Robbk

Van McCoy sang with a group, - The Starlighters. But, they were together in 1958-60. I think that was too early for that song. He also produced a group called The Four Buddies in 1963-64. But, I don't remember them singing "Hold On". It was too early for The Spellbinders and Chris Bartley & Group. Van, himself, did have many releases, with background singers. But, you'd recognise his voice (sounding very like Chris Bartley). If it was released, I'm sure I have it. But he produced so many individual singers and groups on stray labels on so many one-shot projects, and so many other East Coast artists recorded his songs, that it's difficult to remember where to look in my records. It now rings a bell in my mind that there was another released version. Was it a male group? From the arrangement style and instrumentation, can you tell me a range of years in which it may have been recorded (i.e. 1961-62, or 1959-60)?

Tommy Hunt's version is very nice, as well. Naturally, the song is great - having been written by Van McCoy.

Tommy Hunt sang it on Atlantic 2278. That was released before Marvin Smith's Brunswick release.

I don't have 1007 after all. I have 1001 - 1006: 1001 Heatwaves - "What Price For Love" 1002 Floyd Smith - "When We're In Love" 1002 Marvin L. Sims - "Now I'm In Love With You" 1003 Azie Danfair - "You've Got Everything I Want" 1004 Marvin L. Sims - "(Nina)Have You Seen My Baby" 1005 Marvin L. Sims - "Hurting Inside" 1006 Guys & Dolls - "Looking For A Lover" I know that 1007 CAN'T be another Marvin L. Sims release, as my friend, Bob Pruter stated on his blurb on Sims and Mellow, that he only had 6 cuts released on that label. He stated that Mellow ran from 1965 through 1967. So, it is possible that there was a 1007 released. The number looked familiar, so I had thought I had seen it. But, the fact that I have only 1001-1006, plus 2 1002's, leads me to believe that they may have stopped at 1006. Why do you ask if it exists? Was there a listing of it somewhere? Or a rumour? If so, what artist is supposed to be on it?

That seems to be a familiar-looking number. I think I might have it, or probably have seen it. I'll check it when I return to my Chicago 45s in a few weeks.

ALL the issues looked like Chicago pressings tome (other than the boots). St. Louis DID have a few small pressing plants in the late 1960s. But MOST of their Soul records were pressed in Chicago at that time. I'd be surprised if they recorded the songs in Chicago (which they did), then had them pressed in Chicago, then went back to St. Louis, had some local success there, and got Wise World to press them in St. Louis. I'd guess that all the legit pressing was done in Chicago.

It was around quite a bit.-especially the DJ copies. Special Agent was released before it. It IS her hardest Brunswick to find. But not rare.

Are you referring to percentages of the Surinamers and Dutch people of Surinamse heritage living in The Netherlands? Or percentages of the overall Dutch population (the latter couldn't be possible in my estimation).

That looks very plausible, and appears to be the more likely scenario, rather than a re-issue AFTER the national distribution deal with Bell.

No WONDER I've never seen it. Well, if Green and the group had several boxes of them, how come NOT EVEN ONE has ever surfaced? How did a 1966, or '67 record label owner in Grand Rapids not know about Ric Williams' Chicago Zodiac, who had been recording around half of their cuts, to that point, in Detroit? I still have pertinent unanswered questions about Grand Rapids' Zodiac Records.

AHA! THAT is why Green referred to the records being "Black". I DO remember a black '60s Zodiac label (just didn't remember it having been from Grand Rapids. I also seem to remember a black one from New York, and a black one from The East Coast from the 1950s.

Weren't there Northern Soul clubs in Glasgow? Wouldn't they be farther north than any in England, and even those in Edinburgh? Were there any NS clubs in The Shetlands? If Scotland secedes, The Shetlands, Orkneys and Faroes should be federated with Iceland, to lower the % of alcoholics in that nation's population.

I am sorry to contradict people who say there is "evidence" to the opposite of my ears and knowledge of what went down, generally during the mid-to-late '60s in Chicago and Detroit. And, I agree that Al Greene's description of the joy of seeing his own work in a professional state for the first time has "the ring of truth" in it. But, I have never heard of Fred Bridges being anything but totally honest, and never heard of his memory failing. In addition, I've heard from several other sources, that The Brothers of Soul were singing on the 2 Creations' Zodiac cuts, and of course, THEY (not Greene and his group) were the writers. Both songs sound like their writing, and the instrumentals sound like their Detroit-recorded cuts. My best guess is that Ric Williams liked Green's group sound, signed them to a contract, and booked a recording session. They got a pair of songs from Bridges, Knight and Eaton, who had written many songs for Zodiac, Aquarius, Boo Records for Williams. In rehearsals, Williams found that the young group wasn't ready. He decided he didn't like their sound on the 2 songs. Bridges, as co-producer was at the session, as probably were also knight and Eaton. Williams had heard and liked The Brothers of Soul on their demos of the songs. Maybe he erased Green's leads on both songs and kept the kid group's background vocals, and just replaced the leads with Bridges on one side, and Knight ,(or was it Eaton) on the other. If so, he would have paid the kid group for their background work on the session, and sent them copies of "their" record, as they participated on it, and it was their first professional release. It's a plausible theory. But, really, I don't hear the "Back Up Train" group on those 2 cuts, and I DO hear the Brothers of Soul on it.

What about the writer's version - Gordon Lightfoot? I like Spyder Turner's Detroit Soul version best.

I believe Fred Bridges on this one. He's stated many times that his Brothers of Soul sang the songs that were released as The Creations. Perhaps Al Green and his group were slated to sing Bridges', Knight's and Eaton's two songs for Zodiac Records, and Ric Williams didn't like their singing, but liked Fred's Brothers of Soul on their demo of their song, so he had them cut it at the session, and used that better version? If I remember correctly. Fred said that they recorded those 2 cuts at United Sound, in Detroit. I believe that, given the sound of the musicians on those 2 cuts. Clearly, they included several Motown regulars, and probably several of the regular non-Motown guys, George McGregor, Melvin Davis, Don Davis, McKinley Jackson, etc. I doubt that Hot Line recorded Al Green's group at United Sound. I don't hear the regular Detroit session players on "Back Up Train" and "Don't Leave Me". "A Dream" and "Footsteps" were both written by Bridges, Knight and Eaton, and The Creations sound like them. It's possible that Green's group DID sign a contract with Ric Williams, but also likely that they didn't get a release. We've seen many, many cases in which a given group was slated to record certain songs in a session, and the producer didn't like their first few tries at it, and substituted a different lead, or, more often, a different group, and went on with the session. That's how Edwin Starr sang "I'll love You Forever" instead of The Holidays' lead singer.

I did a search on Soulful Detroit Forum Archives and found a thread about Al Green(e) and Hot Line Music Journal Records. The basic thread information on those 2 subjects was provided by my old friend Ian Melia. He's a good guy. BUT, he is not a professional researcher. He takes things he reads on The Internet, and doesn't research them, to verify. Also, sometimes he takes things out of context. There were several errors in what he wrote about Al Greene's group history. Off the top of my head, he stated that Al Greene and his Hot Line group also recorded as The Creations' cuts on Zodiac (who we know were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton. So, I'd take a lot of what he wrote on that thread with a grain of salt. But, I look forward to the link, in case it was a different thread. I'll be curious to find out if Palmer James was also a group member in Greene's back-up group. Curtis Rogers probably was.

There's no link on your post (I can't get there). As a 14 year veteran of Soulful Detroit with almost 13,000 posts, I'm sure I read that thread, originally, and probably participated in it. But, as my memory isn't all it used to be, I'd like to look at the thread again.

I'll be curious to read the answers of anyone with further information. If we could read the pressing codes etched or engraved onto the runouts, it might give us clues to when they were all pressed.

I apologise. I was NOT even attempting to answer your question. I was selfishly asking one of my own (which I have not had answered for many, many years. One thing I CAN tell you is that that Bell record you've scanned was from Bell's very late period (1970-72?), after Colgems had bought Bell Records. It was released several years AFTER Greene's original Hot Line Music Journal records came out. I don't think that the "Al Green" on Bell is rare. I have seen it many times. It may have been Bell's attempt to cash in on Al Greene's Hi Records' success, after he had his first Hi hits, as a re-release of the Hot Line original recordings, which had been leased by Bell when they got the distribution rights, during the mid '60s. Whether or not those lease rights had lapsed before then is an interesting question. With the song "Hot Wire" recorded by People's Choice on Grand Land and Palmer Records, AND Al Green(e) having also recorded that song, AND Al Greene having been from Grand Rapids, Michigan, AND "Grand Land" must have stood for Grand Rapids, AND I now remember that Hot Line Music Journal WAS located in Grand Rapids, AND Palmerton Music was Palmer James' personal music publishing company AND it was the same for Palmer Records, - I'm beginning to think that those rumours that Palmer James WAS, after all, the owner of Palmer Records.

Was Hot Line Music Journal located in Memphis? I had originally thought that Palmer James was the owner of Detroit's Palmer Records. But, I seem to remember later learning that Palmer was the owner's last name. So, maybe Palmer James had no Detroit connection. I know that Al Greene was from The South, so I was surprised when I thought his first record was on a Detroit label. "Back Up Train" sounds like a "Southern" recording (Memphis sounds likely), and NOTHING like a Detroit recording. I'm pretty sure that Greene lived in The South in 1964 and 1965.

I suppose it's ironic. Not as ironic as Tom DePierro having a mint store stock 45 of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)", and his owing me $30,000 US at the time, AND his allowing me to take ANY of his records as "a little compensation", but he probably sold off THAT record to Simon Soussan, AND the most ironic part: (fanfare, please!) is that I like the flip, "Sweeter As The Days Go By" MUCH, MUCH better! No accounting for taste, eh?

You have to remember that there was NO Northern Soul scene at that time, and I was a poor university student with no money, paying my way through university at that time. Fifty cents US to me in 1966 was like £ 100 to you lot now, and there were literally thousands of Soul records I could have bought for from 10-50¢, ALL of which were more valuable and more tradable, AND, which I liked better than the Lester Tipton record (in spite of the fact that I later became his friend). I left literally 1000s of Soul 45s on Herman Griffith's record shop tables, all costing 10¢, just because I couldn't have afforded one more dime. The same type of thing happened to me when Pat's Records, and Sam's Records and other record shops in L.A. and Chicago sold off their stocks. I could have borrowed money to buy them all, and taken a big risk of going into the record business. But that wasn't for me, and I'm glad I didn't end up being a Chris Peake or John Hillyard. I got to see The World for 20 years as an engineer/environmental scientist and economist, and have been a cartoonist for the past 30 years. I wouldn't have traded that for dealing with record collectors for 50 years (no offence intended, I include myself in that lot).

Yes, it was released in 1966, along with the other early LaBeats, according to the pressing plant code, everything I've ever read about it, and Lester, himself. It was ironic that he didn't even have one copy of it. I met him in early 1979, introduced by Tom DePierro. When he found out that I was an active '60s Soul collector, he asked me to find one for him. I never did again find one. But, ironically, I had passed it up in late 1966 or early 1967, when I found many LaBeats in a 2-for $1 bin in a Detroit shop. I bought all The Masqueraders, James Shorter, Nelson Sanders, several Mary Jane and 2 Cool School 45s. Only Al Williams was missing. I didn't buy The Lester Tipton record because I didn't like either side.

That address of 3051 12th Avenue was a private house in the Jefferson Park area of South Los Angeles. Kent Harris probably lived there at the time. Here's the house. It looks the same as it did in the early 1960s (or in the late 1930s, for that matter):

I've asked J (Johnny) Washington's daughter, our questions about the two groups. I hope she'll respond within a few days.