boba

Rob Klein, who isn't on this forum but who is on soulfuldetroit soul-talk and some other forums, was an artist at motown (I think he did LP cover art) in the 60s. He would probably be a good person to answer your question...

Marc, this is an ohio group, the group members are known.

It says on the liner notes on the back of the wax poetics reissue that the Mizell's (who again were not members of the group) promoted the 45 in detroit and DC. Unfortunately, not in Chicago, so I'll probably never get a copy .

no, they are all chicago pressings

Can anyone post audio of either side of the tropics record posted above? Thanks

I pulled out my gordon keith records. I have Steeltown 688 - Gordon Keith - I'll try to please you / inst. I also have Steeltown GK1981 - Tell the story / Don't take my kindness for weakness The second title is from 1981, I doubt it was released as the flip of an early 70s record.

haha, yeah, it's funny you now posted the item you're bidding on. don't worry, I'm now past bidding on lots of records and blow my money on individual expensive records unfortunately. that seller had the montiques up when he first started listing vinyl (I think he's just dumping his collection), I was the 2nd bidder unfortunately.

I don't know why it doesn't say it on your screenshot (maybe something about ebay UK), but whenever I click to look at bid history it says exactly what the deal is (I just copied and pasted from the bid history screen): To help keep the eBay community safe, enhance bidder privacy, and protect our members from fraudulent emails, eBay has changed how User IDs display on the bid history page. Only you and the seller of the item can view your User ID, all other members will see anonymous user IDs, such as x***y.

he mixes in 'repros' (aka doowop bootlegs) with his originals and tries to confuse the buyer with some BS about how you're an idiot if you don't know what 'deadwax markings' are and that you should not ask him if the record is an original or not. He also used to have all his auctions as private so that no one could warn potential bidders about the fraud, although that is a non-issue now that ebay hides bidder identities.

the flip of this is a fantastic doowopy group soul cut, it grew on me even though I usually wouldn't like the sound. this constellations has no connection to the chicago group (who ended up going to new york and recording on gemini star, etc. ), this group is from Ohio.

I apologize if my tone came off as rude, I was also not trying to be rude. Thanks.

Thanks so much for supporting my show and the other people's shows on here. It's good to know that people are listening. The love potion are from new york and cut a few doowop records. The record I played was originally released as the joytones on coed and later released as the love potion on kapp. The inner circles is a rare cleveland record. The flip is a psychedelic instrumental that is indemand with funk collectors. The other record on that label is the first record by the elements, which is also really good. The brown sugar inc. is from north carolina, I think they have a couple other records but no other group soul cuts. The aristocrats are from Louisville, KY. The track is a dramatics cover (it's the flip of 'get up and get down'). The group toured as the moonglows in the 80s (harvey fuqua and the moonglows are also from louisville). All the group members are dead now. There is a second aristocrats on rondo that is a collectible funk 45 but it's not the vocal group, it's just an extra track the band cut during the session. Jonah's whale is from seattle, the record I played is a dells cover. Their other record is actually a much better sweet soul cut. There are some pretty ridiculous pictures of the group here: https://pnwbands.com/jonahswhale.html That double trouble record is a very obscure cincinatti record, pilot master is an AMG label subsidiary. It ends with a crappy guitar jam that I faded out. it's great up until that point. The executive four 45 is from toledo, the flip is actually better, it's good sweet soul that i'll maybe play in a future show. the image have a slightly more common but still good 45 on janus called 'betcha didn't know.' lead is charles russell, who is from texas (previously sang with the four dudes / three dudes) and who ended up in LA singing as the new image.

didn't Manship have some weird withdrawn number on auction recently? Also, didn't Scott Cheesebrew (ebay user id soul_digger) have a bunch of weird mowest test presses on ebay recently, some of which were unreleased? I don't know if that info is also included in the info above.

OK, I finally got home and looked at my records and reviewed John's evidence. The main reason I thought the plain label press was not a first press is because they had already switched to the zodiac logo and I do not understand why they would switch back. Specifically, I have only ever seen the 1003# as this weird black zodiac label. I don't think it was ever on a plain label. #1004, Casanova, was by far the biggest hit on the label. I have never seen it on a plain label. I always see it with the regular blue zodiac label: although I have found it on this weird inbetween sort of label: By the time 1005 came out, I would imagine they would have already permanently switched to the zodiac signs label. However, the real reason I assumed it was a reissue was that I have #1020 on this other weird plain label (in addition to the much more common zodiac signs label): This plain label I definitely think is a reissue. I never looked closely and always thought my #1005 was on this same style of plain label, which would make me think it's definitely a reissue. However, I pulled out my #1005 and it's definitely the same as one of John's scans: As John notes, it is exactly the same label design as the earlier red label. Mine does have the same ZTSC # as the one with the signs but scrated and not stamped as John notes. I guess I am mostly convinced that John is correct at this point, although it's impossible to tell 100%. I do agree that the plain logo is rarer either way, although I initially assumed it was rarer because most local represses are rarer than the original. Also, here is another variation not noted above. I have #1005 with the signs label that John posted a scan of, but I also have it with this larger font: Sorry to cause any confusion. thanks, Bob

Rob, I honestly can't believe you're arguing against me at this point. There was even an extensive interview with the Mizell Brothers in wax poetics where they say they don't remember the group members. Why would they say that if they were members of the group themselves? The wax poetics reissue has liner notes in the back describing the story too, so if a magazine somehow reviewed the single and said that the Mizell brothers (who RELEASED the record but who were not members of the group) were in the group, that is not a well written magazine. Also, I left this off of my original post, but Mark Greene told me that the 4 guys in the photo are the members singing on the first moments stang 45 "not on the outside" -- there was no ray goodman or brown on that record at all. I will do a radio interview so you can hear it from the source, but it seems silly that you quoting a magazine's review of a reissue that somehow contradicts the text on the back of the picture sleeve of the reissue itself, as well as other far-from-primary sources, somehow trumps a discussion with an actual group member who remembers the tracks, who sang on it, the producers they worked with, etc. I understand that not every thing that an artist says may be fact, but it clearly is much more factual than a 4th hand review of a record single. The references you quote are wrong because they are all repeating the same misinformation, and all contact with the actual sources (including interviews with Larry and Fonce Mizell) directly contradict what you are saying.

Hi Rob. So are you saying that the person I talked to who was a member of the group who told me the other members and who has a photo of the group and who remembers who sang lead on the record is wrong? The same person who even talks about their producer Freddie Perrin on their webpage? Are you also saying that US collectors who owned the record previous to 1993 did not really own the record? And are you also saying that the recent wax poetics reissue of the record where they interviewed the Mizell brothers where even they remembered that they were signed to Stang and the Robinsons' changed the lineup is also wrong?

dylan, you would definitely be into the 3rd world "sure as the stars" shine cut if you don't know it, it's a very nice deep sounding sweet soul cut

I just talked to Mark Greene for a while. The people in this photo ARE the moments on hog: https://themomentsfeaturingmarkgreene.com/home.html They were a DC group. He told me he joined right after the Hog 45 was recorded, so it was 3 members on the Hog release, Eric Olfus sang lead. He told me that although he left the stang group early on, that John Morgan from the Hog group was actually a member of the stang group until about 1972 (there were 4 members, along with Ray, Goodman, and Brown). Eric Olfus also sings lead on the Leaders "Anyone Can" on Stax, which, if you read the webpage, are essentially the hog group... Anyways, I'm just sharing, I'm going to try to do a phone interview with Mark a week from Sunday and post it up here. It's interesting that they ultimately WERE connected to the stang group. Thanks.

diplomats perfect love was never released except on a kent CD. They later did a slower version of the song that was released on 45 on the 3rd world label, it was titled "sure as the stars shine"

Hi. The posted label scans are convincing I think I was wrong. Also, the paper used (light blue) matches the final creations on globe which came out before the zodiac 45. I have to look at my records when I get home, I thought I had a different type of "blank label" that was later, I will follow up when I get home. Thanks.

Maybe because the value is based on wrong information about it being an earlier press when it's not? You're making a circular argument.

i doubt that this is true, I think the plain label is probably a later press and the signs label is the first press. the signs label is definitely a chicago press too, it was a chicago label and pressed in chicago.

anyone got a recording of the kenard "garden of eden" press so I can compare? Thanks.

is the garden of eden side the same recording as the entertainers iv or is it a different recording of the same song?

your only two posts on this forum are promoting this group and your post contains a huge obnoxious ad and a link to buy