Robbk

Here is a link to the Stone Agate BMI listing for "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" (changed from the earlier, Jobete Music): https://repertoire.bmi.com/TitleSearch.asp?querytype=WorkName&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&keyname=Tears%20Nobody%20And%20A%20Smile&blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=False&blnAltTitles=False It was written by George Kerr, Sidney Barnes and Luke Gross for Jobete Music, in mid 1963. Clearly, the lead singer is Luke Gross (or whichever group member sang the leads regularly before Timothy Wilson (same lead as on "Never Let Me Go" , and "I'll Cry Tomorrow". It's rights are still held by the Jobete/Stone Agate catalogue. So, does that make it usable by Universal? Can't we get Sidney Barnes to confirm that his Serenaders' group sang it as the Jobete demonstration recording? If so, wouldn't those 2 elements be enough for Universal to release it themselves, and/or to lease it to Ace/Kent or any of their other CD producing lessees?

What bad news! They were ALL 3 on Jobete Music acetates, made to prove ownership of their publishing rights. THAT indicates that they had already been bought by Motown. Shouldn't they be listed among Jobete's published songs? The lead singer of "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" was, clearly, The Serenaders other lead (than Timothy Wilson). The rest of the singers sound like The Serenaders. As they were not listed in The Serenaders' Detroit recirding session, I assume that the vocals were recorded in New York. But, I still contend that the backing tracks were recorded in Detroit. So, the session for those tracks should be listed around mid 1963. Sidney Barnes is still alive. Is George Kerr? Is Timothy Wilson? Can't we contact them and see if they know of any documentation?

A very nice Soul label with a bizarre combination of rough Soul and sweet Soul for various L.A. producers, thrown together with classy, sweet Philadelphia productions by Jerry Ragovoy. My favourites are The Enchanters and Apollas.

Of course that's the same Joe Moore. That's why I mentioned him! Gene Toones could have been brought to The True Glow Town Group by Jesse Herring. OR, it could have been a Simco Production leased to TNT or Toote Town or True Glow Town. I doubt that it was released on Simco first.

Not Northern Soul, but, the first look-alike facsimile boots I can remember were made for the R&B vocal group harmony collectors in late 1959-1960. They continued through the beginning of the 1980s. An early set I remember is the Flamingos' three releases on Parrot Records, with everything looking perfect (colour, font, printing quality, record thickness, rounded lip, etc. The only giveaways were the tightness of the grooves in the trail, and "Bronxville" (a district in New York", replacing the "Bronzeville" (a SouthSide ghetto district in Chicago) in the exact same place with exact same font, on the label. They were amazingly well made, and are now prized by collectors (I have them), as the 1953-54 originals are virtually impossible to obtain in any decent condition. The oldest boots I've seen for The Northern Scene started appearing in the early 1970s (maybe 1973?).

No, we never found a tape for "Tears, Nobody, and a Smile". We just had a Jobete acetate of it. I doubt that it was recorded in New York, the track has Motown Musicians playing on it. I have read from a quote by one of the group, (either George Kerr, Sidney Barnes or Timothy Wilson) that they were taken to Detroit and did a session there (about 5-6 songs). With the 2 cuts released on VIP, "Say, Say Baby", surely this one was one of that handful. It sounds the most Detroitish and Motownish of them all. That plunky piano must have been Joe Hunter. On Miss Ray "discovering" The Serenaders, - that's a VERY loose term, in this case. I've read from several sources that George Kerr and Sidney Barnes (separate interviews with both) answered Jobete Music New York's startup advert, in late spring, 1963, for songwriters and demo recording producers. They were hired. Their own group, The Serenaders, was brought along, as a group to sing demos, just as George Cinton brought in his Parliaments. The Serenaders were hardly unknown. They had had an East Coast regional hit with "Never Let Me Go" on Chock Full of Hits in late 1959-1960, and had a current regional hit out on Riverside in spring/summer 1963 ("Adios My Love"). They had sung in local clubs in The New York/New Jersey Metro Area all along.

Gene Toones has Galrek Music, but it was produced by Jesse Herring, who was also A&R man with Toote Town/True Glow Town/TNT/Swa-Ray. The only thing they have in common with Simco is Jesse Herring's involvement. If Galrek Music is his ALONE, then, they certainly weren't the same operation. I think that this latter scenario is more likely than Simpson having anything to do with the Toot/Toote Town/True Glow Town/TNT/Swa-Ray label group. which seem to have involved Jesse Herring, Joe Moore, and probably a money owner, other than Simpson.

Hey Rod - Remember my asking you why Bob Wagner had the nickname, "Danny Wagner"? Clearly, he must have been called that because of "I Lost A True Love". Sort of a similar situation to people calling me "Calvin".

NOTHING got dumped in the move to L.A. The people in charge of the tapes library saw to that, and made sure that the movers were very careful with it all. They had it catalogued in an extremely orderly fashion, so it remained intact, and was set up in L.A. in an orderly arrangement within a few weeks. It was in a climate-controlled room (cool and relatively dry -but not too dry). It was among the more orderly archives I've seen. But, of course, in being used by many, there were items checked out, and some misplaced (e.g. placed in the wrong place/out of order). Simon Soussan spent many days in our offices sporadically, (from 1977-1983), both at Motown and Airwave, browsing through our record files. He ended up with a LOT of Northern Soul records. I think it is more likely that he bought them from Tom, rather than "lifting them". Tom was always needing cash, and I think most of that money gained from those sales, while we were still at Motown, helped him put money together to start Airwave. The sales at airwave helped him have some cash to continue going, as distributors didn't pay us, even when our Delia Renee release sold pretty well.

You are correct that Simco was a small, short-lived label. I doubt that you'll find a written discography of that label. The best place in The World to obtain such a thing would be right here on this website. We can do it by having our members participate with what they have individually (and have seen). We did that on The Soulful Detroit Forum for several obscure Detroit labels, and those discographies are (would have been) currently, the most complete in existence. Unfortunately, the threads that contained most of them were lost in 2007, during the transfer of the forum's data to a larger platform. I'll start with what I know: First, I'm assuming that you are talking about The Simco Records which operated from New York in the mid 1960s. It should be differentiated from the Simco with the black label, which operated in the late 1950s (and early '60s?). It probably was owned by a man named R. Simpson, possibly co-owned by A & R man, Jesse Herring. Galrek Music may have been Herring's alone, or their partnership. I have Simco 30,3001 - Sandy Wynns - "I'll Give That To You" / "You Turned Your Back On Me" Black print on white label, -no indication of being a DJ-Distributed by Bell. I have seen a couple others. I think I remember having seen one by Tobi Legend. I can't remember the other one or 2 All 3 were black print on white label with no indication of being a DJ. They all were pressed in New York at the plant owned by Shelly, on styrene, with labels that fall off easily.

I met Tom DePierro there in early 1974. Someone told him I was a big Motown collector. He liked my taste in music. We became friends. I showed him where he could find good R & B and Soul records in the L.A. area. I hung out at Motown, while not overseas on UN jobs. In 1976, we suggested that Motown should release the best of its vaulted recordings. I was taken on as a consultant on the project. It was general, at first, and soon got formalised as the "From The Vaults" project. At first, it was expected that it would start with 5 LPs on Motown, and if they sold well, there would be 5 more. I guess there were people there that didn't have much faith that there was a market for that old unreleased music. We ended op getting only 1 LP out on the recently-started budget label, Natural Resources, and NO marketing push or exposure, whatsoever. It was doomed to failure. They did put out 2 more LPs after Tom and I left (starting Airwave Records). One was released in 1981, and one in 1982 (with different series names). They used only unreleased songs from major artists, except a Monitors, a Kim Weston. and a Spinners (only because of their Atlantic success). More of our work got used when lots of unreleased cuts got onto Motown's 25th Anniversary albums from 1984. "Say, Say Baby" by The Serenaders and "This Ole Heart" by The Five Quails, both on this new Ace CD, represent the last of our chosen cuts to make it to legitimate release, unless "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" by The Serenaders has still not made it (although I believe it has). Even The Pronouns and many of the other Motown Gospel I suggested make up one special album, have at least, made it to digital release.

Very impressive song list. That took some digging in The Vault. It reminds me of my days there. Finally, almost all the songs we slated for release have made it to plastic, CD or Digital release.

They start even earlier than that in the early 1960s, in the 50,000s. 90,000 is already 1964.

With a ZTSC number in the 96700s, it would have been released in mid 1964.

I think this is the same Pageants that had several releases on Philadelphia labels, although Joe Davis operated out of New York. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the recordings on both acetates were pressed up and released on some small New York labels.

I think they are just different pressing plants. Rainbow top Symbol 216 - East Coast - 66 SY-277 - mid 1966 (RCA NY?). Orange top Symbol 216 - Delta 62385 - July, 1966 - Monarch Pressing Plant, L.A. Same time. I don't remember one style pressing earlier than the other. I bought the rainbow copy in Chicago new, and saw the orange, West Coast pressing in L.A. one month later.

That's the song sung by Santana that I've heard, that I like most. But, I don't like listening to it. But, then, I'd only ever heard one song by Sanyana before today (their mega hit-I can't even remember its name, but it MUST have been a mega monster hit if I've heard it at all, not having listened to radio since 1966). My favourite versions: 1 - Impressions 2 - Major Lance 3 - Jerry Butler distant 4- Five Stairsteps

It could well be a facsimile boot. Post a scan of it. The original should have thicker plastic and a different thread on the trailer.

What's interesting about this record is that "Crazy For You" is a Jobete Music song (from the L,A. office, of course.

Yes. But didn't virtually ALL of those outside clients that used The Chicago Office come from The Upper Midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Missouri and Iowa. We were always told that almost all, if not all, were pressed at Terre Haute.

Yes, now I realise that Capitol never used that typeface. Why would anyone do that? They could have taken a screen shot of the Samar record (several of which are on The Internet. I should have recognised Capitol 5969. That's one of my favourites.

I have recently seen a Capitol 5969 on You Tube playing the Samar cut. Interestingly enough, it lists Chicago's Phil Wright as arranger (but was really arranged by Bert DeCoteaux in New York), and lists Chicago's Carone Productions. But the record looks like a genuine Capitol pressing from the late '60s. I picked up the Samar release in the late '60s. I certainly know it was a New York production. It was written by East Coast writer, Bob Stone. They also changed the writers to 2 people (albeit New Yorkers). In ALL my years of record scrounging, never saw the Capitol. Is it a British Bootleg? -made during the time that record was still "covered up" on The Northern Scene?

I'm sure I've seen an original orange pressing, as well.

Interesting! It was originally on that small (L.A.?) label, and leased by Mira, and sold some. The original must be quite rare, as I had never seen it, despite looking over massive L.A. 45 stocks between 1965 and 1972.

I went to Van McCoy's website, and played "Hold On" on his song list. They have a DIFFERENT song listed as "Hold On", sung by a group, which has those words sung in the song, and sounds like it was written and arranged by Van. But, the words are so different, you couldn't mistake it for Marvin Smith's song. I still think, now, that I remember another version of the Marvin Smith song. But can't remember who sang it, so I can't look it up in my records.