensations on Way Out were a local Cleveland group. I always thought that The Realistics were a different group from another town in Ohio (Akron? Dayton. Youngstown, Columbus?). The 2 records have all the same names on them. I listened to "Please, Baby Please" many, many times, back to back. I think they are the same exact group on the very same recording. I listen to "Too Shy" many times. The two recordings sound different, and one of the 2 most prominent singers sounds different, but the lead sounds like the same person. It sounds to me as if they are the SAME group on the 2 labels, and that "Please, Baby, Please" was the same recording, but, that "Too Shy" was either re-recorded for De-Lite, or they used an alternate take for the original Way Out recording session. I look forward to others' comments.

It's not listed on Global Dog -only "Real Humdinger". I'm in Munich now. I'll have to wait until I return home to see if I have it myself. Maybe I was only remembering "Real Humdinger, but I don't think so. I'm picturing reading it off the label. My photographic memory doesn't fail me much )although, I wouldn't stake my life on it, as it was almost exactly 50 years ago.

I'm sure I have seen it several times. Of course that was many years ago.

Man - Robert Bateman had an ironic sense of humour, and perhaps, also a bitter taste from his Motown experience. He first "stole" The "Brianbert" name for Motown's production team of Brian Holland and himself, but then, he "stole" the "unofficial" name of Motown's inner core of essential band members or session musicians. I like his style. I was always a big fan of his work at Motown and after. More power to him. We share at least one thing, - fading memories.

I know Stu Bass. He was a regular Detroit session player during the '60s and into the '70s. There were many session players who played on non-Motown Detroit Soul sessions, together with Motown musicians, including some or all of "The Funk Brothers". The Funk Brothers made up only a small portion of all the Motown musicians. Almost ALL the Soul music session players in Detroit played on Motown recordings at one time or another. Many of them did it quite regularly. Dennis Coffey, Ray Monette, Bob Babbitt, Melvin Davis, Don Davis, Dave Hamilton, Bob Hamilton, McKinley Jackson, George McGregor and many people thought as "non=Motown" producers and arrangers played on Motown recording sessions. VERY FEW Detroit Soul recording sessions used exclusively "non-Motown" recording session musicians.

SMC WAS a NY label. B.B. Butler and most of the other names connected worked out of NY. That Clyde Wilson was probably a different guy, working out of NY, as the SMC recording probably took place when Steve Mancha was very active in Detroit.

SMC was a New York label. But that wouldn't prevent them from leasing a Detroit production, nor keep Steve Mancha from recording for a New York label, as did J..J. Barnes (Perception).

Wow! I never realised so many Motown artists sang so many Beatles' songs. The Temptations singing "Hey Jude". I don't think I want to hear that. But, I guess that if Oma Heard can sing a "Merseybeat" song, anything can happen.

I don't think that's ironic at all. Why would a Motown artist want to sing a Beatles' song?

Screamin' Jay Hawkins- "I Put A Spell On You", "Frenzy", "Little Demon", and "Something's Wrong With You".

I don't suppose anyone would define "Happy Ghoul Tide" by Ray Oddis as "Soul"? At least it is "Motown". What about "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" by The Versatones (same Detroit group as on Magic City). What about "People From Another World" by The Jive Five?

Yes. There were some early Motown releases on Indian 78s ( from 1959-1963?). I also think there were a few from the Phillipine Islands.

Most of you already know that I'm old and my short term memory is shot. But now you'd wonder if the doctor would let me out of the asylum. But, it's possible to see only part of the title on the "Look in your Box" page (highlighted 1st thread) , and then, quickly scroll down the posts without looking at the initial post. You would only read the first X number of letters in the thread title each time.